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Intelligent Design

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corvus_corax

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dcyates said:
There is at least two mistakes being made within these objections to intelligent design. One is presumptive, the other is semantic. The presumption is that the primary intention of the ID movement is to point us toward the God of the Judeo-Christian tradition. This simply isn't so. This may be the indirect, secondary intention of some, but in the end that is really neither here nor there.
Really?
Are you prepared for your children to learn that Marduk created the universe?
You most likely seek YHVH in ID
So do others
Witness a fellow christian right here on these very boards-
RightWingGirl said:
The designer is all-mighty, eternal, the beginning and the end. With him there was no beginning. He was not created, he is the creator. He has always been.
Point 1
This is a beginning classification of YHVH
RightWingGirl said:
The world we see now is flawed, imperfect. Nature is "Red in tooth and claw". We see hurricanes, deformities, man killing man, animals killing each other. The earth was not created like this. When God created he said it was good. There was no death, no suffering, but when man sinned man brought disease, sin, killing, death, deformities and all kinds of ill into the world. For six thousand years the world has been getting wore and worse. This accounts for some of your "Design flaws" but not all of them. I haven't much time, so I'll cover as many as I can.
Point 2
This one is CLEAR CUT "ID=YHVH as Designer"

Have you ever read the Wedge Strategy?
Google it
Its frightening, and FIRMLY rooted in Creationis.....er, Argument from Desig....er, "Intelligent Design"

When IDers say they arent interested in seeing YHVH promoted as THE Designer, alarm bells start going off in my head

I ask again.... Are you prepared for your children to learn that Marduk created the universe?
 
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dcyates

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random_guy said:
If you want a scientific objection to ID, then it's easy, it's not scientific. There exists a problem with the designer. Who designed the designer? This is one question no IDist will answer, as many believe it's God.

How do you detect design or the where the designer inserted himself. Scientists have showed possible pathways for IC structures to form. If that's the case, how do you know a designer twiddled to make that structure vs. evolution building it. Did they knock out our vitamin C gene? Did they form the flagella? Did they create the first life, or did they just create the first amino acids? None of these questions are answerable or testable.

It is my contention there exists plenty of rational and entirely scientific reasons for believing in the existence of an intelligent designer, without having to appeal to the Bible even once, or any other sacred scriptures. Space does not allow me to fully explicate this of course, but allow me to list six scientific examples that point to a rational belief in theism.

First, the new cosmology: the Big Bang and its accompanying theoretical under-pinning in general relativity. These two theories now refer to a definite beginning to the universe. It was not all that long ago that cosmologists argued that if theists were going to posit an uncreated God who has always been in existence, why not simply say the universe itself has always been around, and so also not in need of a beginning? But if something has a beginning, it only stands to reason it also has a ‘Beginner’. Something cannot create itself. From nothing, nothing comes. Thus the laws of nature cannot be invoked to explain the origin of the universe. The very fact that most scientists now acknowledge that energy, matter, space, and time had a beginning is¾whether they choose to accept it or not¾profoundly anti-materialistic. General relativity points to the need for a cause that transcends time, space, matter, and energy. Only some form of theism affirms the existence of such an entity¾namely, God.

As Noble prize-winner Arno Penzias was quoted as saying about the Big Bang, “The best data we have are exactly what I would have predicted had I nothing to go on but the first five books of Moses, the Psalms and the Bible as a whole” (Malcolm W. Browne, ‘Clues to Universe Origin Expected’, New York Times [March 12, 1978]).

Second, ‘anthropic fine-tuning’: the fundamental laws and parameters of physics possess precise numerical values that very easily could have been otherwise. Yet all of these laws and constants work together in a mathematically mind-boggling manner to make life in the universe possible. For instance, the expansion rate of the universe is fine-tuned to one part in a trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion. If it were changed by one part in either direction¾either a little faster, or a little slower¾we could not have a universe capable of supporting life. And there are many, many other examples of such intricate fine-tuning within other scientific disciplines.

As the late Sir Fred Hoyle, renowned Cambridge astrophysicist¾and staunch atheist¾commented in an obviously unguarded moment, “A commonsense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super-intellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature” (“The Universe: Past and Present Reflections,” Annual Review of Astronomy and Physics 20 [1982]).

Well, perhaps the universe looks fine-tuned because there actually is a fine-tuner. In the opinion of another widely-regarded physicist, Paul Davies¾who has gone out of his way to assure his readers he is not in any way affiliated with any religion¾“The impression of design (in the universe) is overwhelming” (The Cosmic Blueprint [New York: Simon and Schuster, 1988]: 203).

