Intelligent Design's research impact on science

tas8831

Well-Known Member
May 5, 2017
5,611
4,000
55
Northeast
✟101,040.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
If disagreement is trolling then I am trolled more than any here. Many disagree with me on everything simply because I disagree with them on one thing in particular: evolution. It seems that if you don't believe in evolution any other opinions are invalid.
This is, frankly, a fib. It has little if anything to do with mere 'disagreement'. I could, if I really had to, link to a dozen posts of mine in which I explain the errors in your claims, and in support of those explanations, provide links and citations and documentation supportive of my position and/or, more often than not, showing that the links you provide actually undercut your position.

Only to have you pretend you meant something else... Or to change topics, only to make the same already-refuted claims again a few days or weeks later... Or that you are now just 'waiting for the science' - which is truly disingenuous in that when you first make your pontifications, you believe that your position is solid and evidence-backed. I guess this is as close to an admission that you misrepresent your positions that we will ever get.

Creationists are like that....
 
Upvote 0

tas8831

Well-Known Member
May 5, 2017
5,611
4,000
55
Northeast
✟101,040.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Imo the jury found in favor of ID.

The opinion of a biased and uninformed layman with a history of making easily debunked claims and scientifically-illiterate proclamations is so... persuasive.

Your evidence for this conclusion is, as we have seen so many times, your mere say-so, your mere assertion that X is 'designed' because, golly, it just hasta be!

So many creationists are like children, believing in invisible friends and make-believe.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: tyke
Upvote 0

tas8831

Well-Known Member
May 5, 2017
5,611
4,000
55
Northeast
✟101,040.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Belief defines a believer, it's true.
Indeed... From a while back, just as a reminder:

You are not an honest broker, too many trollish habits.

Like:

Repetition of debunked assertions
Responding only to a small or even tangential issue in very long posts and ignoring the rest
Asking others for sources then ignoring the sources when they are given
Refusing to provide actual support for claims
Playing martyr when people expose and exploit your trollish habits
etc.


Like this:

The topic is sounds, not Speech and Language.

Was the entirety of the IQ of 135 creationist super-genius' response to this:


You implied you know about Gray's anatomy, right?

By the way - I ALREADY provided you with a source, but you probably just didn't bother to read it. Creationists are like that - they don't actually want to know how little they know.


So, since you think Google U makes you the expert you pretend to be, I found these in a couple of minutes:

The Neural Basis of Speech and Language (this is the one I linked for you before and you clearly ignored or more likely could not understand)
http://samples.jbpub.com/9781449652678/74738_CH02_FINAL.pdf


Vagus Nerve
http://www.caam.rice.edu/~cox/wrap/vagusnerve.pdf

Why, even Wiki:
General visceral afferent fibers - Wikipedia


From here:


General visceral afferent fibers


The general visceral afferent fibers (GVA) conduct sensory impulses (usually pain or reflex sensations) from the internal organs, glands, and blood vessels to the central nervous system.[1] They are considered to be part of the autonomic nervous system. However, unlike the efferent fibers of the autonomic nervous system, the afferent fibers are not classified as either sympathetic or parasympathetic.[2]

GVA fibers create referred pain by activating general somatic afferent fibers where the two meet in the posterior grey column.

The cranial nerves that contain GVA fibers include the facial nerve (CN VII), the glossopharyngeal nerve (CN IX), and the vagus nerve (CN X).[3]

Generally, they are insensitive to cutting, crushing or burning, excessive tension in smooth muscle and some pathological conditions produce visceral pain (referred pain).[4]

Pathway
Abdomen

In the abdomen, general visceral afferent fibers usually accompany sympathetic efferent fibers. This means that a signal traveling in an afferent fiber will begin at sensory receptors in the afferent fiber's target organ, travel up to the ganglion where the sympathetic efferent fiber synapses, continue back along a splanchnic nerve from the ganglion into the sympathetic trunk, move into a ventral ramus via a white ramus communicans, and finally move into the mixed spinal nerve between the division of the rami and the division of the roots of the spinal nerve. The GVA pathway then diverges from the sympathetic efferent pathway, which follows the ventral root into the spinal column, by following the dorsal root into the dorsal root ganglion, where the cell body of the visceral afferent nerve is located.[5] Finally, the signal continues along the dorsal root from the dorsal root ganglion to a region of gray matter in the dorsal horn of the spinal column where it is transmitted via a synapse to a neuron in the central nervous system.[2]

