intelligent discussion

[Majul]

Hello,

I'm looking to have an intelligent discussion with someone. I consider myself an Agnostic and not an Atheist. I want to believe in God, but i have a lot of unanswered questions. I was raised a Roman Catholic, but my faith was mostly blind belief as a child

i'm not here just to have meaningless arguments. However, i am confused by the very idea of Gods existence. (not just the Christian God).

I guess my first question would be the simplest and i tried to come up with my own answer, but i get stuck;

Why does God allow bad things to happen?

...because God gave us free will, he wants to test us and give us a choice between good and evil.

So, if God is omnipotent and knows that giving us free will would result in suffering, why would he do that? wouldn't we be better of without free will?

God wants to test us individually, what would be the point of faith?

...but if God killed someones family (for instance, "Job"), just to reinforce his faith, would that be a cruel act by God upon the innocent (his family, or did they die for God)? If i killed a baby in order to reinforce another persons faith in God, would that not be considered murder? So why is it different if God does it?

What about physically deformed children, if it occurs naturally, it would be Gods doing, and why would God deform an innocent child to reinforce somebody's faith? if not for faith than for what reason? If God could stop deformity amongst babies, why doesn't he?

I ask myself to have faith and believe, but than i ask myself what is faith and belief? faith to me means "to believe something 100% without having 100% evidence" (God showing himself to me, i guess), A leap of faith i guess is what its called.

I want to know how people of faith explain these questions to themselves... I mean, if i was to believe in God without questioning God, than what is the point of belief? ...and what would be the point of free will? which takes me back to the start of my questions.

I would really appreciate if i could hear some of your perspectives on these questions. I don't expect any proof or evidence of God, just please tell me how you, in your own words would answer these questions?

Perhaps you could write something similar to what i wrote (questions and answer - starting with the question "why does God allow bad things to happen?" or something else), ending with an answer which satisfied your doubt.

Thanks

Matt

 

[Johnnz]

Suffering is a big issue. But it does exist. One may cavil against a loving God allowing suffering, but reject any concept of God and what is the explanation for suffering then?

Within the biblical story the why of evil is never clearly addressed,only that it exists. But God is not remote from our situation, and in fact, in Jesus, entered into our suffering Himself. Our Christian belief is one of hope, of the God who has taken steps to one day bring all suffering to an end, and in the resurrection of Jesus has signaled that final outcome.

John
NZ

 

[solarwave]

Why does God allow bad things to happen?

This is the best arguement against Christianity I think because its can be hard to answer considering that there are so many emtions involved in it, but I will do my best.

So, if God is omnipotent and knows that giving us free will would result in suffering, why would he do that? wouldn't we be better of without free will?

Well I suppose you have to consider whether you think meaningless robots with no suffering is better than individuals with suffering or not. Personally I would rather have suffering and have a real life than basically not exist and pointlessly perfect world, and I think that it is fair enough to think God might think the same thing.

...but if God killed someones family (for instance, "Job"), just to reinforce his faith, would that be a cruel act by God upon the innocent (his family, or did they die for God)? If i killed a baby in order to reinforce another persons faith in God, would that not be considered murder? So why is it different if God does it?

You killing someone is different from God doing so. God is the creator and we are the creature. We have no right to take so freely, but we quite literally owned by God. Yeh things like this are confusing, this is largely taken on faith I suppose.

What about physically deformed children, if it occurs naturally, it would be Gods doing, and why would God deform an innocent child to reinforce somebody's faith? if not for faith than for what reason? If God could stop deformity amongst babies, why doesn't he?

I think this is probably more the cause of a world that has bad things happen in it, rather than Gods testing. It could be. But this world works by physical laws, and things go wrong and wont just interfere with every action which He disagrees with.

I ask myself to have faith and believe, but than i ask myself what is faith and belief? faith to me means "to believe something 100% without having 100% evidence" (God showing himself to me, i guess), A leap of faith i guess is what its called.

Faith is not 100% belief. I tend to think of faith and trust bein very much the same. Faith is trust in God when you have reasonable reason to do so. You can't prove or disprove God 100% but you can take the facts you have a follow the way the evidence points and put faith in the way it points.

Ok I will now give a few answers to the problem of evil, tell me what you think.