Third, what has come to be called ‘origin of life’ studies. All of the naturalistic attempts to arrive at a viable theory of how life began from non-life have run headfirst into the corresponding problem of how to also account for the origin of the information necessary to bring life into existence, and further, to then also include the mechanism that allows the information to be passed along in order to keep life going. Life at its roots requires information, which is stored in protein molecules and DNA.

One of the most fervent and prolific atheists in the world today, the aforementioned Richard Dawkins of Oxford, has explained that “the machine code of the genes is uncannily computer-like” (River Out of Eden [New York: Basic Books, 1995]: 10). Reflecting on such a statement does not take one long to realize that computers run on software programs that are produced by intelligent engineers. Every experience we have about information¾whether it is a computer code, a book, hieroglyphic inscriptions, or a cave painting¾ points toward intelligence. The same is true concerning the information inside every cell in every living creature. And this is not simply an argument from ignorance. We are not simply inferring design just because the naturalistic evolutionary theories all fail to explain information. We infer design because all those theories fail and we know of another causal entity that is capable of producing information¾namely, intelligence.

Fourth, ‘irreducible complexity’: on a microbiological level there is evidence for design in molecular machines that defy explanation by Darwinian natural selection. These integrative biological organisms¾which microbiologist Michael Behe has dubbed ‘irreducibly complex’¾include signal transduction circuits, sophisticated motors, and all kinds of biological circuitry.

Biological machines need all of their various parts in order to function. So how could you ever build such a system via a Darwinian process of natural selection acting on random variations? Supposedly, natural selection only preserves those things that perform a function¾in other words, that which helps the organism survive to the next generation. That of course is survival of the fittest. The problem with irreducibly complex systems is that they perform their function only when all the parts are present and working together in close coordination with one another. So, natural selection cannot help in the development of such systems; it can merely preserve them only after they’ve been fully developed. Additionally, it is virtually inconceivable that naturalistic evolution could take such huge leaps by mere chance in the creation of a whole system all at once.

Naturally, this begs the question: How did the biochemical machine arise? Both in the preface and on the first page of Richard Dawkins’ book The Blind Watchmaker one finds the prominent zoologist, writer and atheist use such language as: “The complexity of living organisms is matched by the elegant efficiency of their apparent design,” and “Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose” (Harmondsworth, UK: Penguin Books, 1991 [1986]: xiii, 1; emphasis mine). Microbiologist Michael Behe avers that perhaps these biological systems look designed because they really were designed. After all, whenever we come across irreducibly complex systems anywhere else and we know how they arose, invariably a designer was the cause.

Fifth, the Cambrian explosion: Biology’s Big Bang. With these fossils we find between twenty and thirty-five completely novel body plans that, for all intents and purposes, leapt forth suddenly into existence. Here we see a huge jump in complexity without any transitional intermediates.

Furthermore, the Cambrian explosion is also firm evidence against materialistic evolution because, as we already covered above, in all of our experience information is invariably a product of conscious activity. Here we have the geologically abrupt infusion of a massive amount of new biological information necessary to create these body designs; far beyond what any Darwinian mechanism can produce. Indeed Darwin himself declared that nature takes no sudden leaps. Yet the Cambrian explosion demonstrates a gigantic jump forward. Natural evolution simply cannot account for it. Simple commonsense tells us that intelligent design provides a far more plausible explanation.

Sixth, human consciousness itself: our capacity for self-reflection, for representational art, for language, for creativity. Again, naturalistic science just cannot account for this kind of consciousness merely from the interaction of physical matter in the brain. We are more than just matter¾“computer(s) made of meat” in the infamous words of MIT’s Marvin Minsky¾our brains are more than the sum of its parts; we also possess the mind. Here is a quote to ponder:

Why should a bunch of atoms have thinking ability? Why should I, even as I write now, be able to reflect on what I am doing and why should you, even as you read now, be able to ponder my points, agreeing or disagreeing, with pleasure or pain, deciding to refute me or deciding that I am just not worth the effort? No one, certainly not the Darwinians as such, seems to have an answer to this…. The point is that there is no scientific answer.

If you had to guess, who would you imagine would make such an observation? A full-fledged, true-blue, card-carrying Creation Scientist? No. Perhaps a church official, or minister of some kind, spoken in an effort to encourage their congregants in their faith? No. A well-meaning but nevertheless inaccurate Christian evangelist attempting to defend the faith against godless sceptics? None of the above. These were the words of the philosopher, Darwinian-apologist and staunch atheist, Michael Ruse, caught in a moment of weakness of honesty.
 
