Intelligent Design

[TheyCallMeDavid]

(Yeah. I know. It's been done to death. I just wanted to focus on one aspect.)

To the ID proponents - How do you tell the difference between things designed and things not designed?

1. Design is evident when a number of seperate, interacting components are ordered in such a way as to accomplish a function beyond the individual components. The greater the specificity of the interacting components required to produce the function, the greater our confidence in the conclusion of a design.



2. Regarding information, we infer design because a number of seperate components (the letters) are ordered to accomplish a purpose (the message) that none of the components could do by itself. Further, the message is highly specific.



3. We assume an intelligent agent when we see the components of a system interact with great specificity to do something.



4. In order to reach a conclusion of design for something that is not an artifical object (for example, an arrangement of vines and sticks in the woods to make a trap) , or to reach a conclusion of design for a system composed of a number of artificial object, there must be an indentifiable function of the system.



5. In considering design, the function of the system we must look at is the one that requires the greatest amount of the systems internal complexity. We can then judge how well the parts fit the function. We know that all of these things were designed because of the ordering of independent components to achieve some end.



6. The conclusion that something is designed, can be made quite independently of knowledge of the Designer.

_________________________

Heres a test to determine Natural Causes from Intelligent Causes ; see if you see the works of natural causes or intelligent causes in each of the 4 scenarios :

1. You walk down the stairs in the morning to have breakfast, and as you approach the kitchen table you notice some letters forming recognizable words which says :' Take out the garbage Honey and I love you' . You immediately assume that the Cat knocked the box of alphabet cereal over which just happened to spell these words out correctly, or, you know that these words represent a message from an Intelligent Source . Choose the answer.




2. You are at the beach on a hot day, and when you look up into the sky you notice a message that reads : 'Drink Coke' . You immediately assume that the cloud formations and wind were such that it spelled out that message for a full one minute, or, you know that this message was produced by an Intelligent Source. Choose the answer.




3. You take a ride out to where you are having a brand new house built and are pleased to see that the walls and roof are up . You exit your car and walk thru the shell of the house and find 3 large pages of paper that are white and blue with specific instructions on how to assemble the walls to the roof members, what size the Plumbing pipes will be , and the added supports so your Home will withstand a category 3 Hurricane so you can continue living there. You immediately assume that these instructional messages came about naturally because you saw pencils and other raw materials sitting nearby , or, you know that there was some kind of Intelligent input from a Person who is interested in assuring your convenience and safety . Choose the answer .



4. For every DNA molecule in our Bodies, there is encoded digital information that is much like a blueprint instructing how a Cell should specifically form (http://www.reasons.org/articles/digital-...ed-in-dna) . These instructions are in the form of an alphabet . Many Micro Biologists describe the internal workings of the DNA molecule as being 'astonishingly busy with as much complexity as the infrastructure of a major U.S. City ' . Famous Atheist Zoologist Prof. Richard Dawkins has declared that the amount of specified information in each DNA molecule would fill 1,000 volumes of encyclopedias if it were spelled out. Given these facts, you immediately assume that these instructional messages just came about by chance from nothing , or, you know that there had to be some kind of intelligent input that deliberately came up with the information then manipulated it to accomplish a very narrow specific intended goal much like we do when we type an Email -- (we come up with the information , then we distribute it with the goal of getting our point across) . Choose the answer.

 

[Split Rock]

Again, why would those animals live in the deep ocean depths? They
aren't found there today even.

The environment was deep, but not benthic. It is the same environment where there are now crabs, lobsters, shrimp, fish, eels, gastropods, etc. Why are they all absent from the Burgess Shale formation, for example?

 

[DerelictJunction]

Again, why would those animals live in the deep ocean depths? They
aren't found there today even.

Yes they are. Whale bodies have been found miles under the ocean surface. What prevented dead whales from sinking to the "Cambrian depths"?

 

[Split Rock]

1. Design is evident when a number of seperate, interacting components are ordered in such a way as to accomplish a function beyond the individual components. The greater the specificity of the interacting components required to produce the function, the greater our confidence in the conclusion of a design.



2. Regarding information, we infer design because a number of seperate components (the letters) are ordered to accomplish a purpose (the message) that none of the components could do by itself. Further, the message is highly specific.



3. We assume an intelligent agent when we see the components of a system interact with great specificity to do something.