One: God is loving, omniscience and omnipotent and this is where the normal problem is found. I say that the love does not mean taking away all suffering, or at least it doesn't mean it has to be done straight away. I say love means doing the best for someone and if freedom is better than lack of suffering, then even though it pains God to see us in pain, maybe it is necessary for a great good.

Two: Suffering builds character and this cannot be done in a perfect world. You can never know the true value of love, kindness, forgiveness if you have never been apart from them, it would just be the normal. The process of becoming a good person is just as important as when you get there.

Three: Suffering gives a predicable enviroment. Think about if God interfered before human or nature could do any harm, how much of a messed up world would it create. There would be chaos, science couldn't work because no one could ever be sure if God would interfere. There would be no consequence to many actions or no free will.

Four: Maybe this is the only way a universe and earth could exist logically with minimal suffering. Things like earthquakes, volcanoes etc are needed for a planet that has life on it. People say that there is so much suffering, but what if it could have been much worse, but God made a world with the minimal suffering possible? If there was less suffering then there is now people would still complain.

Five: (According to Augustine) God created a perfect world; evil is just a lack of goodness; sin entered the world with Adam and Eve; this brought disharmony to human nature and nature; this is our fault as humans and is down to free will; God is justified in not interfering because it is a consequence of our actions; God gave a solution through Jesus Christ.

Six: You could just blame Satan for some suffering.

Seven: I came across a short poem (which I can post if you want) which made me think, yeh we suffer, but God watch His Son go to the cross for us, and He has felt the pain seeing the thing He loved most put to death and Jesus Himself experienced the pains of human life, including crucifiction which not many people can compare their suffering to. God knows what it is like.

I hope that helps, sorry for the length, tell me what you think.

 

[GeorgeWW]

Great questions!

First, I had to decide that the world revolves God. He created me. I did not create Him.

Second, I had to decide He could do whatever He wants to do, whenever He wants to do it, and He doesn't have to explain any of it to me.

Third, everything is created to bring glory to God.

Fourth, God is good. Period. Everything He does is good. Everything.

Having said, that here is my pass at your questions.

"Why does God allow bad things to happen?"

Not only does He allow bad things to happen. He sometimes causes them to happen. But they are only bad from our perspective. From God's perspective, everything He does is good.
Lamentations 3:38 "Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come?"
In God's economy, calamities are a good thing.

"So, if God is omnipotent and knows that giving us free will would result in suffering, why would he do that? wouldn't we be better of without free will?"

Suffering is a good thing. It makes me more Christlike. (James 1:2-4; Romans 5:3-5)

We might be better off without free will. But God created us to serve and worship Him. Without freewill, our service and worship is meaningless. With freewill, our service and worship is pleasing to God.

"...but if God killed someones family (for instance, "Job"), just to reinforce his faith, would that be a cruel act by God upon the innocent (his family, or did they die for God)? If i killed a baby in order to reinforce another persons faith in God, would that not be considered murder? So why is it different if God does it?"

It only works if God does it. Because He is the only one who knows how all things fit together into His perfect plan.

It might not make sense to me or you or anyone else, but to God it makes perfect sense.

"What about physically deformed children, if it occurs naturally, it would be Gods doing, and why would God deform an innocent child to reinforce somebody's faith? if not for faith than for what reason? If God could stop deformity amongst babies, why doesn't he?"

1 Peter 3:9 says "He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."
From point 3 above, I believe God created everything for His glory. He desires that everyone repent, turn to Him, and give Him the glory He deserves. He knows human nature dictates that He has to do something to get my attention.
Psalm 78:34 says that "whenever God slew them, they would seek him; they eagerly turned to him again."
God will do whatever it takes to get out attention.

He is jealous (Ex 34:14). He will do whatever it takes to get our attention and turn us back to Himself.

Praying for you.

 

[Simple_Mind]

Why does God allow bad things to happen ?

1) To provide us learning/training/character-development opportunities.

2) To enable a real environment where real choices and real character development is possible.

God is creating a race of beings whose character is "conformed to the image of Christ" -- a race of beings who will be a pleasure to be with for eternity.

Cordially,
John

 

[Johnnz]

That's probably true but also very limited. Millions of very young children die each year in impoverished countries. That has little to do with character training.

John
NZ

 

[deathduck]

One of the best answers to your questions will only re-affirm your agnosticism.