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Electric Sceptic

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dcyates said:
The 'good reason' it took Dawkins an additional 300 pages to support his opinion that design is only apparent rather than actual is due to the fact that intelligent design provides greater explanatory force than that of purely unaided Darwinian evolution to account for biological life.

No, the 'good reason' is that the ins and outs of evolutionary theory aren't simple. That's why people take years, decades to study it. Apart from anything else, if ID provided greater explanatory force, that doesn't explain why it would take 300 pages to discount it. The fact is that ID doesn't provide any explanatory force; it's the old 'god of the gaps' argument, which has never explained anything, except as shorthand for 'we don't know'.

dcyates said:
This is delving into the realms of philosophy and metaphysics, not science. I impression was that we were supposed to stick to science here.

No, it's not. It would be philosophy or metaphysics to attempt to assign 'purpose' to human life. To note that science cannot, and does not, do so is neither. It is merely noting the purpose and capabilities of science. Science does not adress 'purpose' or 'meaning' - those are the province of philosophy, metaphyscis, theology, etc.

dcyates said:
Well, this is the very issue at hand, isn't it? Someone such as yourself believes we lack the scientific evidence necessary to assert the existence of an intelligent agent that ultimately lies behind the origin and subsequent development of biological entities. Someone such as myself thinks otherwise.

It's not that we "lack the scientific evidence necessary to assert the existence of an intelligent agent" which produced humanity - it's that no such scientific evidence is even possible. ID is entirely a question of god of the gaps. We know of no way in which X could have come into being by natural means (it says) - therefore an intelligent designer created it. There's no evidence for that intelligent designer - merely our lack of knowledge as to what natural processes might have produced X. We can NEVER say "no naturral process could have produced X" - the most we can say is "no natural process OF WHICH WE KNOW could have produced X." Which leads to the god of the gaps that is ID.

dcyates said:
Some school boards have very modestly suggested that students should know that Darwinian evolution is not the only theory about the origin and development of life.

Evolution is NOT the only theory ('theory' in the general English language sense of "speculation; an assumption based on limited information; a conjecture" - for the rest of this post I'll refer to that meaning as 'theory') to account for the origin and development of life. In fact, there are an infinite number of such theories. Here's one I just thought of - an intelligent mutant star-goat sneezed us all out. That's a theory to account for the origin and development of life. Put it up there with all the others, including evolution and creationism.

There is, however, only one theory (theory in the scientific sense of "a set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena." For the rest of this post I'll refer to that meaning as theory (ie, without the '')) to account for the origin and development of life. And that's evolutionary theory.

Get it? Any number of 'theories'; one theory. By all means, teach all the theories you like, but keep the ONLY theory separate from the others, in the science class.

dcyates said:
There are other theories supported by very reputable scientists, including theories of evolution other than the established version

There may well be other 'theories' supported by very reputable scientists; there are no theories. What you call 'theories of evolution other than the established version' are, I suspect, minor variations on what is the established version.

dcyates said:
to which students are presently bullied into giving their assent.

Students arent' 'bullied' into anything. That's just nonsense. No question, on any examination, demands that students accept as true evolutionary theory. They are free to doubt it, disbelieve it, whatever they like. What they can't do (that is, what they can't do and pass that area of science) is lack understanding/knowledge of it. They are 'bullied' (if by 'bullied' you mean 'told they must learn it to pass the class') into learning about evolutionary theory; not into beleiving it.

dcyates said:
On any question, the rational and scientific course is to take into account all pertinent evidence and explanatory proposals.

The rational and SCIENTIFIC course is to take into account all pertinent evidence and SCIENTIFIC proposals.

dcyates said:
We can know that the quasi-religious establishment of a narrow evolutionary theory as dogma

There is nothing religious or quasi-religious about evolutionary theory or science.

dcyates said:
is in deep trouble when its defenders demand that alternative ideas must not be discussed or even mentioned in the classroom.