The only GVA nerves in the abdomen that do not follow the above pathway are those that innervate structures in the distal half of the sigmoid colon and the rectum. These afferent fibers, instead, follow the path of parasympathetic efferent fibers back to the vertebral column, where the afferent fibers enter the S2-S4 sensory (dorsal root) ganglia followed by the spinal cord.[5]
Pelvis

The course of GVA fibers from organs in the pelvis, in general, depends on the organ's position relative to the pelvic pain line. An organ, or part of an organ, in the pelvis is said to be "above the pelvic pain line" if it is in contact with the peritoneum, except in the case of the large intestine, where the pelvic pain line is said to be located in the middle of the sigmoid colon.[6] GVA fibers from structures above the pain line follow the course of the sympathetic efferent fibers, and GVA fibers from structures below the pain line follow the course of the parasympathetic efferents.[6] Pain from the latter fibers is less likely to be consciously experienced.[6]


References

Moore, Keith; Anne Agur (2007). Essential Clinical Anatomy, Third Edition. Lippincott Williams & Wilkins. p. 635. ISBN 0-7817-6274-X.
Moore, Keith; Anne Agur (2007). Essential Clinical Anatomy, Third Edition. Lippincott Williams & Wilkins. pp. 34–35. ISBN 0-7817-6274-X.
Mehta, Samir et al. Step-Up: A High-Yield, Systems-Based Review for the USMLE Step 1. Baltimore, MD: LWW, 2003.
Susan,, Standring,. Gray's anatomy : the anatomical basis of clinical practice. ISBN 9780702052309. OCLC 920806541.
Moore, K.L., & Agur, A.M. (2007). Essential Clinical Anatomy: Third Edition. Baltimore: Lippincott Williams & Wilkins. 180. ISBN 978-0-7817-6274-8
Moore, Keith; Anne Agur (2007). Essential Clinical Anatomy, Third Edition. Lippincott Williams & Wilkins. p. 220. ISBN 0-7817-6274-X.​
Same source, on the special visceral afferent fibers - uh uh! this one actually mentions the larynx! Maybe this will be my Waterloo, and will provide evidence for the creationist's anatomical assertions?

Special visceral afferent fibers (SVA) are the afferent fibers that develop in association with the gastrointestinal tract.[1] They carry the special senses of smell (olfaction) and taste (gustation). The cranial nerves containing SVA fibers are the olfactory nerve (I), the facial nerve (VII), the glossopharyngeal nerve (IX), trigeminal nerve (V) and the vagus nerve (X). The facial nerve receives taste from the anterior two-thirds of the tongue; the glossopharyngeal from the posterior third. SVA fibers in the vagus originate in the larynx and pharynx.[2] The sensory processes, using their primary cell bodies from the inferior ganglion, send projections to the medulla, from which they travel in the tractus solitarius, later terminating at the rostral nucleus solitarius.[3]​
Nope. Just more evidence that the creationist is out of his depth and that his claim of studying anatomy was a farce.

And wiki again on the RLN:

Recurrent laryngeal nerve - Wikipedia


Now please provide an actual source that shows that motor impulses for vocalizations can be produced anywhere other than the Nucleus ambiguus (which in turn receives inputs from the motor speech area).

Surely you know what that is, what with your keen grasp of the relevant anatomy, right?


Of course, you would have had to understand anatomy enough to know what to search for (e.g., vagus nerve, visceral afferents, etc.) which you obviously do not (and remember that according to you, if something is obvious it must be so). This is why your keyword search technique has, every time I have seen you employ it thus far, ended up making you look foolish for linking to articles that actually undermine your position.


Funny - note that I was easily able to provide sources that actually do support my position, yet the creationist cannot seem to be able to do it ever.


PREDICTION - this will be responded to with first a one or two liner blow off, probably bringing up some ancillary subject, and perhaps later with a tangential link to a creationist essay.

Bets?​


Still waiting:

" This is a visceral reaction (the 'mind' of the body) influencing the function of the throat and voice box without the direction of the brain. The signal gets there via the RLN in the case of the giraffe."

Please provide evidence that 1. such a neural pathway exists and 2. that is actually functions in the manner you keep asserting.​

And he never did...
 