Nature is cruel, but through the cruelty something beautiful emerges, evolution. Yes disease and deformity are cruel, but are they not a strong driving force behind human ingenuity?

As for god killing Job's family, you can safely assume that never happened. The old testament has a lot of large scale acts of god that are disregarded as fairy tale by people who study history seriously. Ask a public university history professor if any of the things in the old testament really happened, he will say no.

Really, many of the old testament acts of god so cruel that the only way they can be justified is 'god knows better than us'. Well, killing innocent children will not be forgiven by me (god is directly and indirectly responsible for this in the old testament), and it is laughable that I need to ask a child killer and mass murderer for forgiveness on minor sins.

The old testament is something many Christians admit cannot be taken seriously, while many others say it is god's word. I think it's good evidence that Christians got it wrong, and it broke me free of Christianity years ago.

Think rationally about some of the hardest questions you have and you will realize there is no good answer, then you can reform your idea of god that does provide an answer.

Example: 'Why does god send people to hell for infinite intense torture when in life they only committed small, finite sins (nothing serious).

Christian answer: 'God knows best and sin cannot coexist with him in his kingdom'

Real answer: 'A true god must be more understanding and forgiving (no need to ask), and he would not send anyone into a state of infinite torture because that is to cruel of a fate for any sin. Therefor, god does not send people to hell'

That example is one of the easiest ways to see Christians are totally off base. Even though this seems obvious to people like me, other people think differently. It seems for most Christians that faith is stronger than logic or anything else and they will always find a way to justify dogma.

 

[solarwave]

Nature is cruel, but through the cruelty something beautiful emerges, evolution. Yes disease and deformity are cruel, but are they not a strong driving force behind human ingenuity?

Why is evolution a problem for the bible?

As for god killing Job's family, you can safely assume that never happened. The old testament has a lot of large scale acts of god that are disregarded as fairy tale by people who study history seriously. Ask a public university history professor if any of the things in the old testament really happened, he will say no.

Maybe it did, maybe it didn't happen and if you can back up that it didn't then fair enough. If it isn't literally what happened, the point of the story still stands. He wouldn't say everything in the Old Testament didn't happen, thats just stupid, fair enough if Adam and Eve and Noah are symbolical, but things like the reign of David in Israel I thought was a real event.

Example: 'Why does god send people to hell for infinite intense torture when in life they only committed small, finite sins (nothing serious).

No sin can be in heaven and God is just (which everyone always forgets) so sins must be paid for, so sinful humans who havn't been forgiven can go to heaven. So they go somewhere else which is seperate from God, this is called hell. So people spend their lives telling God to go away and they get what they ask for after death. I dunno if hell is any more than seperation from God, but that alone would be bad enough once one realised what one has done.

Yh tht was short and not well thought out so....

 

[aiki]

Why does God allow bad things to happen?

God answered this question when Job asked it. He answered this way:

Job 38:2-11 (NKJV)
2 "Who is this who darkens counsel By words without knowledge?
3 Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me.
4 "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 "Or who shut in the sea with doors, When it burst forth and issued from the womb;
9 When I made the clouds its garment, And thick darkness its swaddling band;
10 When I fixed My limit for it, And set bars and doors;
11 When I said, 'This far you may come, but no farther, And here your proud waves must stop!'

And so on.


The whole 38th chapter and the following three chapters of Job go on like this with God asking questions of Job. What's God's point?

1. Job (and by extension all of us), has a finite mind and limited knowledge of the Universe and the One who made it. From such an acutely restricted vantage point it is not possible to see and understand all that happens in the world and why God has allowed it to happen. It isn't just a matter of it not being Job's (or our) business, but the scope of what must be comprehended in order to follow God's purposes in all that happens is so vast, so complex, that Job (and we) cannot even begin to process it all.

2. On what basis does the created thing demand an explanation from its Creator? Job has no equal footing from which to question his Maker. God's words to Job are intended, in part, to accentuate this fact.

When God gets done with him, Job confesses,

Job 42:1-6 (NKJV)
1 Then Job answered the Lord and said:
2 "I know that You can do everything, And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.
3 You asked, 'Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?' Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
4 Listen, please, and let me speak; You said, 'I will question you, and you shall answer Me.'
5 "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You.
6 Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes."

...because God gave us free will, he wants to test us and give us a choice between good and evil.