And if only its defenders had actually ever demanded this. They haven't, of course. No 'defender' has ever stated, demanded or claimed that alternative ideas must not be discussed or even mentioned in the classroom. What they have, of course, maintained is that these 'alternative ideas' must not be mentioned in the SCIENCE classroom, because they are not science. By all means, in a course on religion, or comparative religion, or mythology, mention all the 'alternative ideas' you like. But don't try to drag them into science classes, because they're not science.

dcyates said:
Students, school boards, and thoughful citizens are in fully justified rebellion against this attempted stifling of intellectual inquiry.
There is no "attempted stifling of intellectual inquiry", as shown above. Students, teachers, citizens, all are free to enquire into whatever they like. They are, however, not free to enquire into religious beliefs as part of a science course. What people are 'rebelling' against is the desire of science to keep science to scientific subjects, rather than to include a particular religious subject into science because those people want it to be.
 
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ebia

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is in deep trouble when its defenders demand that alternative ideas must not be discussed or even mentioned in the classroom.
How would you feel if the Mother's Union (say) demanded that at least three cookery recipes should be included in every literature class and the teachers forced to pretend to students that they are poetry? After all, they are pieces of writing every bit as valid as any Shakespear sonnet.

The point of science classes is to teach kids about science. You can't do that effectively if you have to stuff in something that isn't science but pretend that it is.

(Apologies to any MU members out there - it was the best analogy I could come up with off the top of my head.)
 
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Caphi

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First, the new cosmology: the Big Bang and its accompanying theoretical under-pinning in general relativity. These two theories now refer to a definite beginning to the universe. It was not all that long ago that cosmologists argued that if theists were going to posit an uncreated God who has always been in existence, why not simply say the universe itself has always been around, and so also not in need of a beginning? But if something has a beginning, it only stands to reason it also has a ‘Beginner’. Something cannot create itself. From nothing, nothing comes. Thus the laws of nature cannot be invoked to explain the origin of the universe. The very fact that most scientists now acknowledge that energy, matter, space, and time had a beginning is¾whether they choose to accept it or not¾profoundly anti-materialistic. General relativity points to the need for a cause that transcends time, space, matter, and energy. Only some form of theism affirms the existence of such an entity¾namely, God.

Who said that something was required to come from something else? This is your claim, not the cosmologists. Indeed, the existence of "virtual particles" has been proven. Virtual particle are a particle and a antiparticle created together, spontaneously. The Universe happens to be the same way.

As Noble prize-winner Arno Penzias was quoted as saying about the Big Bang, “The best data we have are exactly what I would have predicted had I nothing to go on but the first five books of Moses, the Psalms and the Bible as a whole” (Malcolm W. Browne, ‘Clues to Universe Origin Expected’, New York Times [March 12, 1978]).

Really? The Bible predicts the universal background radiation, the galactic redshift, and all of the other great things predicted by Hubble and/or the Big Bang theory?

Second, ‘anthropic fine-tuning’: the fundamental laws and parameters of physics possess precise numerical values that very easily could have been otherwise. Yet all of these laws and constants work together in a mathematically mind-boggling manner to make life in the universe possible. For instance, the expansion rate of the universe is fine-tuned to one part in a trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion. If it were changed by one part in either direction¾either a little faster, or a little slower¾we could not have a universe capable of supporting life. And there are many, many other examples of such intricate fine-tuning within other scientific disciplines.

Mmhmm. Think about this. Because of this, you are here to think about it. If another Universe with different laws, you wouldn't be there. By definition, life would exist in the one Universe with the right laws to support it - it's not like life would spring up in the first place in a Universe without the right laws. In other words, my good man, it's not that the Universe was placed for us, it is that we were placed in the Universe for us.

As the late Sir Fred Hoyle, renowned Cambridge astrophysicist¾and staunch atheist¾commented in an obviously unguarded moment, “A commonsense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super-intellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature” (“The Universe: Past and Present Reflections,” Annual Review of Astronomy and Physics 20 [1982]).

See above. If you want more, run a quick search on any search engine for "anthropic principle."

Well, perhaps the universe looks fine-tuned because there actually is a fine-tuner. In the opinion of another widely-regarded physicist, Paul Davies¾who has gone out of his way to assure his readers he is not in any way affiliated with any religion¾“The impression of design (in the universe) is overwhelming” (The Cosmic Blueprint [New York: Simon and Schuster, 1988]: 203).

The loss is mine that I have not read the exact work you cite, but I happen to own a copy of another of Dr. Davies' works, The Fifth Miracle, and I have to remind you not to cite out of context. Paul Davies always explores both sides of the issue equally, and it's my understanding that he zealously supports neither side of the issue in its extreme, but concludes with a sort of middle ground. Unfortunately, the same type of understanding is beyond most of this forum, so I will let that pass.