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,981
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟960,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
This is, frankly, a fib. It has little if anything to do with mere 'disagreement'. I could, if I really had to, link to a dozen posts of mine in which I explain the errors in your claims, and in support of those explanations, provide links and citations and documentation supportive of my position and/or, more often than not, showing that the links you provide actually undercut your position.

Only to have you pretend you meant something else... Or to change topics, only to make the same already-refuted claims again a few days or weeks later... Or that you are now just 'waiting for the science' - which is truly disingenuous in that when you first make your pontifications, you believe that your position is solid and evidence-backed. I guess this is as close to an admission that you misrepresent your positions that we will ever get.

Creationists are like that....

You misunderstand. I'm opposed by the same people here on every topic: Immigration, economics, health, social issues, etc.
It's like, how can someone who believes in creation know anything about anything.

That said I don't lose any sleep over it.
 
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,981
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟960,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
" This is a visceral reaction (the 'mind' of the body) influencing the function of the throat and voice box without the direction of the brain. The signal gets there via the RLN in the case of the giraffe."

Please provide evidence that 1. such a neural pathway exists and 2. that is actually functions in the manner you keep asserting.​

Are you saying that the RLN is not a neural pathway? And that it doesn't connect to the voice box?
 
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,981
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟960,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
They are not the same thing. And you know it, so what's the point of this reply other than to goad?

The point is to look at the evidence with no preconceived notions of either evolution or creation, then decide.
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,625
81
St Charles, IL
✟347,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
The point is to look at the evidence with no preconceived notions of either evolution or creation, then decide.
When I look I see both.
 
Upvote 0

tas8831

Well-Known Member
May 5, 2017
5,611
4,000
55
Northeast
✟101,040.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
" This is a visceral reaction (the 'mind' of the body) influencing the function of the throat and voice box without the direction of the brain. The signal gets there via the RLN in the case of the giraffe."

Please provide evidence that 1. such a neural pathway exists and 2. that is actually functions in the manner you keep asserting.
Are you saying that the RLN is not a neural pathway? And that it doesn't connect to the voice box?

You can simply not bring yourself to admit you are in over your head, can you?

I EXPLAINED all of this to you several times, and this is the only retort you can concoct?

The RLN is a nerve.

YOU claim that this:

"... influencing the function of the throat and voice box without the direction of the brain."

is a 'neural pathway'.

I asked YOU to show that this is a real thing, and the best your super IQ can come up with is a transparently lame strawman/burden shift?


I EXPLAINED to you how neurons work. I provided diagrams and links for explanations as to the relevant pathways - the REAL ones, not your fantasy ones.
Yet... you still cannot let your ignorance-based proclamations go, can you?

Truly, truly pathetic.

Here are FIVE EXAMPLES wherein I either explained your anatomical ignorance on just this issue to you, showed that the links your provided actually undermined your assertions, or challenged you to provide real evidence for your anatomically-ignorant proclamations (that, invariably, went unanswered):

April 16, 2018

April 17, 2018

April 20, 2018

April 20, 2018

April 20, 2018

and a bonus (there were so many to choose from!!)

April 24, 2019
 
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,981
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟960,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
You can simply not bring yourself to admit you are in over your head, can you?

I EXPLAINED all of this to you several times, and this is the only retort you can concoct?

The RLN is a nerve.

YOU claim that this:

"... influencing the function of the throat and voice box without the direction of the brain."

is a 'neural pathway'.

I asked YOU to show that this is a real thing, and the best your super IQ can come up with is a transparently lame strawman/burden shift?


I EXPLAINED to you how neurons work. I provided diagrams and links for explanations as to the relevant pathways - the REAL ones, not your fantasy ones.
Yet... you still cannot let your ignorance-based proclamations go, can you?

Truly, truly pathetic.

Here are FIVE EXAMPLES wherein I either explained your anatomical ignorance on just this issue to you, showed that the links your provided actually undermined your assertions, or challenged you to provide real evidence for your anatomically-ignorant proclamations (that, invariably, went unanswered):

April 16, 2018

April 17, 2018

April 20, 2018

April 20, 2018

April 20, 2018

and a bonus (there were so many to choose from!!)

April 24, 2019

Are you saying that we know all there is to know about this? We don't know how fish schools actually work.

How Do Fish Schools Work? | JSTOR Daily
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Ophiolite

Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape
Nov 12, 2008
8,619
9,592
✟239,882.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Are you saying that we know all there is to know about this? We don't know how fish schools actually work.

