Interaction with Dead

[cloudyday2]

The Christian answer should be to attribute these situations to the works of the Satanic world. A rule I was taught in this regard is that if a supernatural event is not clearly, overtly attributable to God, as revealed in the bible, then it is satanic by default.

Thanks. So what would that mean in practice? "clearly, overtly attributable to God, as revealed in the bible"

 

[dcalling]

There is a story in Bible about Saul seeks dead spirits (Samuel), so it pretty much confirms we can interacts with the dead.

I have heard a lot of stories of this, some good some bad, but most importantly, the dead can't affect us much

 

[oi_antz]

There is a story in Bible about Saul seeks dead spirits (Samuel), so it pretty much confirms we can interacts with the dead.

To balance the assumption proposed here, it is important to note that some scholars read this as being demonic rather than a real consultation with the prophet Samuel. The following article explains this view quite well:

http://biblelight.net/witch_of_endor.htm

 

[dcalling]

To balance the assumption proposed here, it is important to note that some scholars read this as being demonic rather than a real consultation with the prophet Samuel. The following article explains this view quite well:

http://biblelight.net/witch_of_endor.htm

That is very interesting, and it could well not be Samuel's ghost. I have heard stories that some people have familars or spirits and they use them to tell fortune, and usually they can tell the past accurately but not the future, a sure sign that those are not from God (and that God condemns those kind of things)

Thanks for the help!!! Learned something new !!!

 

[cloudyday2]

I used to be Eastern Orthodox, and there were stories of saints appearing and aiding people. Whether or not the stories are true, many believe these stories. It seems that if you believe a saint can walk the earth then you should believe that deceased loved ones can too. Saints are just deceased Christians that the church decided to honor. All deceased Christians are saints, so they should all be able to help people if this is possible for the official saints.

Hopefully some of the denominations with saints will give an opinion?

 

[Albion]

I've heard many personal anecdotes about dead relatives or friends appearing to the living and sometimes even helping them. Of course a grieving person often hallucinates, but sometimes the details make it harder to explain as a hallucination.

Just curious what the various types of Christians think.

It's hard to dispel completely the many reports of ghostly events, but whether or not there is anything to it, we aren't to pray to the dead, worship them, negotiate with them, or anything like that. Moreover, not only do we have no reason to think they can hear us, but there's even less likelihood that they could do anything about it.

 

[cloudyday2]

Another couple of things to consider:

(1) During the transfiguration, Moses and Elijah appear to several of the disciples. If they had not been so terrified, could they have interacted? Granted this is a special case.

(2) I had understood that Communion unites all Christians living and dead. That seems to contradict the chasm separating deceased Christians from the living, although it is a special case again.

 

[Albion]

I had understood that Communion unites all Christians living and dead. That seems to contradict the chasm separating deceased Christians from the living, although it is a special case again.

That's only a concept--that all believers, living and dead, are part of what some call the "mystical body of Christ" or the Creed calls the "Communion of saints" or Protestants are likely to call "The invisible church." It's not as though they all get together for the Divine Liturgy.

 

[South Bound]

Deuteronomy 18:9-13 is about seeking some interaction through a medium. That's a bit different.
Luke 16:26 is about a gulf between heaven and hell. That doesn't mean there is a gulf between heaven and earth.

Of course some denominations believe in "soul sleep" where the soul requires a resurrected body that isn't available until the second coming. That belief makes interaction with dead loved ones impossible. Of course Catholics and others who ask saints to intercede probably don't believe in "soul sleep".

This is a good example of why I don't usually respond to atheists. Do you want to know what Christianity teaches? Or do you want to argue and tell us how you know our religion better than we do, when many of us have been studying the Bible longer than you've been alive?

 

[mmksparbud]

The word saint in the bible does not mean the dead in heaven---it means those consecrated to God. Fellow Christians were referred to as saints.


(Psa 115:17) The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

(Ecc 9:5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
(Isa 8:19) And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
(Act 2:29) Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
(Act 2:29) Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
(Mat 22:32) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

If you take the word of God for what it says, then there can be no communication between the living and the dead.
Satan can appear as many things, from a snake to an angel of light--they can impersonate anyone, from Adam and 'eve on down--they've been there and seen everyone and known them just as God's angels have ben there and known us. It's no big deal for the evil ones to impersonate anyone , from the beginning of time they've been around and have been there for them to know many of the secrets of our past friends and relatives---of anyone. You either believe what the bible says or not, I guess. Satan can wreck havoc with our senses. If we let him--if we believe him instead of God--he has been telling the same lie from the beginning--
(Gen 3:4) And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Now it's we don't die, we go to heaven or hell forever. Doesn't matter God says He gives eternal life to the saved, now Satan says God gives it to the lost also, the stay alive in hell forever.



long ago re

 

[cloudyday2]

The word saint in the bible does not mean the dead in heaven---it means those consecrated to God. Fellow Christians were referred to as saints.

Thanks, that is true.

Now it's we don't die, we go to heaven or hell forever. Doesn't matter God says He gives eternal life to the saved, now Satan says God gives it to the lost also, the stay alive in hell forever.

Sounds like you don't believe in "soul sleep", the belief that spirit requires body and therefore we can't live until our bodies are resurrected at the second coming?

So how about if I ask: Can people who have gone to heaven interact with people on Earth?

 

[cloudyday2]

This is a good example of why I don't usually respond to atheists. Do you want to know what Christianity teaches? Or do you want to argue and tell us how you know our religion better than we do, when many of us have been studying the Bible longer than you've been alive?