Third, what has come to be called ‘origin of life’ studies. All of the naturalistic attempts to arrive at a viable theory of how life began from non-life have run headfirst into the corresponding problem of how to also account for the origin of the information necessary to bring life into existence, and further, to then also include the mechanism that allows the information to be passed along in order to keep life going. Life at its roots requires information, which is stored in protein molecules and DNA.

One of the most fervent and prolific atheists in the world today, the aforementioned Richard Dawkins of Oxford, has explained that “the machine code of the genes is uncannily computer-like” (River Out of Eden [New York: Basic Books, 1995]: 10). Reflecting on such a statement does not take one long to realize that computers run on software programs that are produced by intelligent engineers. Every experience we have about information¾whether it is a computer code, a book, hieroglyphic inscriptions, or a cave painting¾ points toward intelligence. The same is true concerning the information inside every cell in every living creature. And this is not simply an argument from ignorance. We are not simply inferring design just because the naturalistic evolutionary theories all fail to explain information. We infer design because all those theories fail and we know of another causal entity that is capable of producing information¾namely, intelligence.

Randomness can easily produce information. I could go out into my garden right now, observe a certain pattern of stones, convert that pattern into binary or ternary code, and retrieve a decimal number or set of decimal numbers, perhaps pointing to a geographical coordinates.. This does not mean that the stones were arranged felicitously by an intelligence.

Fourth, ‘irreducible complexity’: on a microbiological level there is evidence for design in molecular machines that defy explanation by Darwinian natural selection. These integrative biological organisms¾which microbiologist Michael Behe has dubbed ‘irreducibly complex’¾include signal transduction circuits, sophisticated motors, and all kinds of biological circuitry.

Biological machines need all of their various parts in order to function. So how could you ever build such a system via a Darwinian process of natural selection acting on random variations? Supposedly, natural selection only preserves those things that perform a function¾in other words, that which helps the organism survive to the next generation. That of course is survival of the fittest. The problem with irreducibly complex systems is that they perform their function only when all the parts are present and working together in close coordination with one another. So, natural selection cannot help in the development of such systems; it can merely preserve them only after they’ve been fully developed. Additionally, it is virtually inconceivable that naturalistic evolution could take such huge leaps by mere chance in the creation of a whole system all at once.

Not quite true. An earthworm has nothing in the way of a heart, at least as humans would call it, except five massive blood vessels in its midsection. A fish has a two-lobed heart. A reptile has three lobes, a bird or mammal four. The trick is not to imagine that a German Shepherd sprang fully functioning out of a pool of scum, but to realize that nature starts with simple and robust and gradually builds its efficiency.

Naturally, this begs the question: How did the biochemical machine arise? Both in the preface and on the first page of Richard Dawkins’ book The Blind Watchmaker one finds the prominent zoologist, writer and atheist use such language as: “The complexity of living organisms is matched by the elegant efficiency of their apparent design,” and “Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose” (Harmondsworth, UK: Penguin Books, 1991 [1986]: xiii, 1; emphasis mine). Microbiologist Michael Behe avers that perhaps these biological systems look designed because they really were designed. After all, whenever we come across irreducibly complex systems anywhere else and we know how they arose, invariably a designer was the cause.

You have to define purpose here. Living organisms have been "designed" by blind forces of competition and predator-prey relationships, to keep themselves alive and procreate. If you want to call that a "purpose," go ahead, but then we wander perilously close to the cliff of semantics.

Fifth, the Cambrian explosion: Biology’s Big Bang. With these fossils we find between twenty and thirty-five completely novel body plans that, for all intents and purposes, leapt forth suddenly into existence. Here we see a huge jump in complexity without any transitional intermediates.

Not at all. It could be explained by anything from a close-by supernova to a fluctuation in the Van Allen Belt, perfectly natural occurrences.

Furthermore, the Cambrian explosion is also firm evidence against materialistic evolution because, as we already covered above, in all of our experience information is invariably a product of conscious activity. Here we have the geologically abrupt infusion of a massive amount of new biological information necessary to create these body designs; far beyond what any Darwinian mechanism can produce. Indeed Darwin himself declared that nature takes no sudden leaps. Yet the Cambrian explosion demonstrates a gigantic jump forward. Natural evolution simply cannot account for it. Simple commonsense tells us that intelligent design provides a far more plausible explanation.

Ockham's Razor, my friend. You have NOT proved that pre-existing intelligence is necessary to generate information. Randomness and large quantities of time are all that are necessary, and both are available.