Test us? Perhaps, but only in part. Free will is a necessary ingredient in genuine love. We could not love God at all without free will.

So, if God is omnipotent and knows that giving us free will would result in suffering, why would he do that? wouldn't we be better of without free will?

Apparently not. Personally, I'd rather not be a puppet even if free will can be dangerous.

God wants to test us individually, what would be the point of faith?

I'm not sure what you mean.

...but if God killed someones family (for instance, "Job"), just to reinforce his faith, would that be a cruel act by God upon the innocent (his family, or did they die for God)?

This isn't why God killed Job's family. It wasn't simply to test Job's faith, but to demonstrate Job's righteousness and faith in God to Satan and to instruct the millions who have read his story over the centuries in the pages of the Bible.

If God is the One who gives life, why can He not be the One to take it? No one directs Him upon what basis to give life and no one directs Him upon what basis to take it.

People tend to be very strongly egocentric. We place ourselves at the top of our list of priorities and think that God must as well. In the grand scheme of things, however, our continued existence on the earth is not particularly vital. When it suits Him, God will remove any one of us without consultation or warning. This is the prerogative of the Divine.

If i killed a baby in order to reinforce another persons faith in God, would that not be considered murder? So why is it different if God does it?

Are you saying you and God are equals?

What about physically deformed children, if it occurs naturally, it would be Gods doing, and why would God deform an innocent child to reinforce somebody's faith? if not for faith than for what reason? If God could stop deformity amongst babies, why doesn't he?

Deformity is the result of sin. Sin corrupts and, since its advent into the world through Adam and Eve, it has continued to do so. This is a part of why God hates Sin so much. Sin always takes us farther than we wanted to go and costs us more than we ever expected to pay. Its corruption extends even to the innocent, unborn child forming in the womb.

I ask myself to have faith and believe, but than i ask myself what is faith and belief? faith to me means "to believe something 100% without having 100% evidence" (God showing himself to me, i guess), A leap of faith i guess is what its called.

Not having 100% proof of God isn't the same as having no evidence of Him at all. I can have faith in Him if there is something that can be known of Him that warrants my faith. I may take a leap of faith, but it is only with this knowledge in hand.

I want to know how people of faith explain these questions to themselves... I mean, if i was to believe in God without questioning God, than what is the point of belief? ...and what would be the point of free will? which takes me back to the start of my questions.

It is fine to question God so long as you understand that He is never obligated to give you the answer you want - or any answer at all. He has given you His Word and in it all the most important things you need to know about Him and your relationship to Him.

Peace.

 

[salida]

First I will answer your question about Job. God won't allow anything more than we as a believer can bear - this is OT believers and NT believers. God restored Jobs loss and gave Job even more than he had before. Yes, God tested Job for Gods glory. You have to ask yourself why did God test Job? Not because God is mean. What does the Bible say?

God hates babys who are murdered like forced abortion. Children were killed in the Old Testament because God was protecting Israel from the pagans around them. The children would have grown up to be like their parents (pagans). These pagans had infant sacrifices to their false god- this was their form of baby killing. I won't mention what other things they did because its too gross. In the Old Testament (OT) - God used Israel as a nation for his glory.

Mankind has a fallen nature because of the Adam and Eve situation. We need a Savior because all have sinned. Can you keep the 10 Commandments all the time 100% of the time? www.livingwaters.com/good/ Only Jesus could. Jesus is the only reconcilation between God and man.

There is evidence. The Bible is the most true book in the world. Read the Evidence that Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell(it would stand up in a court of law without a reasonable doubt). And the Case for Christ by Lee Strobel a former athiest. Plus, there is hundreds of detailed prophesies that has come true and more to be fulfilled today.

Biblical Evidence (Scratching the Surface Only)

Internal Evidences
Prophesies that are confirmed within Bible

- Life of Christ
The Tribe of Judah, Gen 49:10 - Luke 3:23-28
(Genesis was written 4004 BC to 1689 BC)
(Luke's time period is 60-70 AD)

Royal Line of David, Jer 23:5 -Matt 1:1
(Jeremiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60-70 AD)

Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14/Matt 1:18-23
(Isaiah 760 to 698 BC)/(60-70 AD)

**I can list at least 20 more of these.
-Rise of Empires
In the book of Daniel, Chapter 2 - four kingdoms are described in the interpretation of the dream of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek - Daniel 8:21, 10:20) and a fourth great kingdom to follow - part iron and clay - which is the Roman Empire - during this empire Christ came and the church was established - Daniel 2:44.