4. In order to reach a conclusion of design for something that is not an artifical object (for example, an arrangement of vines and sticks in the woods to make a trap) , or to reach a conclusion of design for a system composed of a number of artificial object, there must be an indentifiable function of the system.



5. In considering design, the function of the system we must look at is the one that requires the greatest amount of the systems internal complexity. We can then judge how well the parts fit the function. We know that all of these things were designed because of the ordering of independent components to achieve some end.



6. The conclusion that something is designed, can be made quite independently of knowledge of the Designer.

Nice plagiarism. You should provide a source after cutting-and-pasting someone else's work.

All this says is, "if it looks designed, it must be designed." You cannot determine if there was intent or a purpose when looking at an elephant.

_________________________

Heres a test to determine Natural Causes from Intelligent Causes ; see if you see the works of natural causes or intelligent causes in each of the 4 scenarios :

1. You walk down the stairs in the morning to have breakfast, and as you approach the kitchen table you notice some letters forming recognizable words which says :' Take out the garbage Honey and I love you' . You immediately assume that the Cat knocked the box of alphabet cereal over which just happened to spell these words out correctly, or, you know that these words represent a message from an Intelligent Source . Choose the answer.

More plagiarism, see above.

Assuming I am married, I would assume my wife left the message, since I know she can spell and write in English. If you saw an alien's message, would you even recognize it as writing?

2. You are at the beach on a hot day, and when you look up into the sky you notice a message that reads : 'Drink Coke' . You immediately assume that the cloud formations and wind were such that it spelled out that message for a full one minute, or, you know that this message was produced by an Intelligent Source. Choose the answer.

If a plane is dragging a sign that says "drink coke" I would assume it was created by a firm hired by the Coca Cola company. I know what planes are and I know what signs are. On the other hand, one can see recognizable shapes in clouds even though no one designed them. This is therefore a much better example for the counter argument than for yours.

3. You take a ride out to where you are having a brand new house built and are pleased to see that the walls and roof are up . You exit your car and walk thru the shell of the house and find 3 large pages of paper that are white and blue with specific instructions on how to assemble the walls to the roof members, what size the Plumbing pipes will be , and the added supports so your Home will withstand a category 3 Hurricane so you can continue living there. You immediately assume that these instructional messages came about naturally because you saw pencils and other raw materials sitting nearby , or, you know that there was some kind of Intelligent input from a Person who is interested in assuring your convenience and safety . Choose the answer .

Another dumb example. I know what writing in English looks like and I know what written instructions look like, I also hired these guys to build the house, so i would expect to find this sort of thing.

4. For every DNA molecule in our Bodies, there is encoded digital information that is much like a blueprint instructing how a Cell should specifically form (http://www.reasons.org/articles/digital-...ed-in-dna) . These instructions are in the form of an alphabet . Many Micro Biologists describe the internal workings of the DNA molecule as being 'astonishingly busy with as much complexity as the infrastructure of a major U.S. City ' . Famous Atheist Zoologist Prof. Richard Dawkins has declared that the amount of specified information in each DNA molecule would fill 1,000 volumes of encyclopedias if it were spelled out. Given these facts, you immediately assume that these instructional messages just came about by chance from nothing , or, you know that there had to be some kind of intelligent input that deliberately came up with the information then manipulated it to accomplish a very narrow specific intended goal much like we do when we type an Email -- (we come up with the information , then we distribute it with the goal of getting our point across) . Choose the answer.

They are not by chance, they are there by selection.

 

[Split Rock]

Again, why would those animals live in the deep ocean depths? They
aren't found there today even.

Benthic animals.. including crustaceans. Benthic zone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[DogmaHunter]

The Cambrian is a buried ocean environment. Why would those animals
be found there?

Any mammal in a any rocklayer dating to a period before mammals existed according to evolutionary timeline would be fine.

PS: what about whales? ;-)

 

[lasthero]

Again, why would those animals live in the deep ocean depths? They
aren't found there today even.

Adding on to what others said, why is it that, when we date things from what you claim are really the oldest depths, they consistently bring back ages from about 500 million years ago? Come to think of it, why is that the case with anything we date? If the various layers really just represent living areas, why is that the higher areas in the column return younger dates, and the lower areas return older dates? I know you don't accept that dating methods are reliable, but if what you say is true then there's really no reason it should be like this. If all the layers were made around the same time, you wouldn't expect dating methods to order them chornologicall. But that is the case.