Sixth, human consciousness itself: our capacity for self-reflection, for representational art, for language, for creativity. Again, naturalistic science just cannot account for this kind of consciousness merely from the interaction of physical matter in the brain. We are more than just matter¾“computer(s) made of meat” in the infamous words of MIT’s Marvin Minsky¾our brains are more than the sum of its parts; we also possess the mind. Here is a quote to ponder:

Why should a bunch of atoms have thinking ability? Why should I, even as I write now, be able to reflect on what I am doing and why should you, even as you read now, be able to ponder my points, agreeing or disagreeing, with pleasure or pain, deciding to refute me or deciding that I am just not worth the effort? No one, certainly not the Darwinians as such, seems to have an answer to this…. The point is that there is no scientific answer.

Consciousness is a function of the brain. It is simply the capacity to react independently to external stimuli. Humans have a forebrain of large size and felicitous shape, developed by millenia of finding that the capacity for abstract though provided a survival advantage. It's absurdly simple.

If you had to guess, who would you imagine would make such an observation? A full-fledged, true-blue, card-carrying Creation Scientist? No. Perhaps a church official, or minister of some kind, spoken in an effort to encourage their congregants in their faith? No. A well-meaning but nevertheless inaccurate Christian evangelist attempting to defend the faith against godless sceptics? None of the above. These were the words of the philosopher, Darwinian-apologist and staunch atheist, Michael Ruse, caught in a moment of weakness of honesty.

The quote does not prove the existence of a God, and neither does your source. Many people, religious and atheistic, have pondered consciousness, and some have given it a more philosophical bite of their mind than others. I believe it's a natural function of logic and emotion, both evolved functions that served real survival benefits. It's your choice to subscribe to this view of consciousness or not.
 
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nvxplorer

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Nice reply Caphi.

I'd like to add that subjective conciousness is still a mystery, but it is not in any way evidence for God or an intelligent designer.

Viewing one's own conciousness can give rise to the idea of soul or spirit, and I imagine this is where the concept originated.
 
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Caphi

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Well, the exact nature of consciousness (as I noted) is debatable, but it is in fact a discussion suited to the realms of philosophy and metaphysics. I should add that I believe consciousness should not be entering into a discussion such as this, since it is such a poorly understood and contented issue the entrance of which can only lead to pointless arguments and circular refuting.
 
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random_guy

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First, the new cosmology: the Big Bang and its accompanying theoretical under-pinning in general relativity. These two theories now refer to a definite beginning to the universe. It was not all that long ago that cosmologists argued that if theists were going to posit an uncreated God who has always been in existence, why not simply say the universe itself has always been around, and so also not in need of a beginning? But if something has a beginning, it only stands to reason it also has a ‘Beginner’. Something cannot create itself. From nothing, nothing comes. Thus the laws of nature cannot be invoked to explain the origin of the universe. The very fact that most scientists now acknowledge that energy, matter, space, and time had a beginning is¾whether they choose to accept it or not¾profoundly anti-materialistic. General relativity points to the need for a cause that transcends time, space, matter, and energy. Only some form of theism affirms the existence of such an entity¾namely, God.

As Noble prize-winner Arno Penzias was quoted as saying about the Big Bang, “The best data we have are exactly what I would have predicted had I nothing to go on but the first five books of Moses, the Psalms and the Bible as a whole” (Malcolm W. Browne, ‘Clues to Universe Origin Expected’, New York Times [March 12, 1978]).

There's a major problem with you comparing the Universe to God. Technically, the universe has always existed because time didn't start until the Big Bang (which created the Universe). Scientists can't say what was before the Big Bang because that just doesn't make any sense. It's like asking what's north of the North Pole. The math breaks down at that point so you can't figure out what was before just like the math breaks down trying to find north of the North Pole.

Now, what valid reason is there for the designer being unexplainable? Is he a divide by zero error?

Second, ‘anthropic fine-tuning’: the fundamental laws and parameters of physics possess precise numerical values that very easily could have been otherwise. Yet all of these laws and constants work together in a mathematically mind-boggling manner to make life in the universe possible. For instance, the expansion rate of the universe is fine-tuned to one part in a trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion. If it were changed by one part in either direction¾either a little faster, or a little slower¾we could not have a universe capable of supporting life. And there are many, many other examples of such intricate fine-tuning within other scientific disciplines.

As the late Sir Fred Hoyle, renowned Cambridge astrophysicist¾and staunch atheist¾commented in an obviously unguarded moment, “A commonsense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super-intellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature” (“The Universe: Past and Present Reflections,” Annual Review of Astronomy and Physics 20 [1982]).