-Historical Accuracy
The Bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events hundreds of years ago, yet has not been proven incorrect on any.
(Bible compared to other ancient documents):
New Testament - starts at 25 years - between original and first surviving copies
Homer - starts at 500 years
Demosthenes - at 1400 years
Plato - at 1200 years
Caesar - at 1000 years

Number of Manuscript Copies
New Testament - 5,686
Homer - 643
Demosthenes - 200
Plato - 7
Caesar - 10

Consistency
Written by at least 40 men over a period of time exceeding 1400 years, and has no internal inconsistencies.

Claim of Inspiration
It claims to be spoken by God, 2 Tim 3:16-17). No other religious book makes such claims.

External Evidences
(Prophesies Outside the Bible)
These cities were prophesied to be destroyed and never be built again.
Nineveh - Nahum 1:10, 3:7,15, Zephaniah 2:13-14
Babylon - Isaiah 13:1-22)
Tyre (Ezekiel 26:1-28)

Bible before Science
He hangs the earth on nothing - Job 26:7
(Job was written at least 1000 years ago - some scholars think it could be even 3000 years ago)
Note: Man only knew this for 350 years
Earth is a sphere, Isaiah 40:22
Air has weight, Job 28:25
Gravity - Job 26:7, Job 38:31-33
Winds blow in cyclones, Eccl 1:6

Documents that Prove Bible is True
Gilgamesh Epic, The Sumerian King List, Mari Tablets, Babylonian Chronicles

Archealogoical Finds
Excavations of Ur, Location of Zoar, Ziggurats and the foundation of Tower of Babel

 

[Sinful2B]

Hi and welcome

Salida wrote:

Genesis was written 4004 BC to 1689 BC)

Venus figurines were carved as far back as 27,000 B.C., but the majority of them have been dated between 23,000 B.C. and 21,000 B.C. The latest figurines found date to about 12,000 B.C. The most famous of the Venuses is the Venus of Willendorf, carved around 25,000 B.C. in Germany, and discovered in 1908. Some 350 of these same goddess figurines were found in a stone age site in Israel dating back to the Yarmukian culture, which existed around 5500 to 5000 B.C., near the mountain city of Har Meggido (identified as the site of the final battle between good and evil in the Book of Revelation, giving root to the name of the English word Ar-mageddon).
Excavations of the Neolithic settlement in Chatal Hyuk, Turkey, dated to around the 6700’s B.C., have turned up a far greater number of earth mother figurines over that of the male god, one of them being a large goddess sitting on a throne flanked by two lions. Hundreds of bear goddess figurines have been discovered around Celtic Gaul and Britain and dated to 5,000 B.C.
[FONT=&quot]There is resultantly, a 23,000 year history of reverence to deities [/FONT]prior to your dating of Genesis, and the first time that your God is apparently supposed to have said anything to anybody.

Given that the only religions prior to Christianity were pagan, in which all Gods are silent, then the very concept of God/Gods is of a human source. After all, even in Genesis, nowhere is it written what a God is. It is already assumed by the writers that the readers will already know, and knowing that before an authentic Godly source, means Pagan, and therefore a human construct.

ORIGIN OF DEITIES
The oldest feminine figurine that has been found comes from Berekhat Ram, Israel, and was discovered between volcanic layers that has been dated from between 233,000 and 800,000 years ago. That means the figurine was carved before homo sapiens, ie.US, or even Neanderthals existed! It was most likely carved by homo erectus. The figurine is a rock formation made of volcanic tuff that has a natural resemblance to a woman, but microscopic analysis has shown that someone has carved grooves for a neck and arms.

Another figurine found in the town of Tan-Tan, in Morocco, Africa, was discovered in 1999, this one made of quartzite and was at one time was painted with red ochre. Neanderthals, as well as modern humans from ancient Chatal Hyuk are known to have colored skulls with red ochre for cultic purposes as well. Like the Berekhat figurine, a human-like image had already been formed on the stone at random before being found and enhanced by grooves to emphasize it’s naturally anthropomorphic appearance. Although the gender of the figurine is uncertain, a rounded-looking bosom does make it more likely to be female. This one has been dated from between 300,000 to 500,000 B.C., so it too was probably carved and colored by homo erectus.
Were Gods actually NOT invented by our species, Homo sapiens, at all, but indeed their Homo ancestors, or even dare it be suggested, by anthropods NOT even of the Homo species?
Yes, to these ancient creatures, who communicated with grunts and body language only, the concept of deities, ie. something to venerate beyond the known, had already occurred to them.