 

[EternalDragon]

Benthic animals.. including crustaceans. Benthic zone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Benthic zone is only about 200 meters deep at most. It is nearly
up at the surface along continental shelves.

And you do realize you are showing pictures of creatures from today,
after the flood and thousands of years of diversity under new conditions?

 

[DerelictJunction]

The Benthic zone is only about 200 meters deep at most. It is nearly
up at the surface along continental shelves.

And you do realize you are showing pictures of creatures from today,
after the flood and thousands of years of diversity under new conditions?

Why do you claim that all the Cambrian creatures were deep ocean dwellers?

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

Nice plagiarism. You should provide a source after cutting-and-pasting someone else's work.

All this says is, "if it looks designed, it must be designed." You cannot determine if there was intent or a purpose when looking at an elephant.

_________________________


More plagiarism, see above.

Assuming I am married, I would assume my wife left the message, since I know she can spell and write in English. If you saw an alien's message, would you even recognize it as writing?


If a plane is dragging a sign that says "drink coke" I would assume it was created by a firm hired by the Coca Cola company. I know what planes are and I know what signs are. On the other hand, one can see recognizable shapes in clouds even though no one designed them. This is therefore a much better example for the counter argument than for yours.



Another dumb example. I know what writing in English looks like and I know what written instructions look like, I also hired these guys to build the house, so i would expect to find this sort of thing.


They are not by chance, they are there by selection.

In order ---------------

1. Prove plagiarism .

2. Ditto.

3. The SETI program seems to believe it can determine a message from alien intelligence , and it most likely would not be in English. The U.S. Gov. has spent billions on this SETI Program convinced that some sort of a message would be determined as such if it occurred.

4. Glad you have the capability of determining a natural from an intelligent cause .

5 . What if you didn't see the Builder of your house ; would you then blow it off to natural causes ?

6. Selection from WHAT ? A non intelligent source / material source / naturally to cause something to be constructed in a very very narrow precise way ???

 

[Split Rock]

The Benthic zone is only about 200 meters deep at most. It is nearly
up at the surface along continental shelves.

And you do realize you are showing pictures of creatures from today,
after the flood and thousands of years of diversity under new conditions?

Thousands of years of diversification? You think that is a lot of time for evolution to work? Do you know what types of animals are found in the sculptures and paintings found in Egyptian pyramids? The same ones that are living there now. How old are the pyramids?

Its amazing how fast you guys think evolution can work, when you want it to... but only when you want it too. Otherwise, it can't do anything at all.

 

[EternalDragon]

Why do you claim that all the Cambrian creatures were deep ocean dwellers?

I am assuming that from the artists rendition. They don't look like
free roaming creatures near the surface to me.

 

[EternalDragon]

Thousands of years of diversification? You think that is a lot of time for evolution to work? Do you know what types of animals are found in the sculptures and paintings found in Egyptian pyramids? The same ones that are living there now. How old are the pyramids?

Its amazing how fast you guys think evolution can work, when you want it to... but only when you want it too. Otherwise, it can't do anything at all.

Small sea creatures? What are you talking about? Lions and camels now?

Diversity can happen quickly in certain species. Some can become extinct.
Your error is that you think each fossil layer represents millions of years of time.

Egyptian civilization is only about 4000 years old from today.

 

[Split Rock]

1. Prove plagiarism .

Sure: The first part is plagiarized from: Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution By Michael J. Behe, page 194.

2. Ditto.

I think once is enough... I'm not going to bother to try and find the rest.

3. The SETI program seems to believe it can determine a message from alien intelligence , and it most likely would not be in English. The U.S. Gov. has spent billions on this SETI Program convinced that some sort of a message would be determined as such if it occurred.

And what successes does the SETI program have to offer? None. That doesn't mean they will never find an alien broadcast or communication, nor does it mean they would recognize one if they did see it.

4. Glad you have the capability of determining a natural from an intelligent cause .

When I already know when something has an intelligent cause, I recognize it. That doesn't mean I would recognize an intelligent cause if I was unfamiliar with the technology.

5 . What if you didn't see the Builder of your house ; would you then blow it off to natural causes ?

I know what a house looks like. I know where houses come from.