Well, perhaps the universe looks fine-tuned because there actually is a fine-tuner. In the opinion of another widely-regarded physicist, Paul Davies¾who has gone out of his way to assure his readers he is not in any way affiliated with any religion¾“The impression of design (in the universe) is overwhelming” (The Cosmic Blueprint [New York: Simon and Schuster, 1988]: 203).

One point, did you know that an event with 0% chance of ever occurring can occur? If something that's mathematically impossible occurred, did a miracle happen, or was it more likely that you conditioned on too specific of an event?
Fourth, ‘irreducible complexity’: on a microbiological level there is evidence for design in molecular machines that defy explanation by Darwinian natural selection. These integrative biological organisms¾which microbiologist Michael Behe has dubbed ‘irreducibly complex’¾include signal transduction circuits, sophisticated motors, and all kinds of biological circuitry.

Biological machines need all of their various parts in order to function. So how could you ever build such a system via a Darwinian process of natural selection acting on random variations? Supposedly, natural selection only preserves those things that perform a function¾in other words, that which helps the organism survive to the next generation. That of course is survival of the fittest. The problem with irreducibly complex systems is that they perform their function only when all the parts are present and working together in close coordination with one another. So, natural selection cannot help in the development of such systems; it can merely preserve them only after they’ve been fully developed. Additionally, it is virtually inconceivable that naturalistic evolution could take such huge leaps by mere chance in the creation of a whole system all at once.

Naturally, this begs the question: How did the biochemical machine arise? Both in the preface and on the first page of Richard Dawkins’ book The Blind Watchmaker one finds the prominent zoologist, writer and atheist use such language as: “The complexity of living organisms is matched by the elegant efficiency of their apparent design,” and “Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose” (Harmondsworth, UK: Penguin Books, 1991 [1986]: xiii, 1; emphasis mine). Microbiologist Michael Behe avers that perhaps these biological systems look designed because they really were designed. After all, whenever we come across irreducibly complex systems anywhere else and we know how they arose, invariably a designer was the cause.

Again, Behe admitted that if a structure is IC, it doesn't mean that they couldn't evolve. If IC structures are evolvable, how can we tell if a designer had a hand in creating them?

Fifth, the Cambrian explosion: Biology’s Big Bang. With these fossils we find between twenty and thirty-five completely novel body plans that, for all intents and purposes, leapt forth suddenly into existence. Here we see a huge jump in complexity without any transitional intermediates.

Furthermore, the Cambrian explosion is also firm evidence against materialistic evolution because, as we already covered above, in all of our experience information is invariably a product of conscious activity. Here we have the geologically abrupt infusion of a massive amount of new biological information necessary to create these body designs; far beyond what any Darwinian mechanism can produce. Indeed Darwin himself declared that nature takes no sudden leaps. Yet the Cambrian explosion demonstrates a gigantic jump forward. Natural evolution simply cannot account for it. Simple commonsense tells us that intelligent design provides a far more plausible explanation.

Again, the explosion lasted over a period of several million years. There's also explanations on why all the major body structure plans were found. If every niche was open and in the beginning there was no competition, it allows for many different body types to be successful. As niches get filled, the competition toughens, and it becomes harder for new bodies types to take over a filled niche. Nothing magical there.
 
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biochemrex

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Intelligent Design is getting a lot of coverage. It is about time someone thought of this. Evolution is a Theory invented to get rid of God. That is its sole purpose. It is a Theory that has as its basic premise that God does not exist, that all that exists, the Universe, life, humans, came into being by pure chance and that there is no purpose at all in the Universe and it has no moral value.
So Christians have a clear and simple choice. They can give up on God and sign up for Evolution or they can remain Christians and give up on Evolution. There is no possibility of having ones cake and eating it also. One has to choose. They are opposing beliefs. They are not compatible. It is impossible to invent a hybrid out of them Keith
 
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random_guy

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biochemrex said:
Intelligent Design is getting a lot of coverage. It is about time someone thought of this. Evolution is a Theory invented to get rid of God. That is its sole purpose. It is a Theory that has as its basic premise that God does not exist, that all that exists, the Universe, life, humans, came into being by pure chance and that there is no purpose at all in the Universe and it has no moral value.
So Christians have a clear and simple choice. They can give up on God and sign up for Evolution or they can remain Christians and give up on Evolution. There is no possibility of having ones cake and eating it also. One has to choose. They are opposing beliefs. They are not compatible. It is impossible to invent a hybrid out of them Keith

Preach on brother. The fact that the ToE explains the diversity of life on this planet is just a side effect. Everyone knows that God gave us a brain, and it's up to us to not use to learn about the world.