I enjoy learning what various denominations believe. When I was a Christian, I didn't rule-out the possibility that dead people might return to help us at times. There are many stories of this happening. My extended family members have apparently experienced this. So I was intrigued to learn that many Christians believe this is impossible. I wanted to understand their reasoning.

 

[South Bound]

I enjoy learning what various denominations believe

Then learn. But don't do the bait and switch where you ask a question and then, when we answer in good faith, believing you're sincere, you just argue with us and tell us how you know more about our religion than we do.

 

[cloudyday2]

Then learn. But don't do the bait and switch where you ask a question and then, when we answer in good faith, believing you're sincere, you just argue with us and tell us how you know more about our religion than we do.

Where did I say: "I know more about Christianity than all of you"?

Asking follow-up questions is permissible. I was trying to clarify that I did not mean using mediums to contact the dead; I meant when the dead apparently appear to us at unexpected times to comfort us, protect us, etc. I also was trying to solicit a variety of opinions. Your opinion is only yours. I want to hear other opinions too.

 

[mmksparbud]

Thanks, that is true.



Sounds like you don't believe in "soul sleep", the belief that spirit requires body and therefore we can't live until our bodies are resurrected at the second coming?

So how about if I ask: Can people who have gone to heaven interact with people on Earth?

People refer to this as soul sleep--I just say I believe what the bible says--the dead are dead, they are not communicating with the living because they can't. Re-read those verses. They do not praise God, David is not in heaven, the dead are dead. Christ referred to the dead as asleep several times. It is not that God requires a body for us to be resurrected to, He can provide a body. Not a big deal to Him. But the bible states that the dead know not anything so how can thy interact with us? There is no living in hell forever. Eternal life is for the saved not lost. There has to be a judgment before there is a reward or punishment. After the judgment the lost are NOT given eternal life, they then get the 2nd death--permanent death, eternal death, not eternal dying.

 

[cloudyday2]

People refer to this as soul sleep--I just say I believe what the bible says--the dead are dead, they are not communicating with the living because they can't. Re-read those verses. They do not praise God, David is not in heaven, the dead are dead. Christ referred to the dead as asleep several times. It is not that God requires a body for us to be resurrected to, He can provide a body. Not a big deal to Him. But the bible states that the dead know not anything so how can thy interact with us? There is no living in hell forever. Eternal life is for the saved not lost. There has to be a judgment before there is a reward or punishment. After the judgment the lost are NOT given eternal life, they then get the 2nd death--permanent death, eternal death, not eternal dying.

I'm a bit confused by your quote of "(Mat 22:32) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." I had always understood this to mean than Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob must be living not dead. This is why I thought you disagreed with "soul sleep". Apparently you do agree with "soul sleep" unless I misunderstand. So obviously you have a different understanding of Mat 22:32.

 

[cloudyday2]

Another interesting case is the Virgin Mary. Aside from the tradition of the Virgin Mary helping people, there is also the tradition of her exceptional departure from Earth. I know that not all Christians believe in these things, but I was hoping to hear their opinions too.

The Orthodox Church specifically holds one of two Roman Catholic alternative beliefs, teaching that Mary died a natural death, like any human being; that her soul was received by Christ upon death; and that her body was resurrected on the third day after her repose, at which time she was taken up, bodily only, into heaven when the apostles, miraculously transported from the ends of the earth, found her tomb to be empty.[14]

While some Roman Catholics agree with the Orthodox that this happened after Mary's death, others hold that she did not experience death and she was "assumed" into heaven in bodily form, just as her son Jesus ascended. However, Pope Pius XII alludes to the fact of her death at least five times, but left open the question of whether or not Mary actually underwent death in connection with her departure, in his Apostolic constitution, Munificentissimus Deus (1950), which dogmatically defined ex cathedra (i.e., infallibly) the Assumption.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dormition_of_the_Mother_of_God

 

[mmksparbud]

I'm a bit confused by your quote of "(Mat 22:32) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." I had always understood this to mean than Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob must be living not dead. This is why I thought you disagreed with "soul sleep". Apparently you do agree with "soul sleep" unless I misunderstand. So obviously you have a different understanding of Mat 22:32.

Yep--I prefer to gather all the verses about a subject and put them together and see what they add up to. You can't dismiss 20 verses that say one thing, for one verse that MAY imply something else. See how the one verse can fit in with the rest. I like doing word searches---look up a word and see what the verses say, plus the variants of that word.

 

[cloudyday2]

EDIT: sorry I posted in the wrong thread. I haven't finished my coffee yet this morning. LOL

 

[dcalling]

I used to be Eastern Orthodox, and there were stories of saints appearing and aiding people. Whether or not the stories are true, many believe these stories. It seems that if you believe a saint can walk the earth then you should believe that deceased loved ones can too. Saints are just deceased Christians that the church decided to honor. All deceased Christians are saints, so they should all be able to help people if this is possible for the official saints.

Hopefully some of the denominations with saints will give an opinion?

Some of those stories might well be true, not just Saints, all other sort of stories too. However my take on this is, once someone went to heaven, his thinking process will be much different than us, all the stuff we care about (money/power/loved ones etc) means little to them since they now has the love and knowledge of God, sort of like what we think about what we care above in kindergarten, that one legged bear is no longer of our concern now.

The Angels/saints will only be here for something that is important to God, not here just for our personal gains. I would think most of the supernatural things that cares about those might be from the princes of this world.