Yes, whatever your Bible might say, it is trying to elaborate a story that had been around for hundreds of thousands of years.

In that, the eloquent eulogy of faith, is but a diminishing light at the end of a very long tunnel of paganism.

 

[solarwave]

Not that a sense of God could be an innate to human like creatures possibly? As in God given. (I dont want to start annother arguement I'm just putting that out there).

 

[Sinful2B]

Hi Solarwave

Not that a sense of God could be an innate to human like creatures

Interesting thought, as conjecture always is. However, if one wishes to consider hereditary genes, then I imagine it to be reasonably conclusive that education is not one of them, innate or otherwise.
We are born naked intellectually, and it is only through our environmental experiences that education, and therefore knowledge, arrives.
Certain species of chimpanzee are 99.8% human, yet they do not worship. In fact, we are the only mammal that does, and yet, in isolation, we do not.
In fact, in all examples of apparent isolatory worship, hereditary behaviour is always discovered.
Humans have a strong ability to mimic, in all of it's facets, from infancy, and yet, without the ability to do so from a human source, inevitably it is nature's example that becomes the origin of all behaviour, within which absolutely none can be apportioned to any form of worship.
Worship is learned behaviour.

 

[Soul_Searcher]

Hi Matt,

I think the first thing to ask yourself is, "What is God?" How do you know what to believe in if you cannot define God? If God is a 'being' similar to us, one that involves itself with our daily activities, has omnipotence, etc., then you can rightly ask why God allows bad things to happen. If God is spirit, or something else, maybe this entity isn't involved in the way most people believe.

The main problem with the question, though, is that God cannot be defined, IMHO, but only felt.

 

[Lion-Of-Zion]

Why does God allow suffering?
What good is the view from the top of the mountain, if you didnt climb up?

Would we be better off without free will?
NO WAY. We would all be robots. Your thoughts would not be your own. Its like the cheesy Sci Fi movies, or invasion of the body snatchers... or something like that. I would imagin a life without any kind of sadness would just feel numb.

Im not going to try and explain the reasons why God does things (like disfigured babys) or even if it is God who does them. It is way beyond mine or anyone elses understanding or comprehension.

 

[Sinful2B]

Hi and welcome

Would we be better off without free will?
NO WAY. We would all be robots. Your thoughts would not be your own.

Interesting this LOZ.
After all, just how much free will do we have?
Our decisions are based upon our educational and environmental experiences, which no doubt leaves me in a different position to you.
I cannot choose to do something of which I know nothing, resultantly, my free will is compromised and unlikely to be as identical as yourself.

Our decisions are also based upon what becomes foremost in our minds, which is why advertising works.

Our decisions are based upon what our culture determines for us, and how our governments determine our options for us.

Viewing societies from without, it is easy to see how robotic humanity has become. Habitual behaviour governed by the access we have chosen for us, and our reluctance to do anything other than to mimic our peers, leaves us in a very guided existence.

Consider all the things - literally ALL - that you do in your life.
Just how many of these things are NOT done by the people you know?

I imagine for most people in this world, being robotic is very comforting for them. This of course, is one of many reasons why religion exists, after all, as I often question, just how many pieces of music that you don't like, do you thoroughly enjoy listening to?

No, I think humanity chooses not to excercise it's independance, and however strong we perceive ourselves to be, our evolution determines our non-seperation from nature. After all, we are only doing with technology what we did without it.

I would imagin a life without any kind of sadness would just feel numb.

I agree. For it is the plethora of all experiences that determines our ability to value the need for the undervalued.

As I so eloquently put it:

If you cannot see the joy in receiving the mosquito sting, you will never understand the joy in not.

 

[Lion-Of-Zion]

Hi and welcome



Interesting this LOZ.
After all, just how much free will do we have?
Our decisions are based upon our educational and environmental experiences, which no doubt leaves me in a different position to you.
I cannot choose to do something of which I know nothing, resultantly, my free will is compromised and unlikely to be as identical as yourself.