6. Selection from WHAT ? A non intelligent source / material source / naturally to cause something to be constructed in a very very narrow precise way ???

The selection in question is similar to natural selection, except we are not yet dealing with a reproducing organism. Mutations that produce more useful products would be selected for.

 

[lasthero]

Small sea creatures? What are you talking about? Lions and camels now?

Diversity can happen quickly in certain species. Some can become extinct.
Your error is that you think each fossil layer represents millions of years of time.

Egyptian civilization is only about 4000 years old from today.

About 5,000, actually.

Ancient Egypt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And the were precursors to it. Also, Chinese culture stretches back even furher.

 

[lasthero]

I am assuming that from the artists rendition. They don't look like
free roaming creatures near the surface to me.

Scientists don't draw pictures. You should read the literature.

 

[Split Rock]

Small sea creatures? What are you talking about? Lions and camels now?

The Egyptians painted all types of animals, including insects and fish. My point was they haven't changed significantly despite all the diversification you are claiming occurred over the last few thousand years.

Diversity can happen quickly in certain species. Some can become extinct.

Yet, you claim one the one hand evolution can't do anything, and on the other it can create thousands of species of fish from ... what I don't know... in just a few thousand years.

Your error is that you think each fossil layer represents millions of years of time.

Your error is that you ignore reality. If the Cambrian rocks are not millions of years old, then where are all the species we should expect to see in them?

Egyptian civilization is only about 4000 years old from today.

And yet, they show us that local species have changed very little (if at all) during that time period. Just how long did this diversification after the flood take?

 

[EternalDragon]

The Egyptians painted all types of animals, including insects and fish. My point was they haven't changed significantly despite all the diversification you are claiming occurred over the last few thousand years.

Yet, you claim one the one hand evolution can't do anything, and on the other it can create thousands of species of fish from ... what I don't know... in just a few thousand years.

I am not claiming that.

Your error is that you ignore reality. If the Cambrian rocks are not millions of years old, then where are all the species we should expect to see in them?

All the species you should expect to see are there in the ground. I would
not expect to find human or giraffe bones in a fossil layer with deep sea
animals and we don't.

The earth was not the same before the flood. It was very different.

And yet, they show us that local species have changed very little (if at all) during that time period. Just how long did this diversification after the flood take?

How should I know?

 

[DerelictJunction]

I am assuming that from the artists rendition. They don't look like
free roaming creatures near the surface to me.

Crabs don't swim much either but they don't dwell at significant depths.
Just because they are on the ocean floor, doesn't mean they are at some great depth. Coral reefs are on the ocean floor.

Basically, you have no evidence that the Cambrian creatures were deep sea bottom dwellers.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

Sure: The first part is plagiarized from: Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution By Michael J. Behe, page 194.


I think once is enough... I'm not going to bother to try and find the rest.


And what successes does the SETI program have to offer? None. That doesn't mean they will never find an alien broadcast or communication, nor does it mean they would recognize one if they did see it.


When I already know when something has an intelligent cause, I recognize it. That doesn't mean I would recognize an intelligent cause if I was unfamiliar with the technology.


I know what a house looks like. I know where houses come from.


The selection in question is similar to natural selection, except we are not yet dealing with a reproducing organism. Mutations that produce more useful products would be selected for.

a. So, I took some information from Behe's Book and listed it. Most of what People espouse they've read somewhere / they've learned in school from Books / or were told by an Authority ... yet they don't reference the specific source . I posted some facts for the edification of the Reader -- how about you focus on the factual information given ?.

b. The SETI purpose is based on Human Beings being able to recognize and gather information in the form of a message from the Cosmos which would mean FROM an intelligent source ; how much more for DNA digital informational messages as a blueprint ?

c. Are you familiar with digital information technology at least on a fundamental level ?

d. You know that a House required a Builder . Why ? If the Universe could be slapped together using materials naturally, why couldn't a House given enough time, change, pile of materials, and natural occurences ?

e.
DNA has two types of digital information:

1. The genes that encode proteins, which
are the molecular machines of life,
....and....
2. The gene regulatory networks that
specify the behaviour of the genes.
The digital code of DNA : Abstract : Nature


Now here is the question................


What is the SOURCE of digitalized
information?


1. Naturalistic only?


.....OR....


2. From an intelligent causation