How Do Fish Schools Work? | JSTOR Daily
In what way does your question address the points made by tas8831? I can only imagine you have posted a reply in the wrong thread. Otherwise the only way to describe such an avoiding tactic would be despicable.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: tyke
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,981
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟960,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
In what way does your question address the points made by tas8831? I can only imagine you have posted a reply in the wrong thread. Otherwise the only way to describe such an avoiding tactic would be despicable.

You don't see the connection?

Also tas8831's attacks regarding this topic are getting a bit tiresome. He's attempting to use it as a cudgel to discredit other comments of mine that he disagrees with.
 
Upvote 0

Ophiolite

Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape
Nov 12, 2008
8,619
9,592
✟239,882.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Also tas8831's attacks regarding this topic are getting a bit tiresome. He's attempting to use it as a cudgel to discredit other comments of mine that he disagrees with.
The only acceptable response to tas's post was an honest acknowledgement that you were wrong and an apology for your trite, dismissive behaviour in post after post.
 
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,981
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟960,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
The only acceptable response to tas's post was an honest acknowledgement that you were wrong and an apology for your trite, dismissive behaviour in post after post.

I was just defending myself against his unwarranted attack. If he takes offense at my crazy ideas he should just ignore them. Also does anyone think that that idea (and it is just an idea) is any wackier to some than belief in creation or ID? The unrelenting and repeated attacks by him are puzzling to say the least.

How many have been asked to apologize for insisting that creation and ID are true and evolution false. I don't see any difference here.
 
Upvote 0

Ophiolite

Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape
Nov 12, 2008
8,619
9,592
✟239,882.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
I was just defending myself against his unwarranted attack. If he takes offense at my crazy ideas he should just ignore them. Also does anyone think that that idea (and it is just an idea) is any wackier to some than belief in creation or ID? The unrelenting and repeated attacks by him are puzzling to say the least.

How many have been asked to apologize for insisting that creation and ID are true and evolution false. I don't see any difference here.
Do you not realise that making statements that have clearly been shown to be incorrect is unacceptable. I am not talking about belief systems, or opinions. I doubt you could find an informed creationist who would support the nonsense you post. Playing the fool is not a criminal offence. You have convinced me that needs to change.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,981
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟960,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Do you not realise that making statements that have clearly been shown to be incorrect is unacceptable.

A lot of things I say are 'unacceptable' (politically incorrect) and therefore deemed 'factually' incorrect. Review my posts on a variety of subjects and the responses to them and you'll plainly see this.
 
Upvote 0

pitabread

Well-Known Member
Jan 29, 2017
12,920
13,372
Frozen North
✟336,823.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Thought I'd *bump* this since we're now half way through 2019 and there are still no 2019 articles published in Bio-Complexity.

Meanwhile there were 10 research papers published in just the July volume of the Journal of Evolutionary Biology.

So much for "accelerating the pace" of Intelligent Design debate... :/
 
Upvote 0

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,981
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟960,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Do you not realise that making statements that have clearly been shown to be incorrect is unacceptable. I am not talking about belief systems, or opinions. I doubt you could find an informed creationist who would support the nonsense you post. Playing the fool is not a criminal offence. You have convinced me that needs to change.

Based on the blowback from you guys I believe I've struck a nerve (pun intended). :D
You came late to the beatdown, so you don't know how it started.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Jimmy D

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2014
5,147
5,995
✟268,799.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Based on the blowback from you guys I believe I've struck a nerve (pun intended). :D
You came late to the beatdown, so you don't know how it started.

If your aim in this thread is to annoy people to provoke a reaction then mission accomplished. Unfortunately, in the process you've managed to reinforce the perception of creationists as rude, ignorant and lacking in humility so it's a hollow victory for you to crow about.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

OldWiseGuy

Wake me when it's soup.
Site Supporter
Feb 4, 2006
46,773
10,981
Wisconsin
Visit site
✟960,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
If your aim in this thread is to annoy people to provoke a reaction then mission accomplished. Unfortunately, in the process you've managed to reinforce the perception of creationists as rude, ignorant and lacking in humility so it's a hollow victory for you to crow about.

I'm addressing a reaction that was off the charts by any measure. It's one thing to disagree, it's another to throw an unholy fit and start hurling invectives.

Anyway it's over and done.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Jimmy D
Upvote 0