Our decisions are also based upon what becomes foremost in our minds, which is why advertising works.

Our decisions are based upon what our culture determines for us, and how our governments determine our options for us.

Viewing societies from without, it is easy to see how robotic humanity has become. Habitual behaviour governed by the access we have chosen for us, and our reluctance to do anything other than to mimic our peers, leaves us in a very guided existence.

Consider all the things - literally ALL - that you do in your life.
Just how many of these things are NOT done by the people you know?

I imagine for most people in this world, being robotic is very comforting for them. This of course, is one of many reasons why religion exists, after all, as I often question, just how many pieces of music that you don't like, do you thoroughly enjoy listening to?

No, I think humanity chooses not to excercise it's independance, and however strong we perceive ourselves to be, our evolution determines our non-seperation from nature. After all, we are only doing with technology what we did without it.



I agree. For it is the plethora of all experiences that determines our ability to value the need for the undervalued.

As I so eloquently put it:

If you cannot see the joy in receiving the mosquito sting, you will never understand the joy in not.

But without free will you wouldnt have the chance or ability to choose for yourself, or learn from you experience or enviorment as you said. Life would be plotted out for you and your choices wouldnt matter because you had nothing to do with them.

 

[jellybean99]

The situation that you speak is often called "The Problem of Evil." It poses the question, "How can there be evil in a world created by a omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent God?" Many great (and not-so-great) thinkers have wrestled with this question. Proposed solutions to this apparent paradox are called "Theodicies." Check it out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil

FYI: The attributions of omnipotence, omniscience and benevolence come from Classic Greek philosophy, and are believed to describe the ultimate deity in terms of power, knowledge and virtue.

"Good" comes from the Hebrew TOVE (rhymes with grove) and refers to the quality and desirability of someone or some deed. This can refer to morals, character, strength, purity, etc. "Bad," RRA (rhymes with bra) is used to describe entities and deeds of inferior quality and desirability and are seen as wicked and/or disagreeable in YHWH's eyes.

God is absolutely good--perfect & complete in every way, while everyone and everything else is RRA in comparison. To sin, kah-TAH, literally means to miss the mark, as in to fall short of goodness. In its extreme, RRA means wicked, evil and/or catastrophic.

When the serpent entered the Garden of Eden, he showed Eve the fruit of the tree which contained the knowledge of Good and Evil. Eve only knew of goodness before this incident. The serpent tricked Eve into eating the fruit, which was good, by doing something evil (wicked & disagreeable to God).

Once she and Adam ate of this fruit, wickedness entered creation making it RAA (corrupt, of inferior quality) and doomed the universe to eventually perish (like rotting fruit). Adam and Eve's evil deed separated the human race and our universe from God's goodness and also left humanity with an imperfect (inferior) sense of morals (right and wrong, good and evil, etc.).

It is only when one appears before God that one truly knows what is "good." While God the Father is not immediately available to this wicked world (He cannot look upon evil nor can we look directly at Him w/o perishing in our wickedness), His son Jesus can be made available to us if we seek Him out and He is willing. Prayer, Scripture reading and approaching Christ's witnesses on Earth are ways of seeking Christ, the anointed one.

To behold Christ is to realize "goodness." From there confession (agreement with God regarding our missing the mark), repentance (turning from one's wicked path) and atonement (by faithfully accepting the Pardon offered by Christ's perfect sacrifice) becomes possible. Worship (responding to God's glory), praise (responding to God's attributes), thanks (responding to God's blessings), petition (asking for God's treasure) and intercession (asking for God's action) are also available to those who appeal to God's goodness in prayer. Jesus Christ is the "High Priest" who hears our confessions so that we, having our goodness restored by the Holy Spirit, may approach God the Father or God the Son without fear of perishing. Continued fellowship with God requires regular prayer--the Holy Spirit only goes as deep as our confessions to Christ.

A Christian's fiery trials and tribulations are God's way of purifying our character (making it more and good and less evil), though we are all "works in progress" that do not realize perfection in this lifetime.

I trust that this post answers your questions, though reading this may prompt more questions and prayer. I pray that the light of Christ may shine on all who read this so that they may see it and faithfully turn to Christ, our Lord and Savior. Amen.