Please point out, where in the ToE that states God doesn't exist? More importantly, can you even define the ToE? I suggest you learn what science is before you argue against it.
 
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ebia

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biochemrex said:
Intelligent Design is getting a lot of coverage. It is about time someone thought of this. Evolution is a Theory invented to get rid of God.
Wrong
That is its sole purpose.
Wrong. That isn't even one of its purposes, let alone its sole purpose.

It is a Theory that has as its basic premise that God does not exist,
Wrong. Like all science, it is based on the assumption that we can explain things without reference to God.

that all that exists, the Universe, life, humans, came into being by pure chance and that there is no purpose at all in the Universe and it has no moral value.
Wrong again.

So Christians have a clear and simple choice. They can give up on God and sign up for Evolution or they can remain Christians and give up on Evolution. There is no possibility of having ones cake and eating it also.
Funny how most Christians do then.

One has to choose. They are opposing beliefs.
Wrong again.

They are not compatible.
This isn't Lewis Carroll. Saying something 3 times doesn't make it true.
 
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AnEmpiricalAgnostic

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biochemrex said:
Intelligent Design is getting a lot of coverage. It is about time someone thought of this. Evolution is a Theory invented to get rid of God. That is its sole purpose. It is a Theory that has as its basic premise that God does not exist, that all that exists, the Universe, life, humans, came into being by pure chance and that there is no purpose at all in the Universe and it has no moral value.
biochemrex said:
So Christians have a clear and simple choice. They can give up on God and sign up for Evolution or they can remain Christians and give up on Evolution. There is no possibility of having ones cake and eating it also. One has to choose. They are opposing beliefs. They are not compatible. It is impossible to invent a hybrid out of them Keith
Welcome to the debate bio. I see you already have as much knack for squeezing as much falsehoods and misinformation in as few words as possible as some of your veteran ilk. Let’s take a look.
biochemrex said:
Intelligent Design is getting a lot of coverage.
Okay, your first sentence is fairly true. In fact, I’m starting to think the whole ID movement is just a clever publicity campaign. Maybe I’m giving ID proponents too much credit though.
biochemrex said:
It is about time someone thought of this.
Yea, “this” is not a new idea. It may be a novel spin but that’s about all that can be said for ID.
biochemrex said:
Evolution is a Theory invented to get rid of God.
Outright false.
biochemrex said:
That is its sole purpose.
Outright false.
biochemrex said:
It is a Theory that has as its basic premise that God does not exist, that all that exists, the Universe, life, humans, came into being by pure chance and that there is no purpose at all in the Universe and it has no moral value.
Ahh, the old shotgun technique. Makes for a good word/falsehood ratio but let’s see if I can address your assertions in order… false, false, false, false, false, and false. (there I think I got them all)
biochemrex said:
So Christians have a clear and simple choice. They can give up on God and sign up for Evolution or they can remain Christians and give up on Evolution. There is no possibility of having ones cake and eating it also. One has to choose. They are opposing beliefs. They are not compatible. It is impossible to invent a hybrid out of them
Oooh. Branching out into false dichotomy… nice, but still false.
biochemrex said:
Well I think this part is true, but I’m not sure.:scratch:


 
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LemmingLord

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AnEmpiricalAgnostic said:
How could anyone take their favorite supernatural entity and attribute life to their “design”? If their supernatural entity did exist I think it would be an insult to call what we see his/her best handiwork.[/color]

[/b]

Given that a Christian would probably start with the axiom that everything God does is perfect, then I guess it is perfection to have these apparent flaws.

DOesn't help for us agnostics of course. :)
 
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Smidlee

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The vestigial organ arguement doesn't hurt ID in fact it helps it. First, The scriptures makes it very clear the earth is under a curse and is far from perfection. This help creationists case it claiming life itself is slowly devolving. Just as everything we know run downhill , coming apart so is living creatures also. Romans chapter 8 Paul states that even the creation is looking/ groaning for the day of redemption. We find in Daniel that also the angels are looking for that day. Yet even under the curse the earth has so many wonderful things to see and learn from.
Second, ID also doesn't claim perfection or perfect design. If Darwinists can use the panda thumb for their unintelligent claim then the ID is a lot stronger by using the whole panda to prove their point. If Darwinist cries about the human's coccyx which ends the vertebrae the ID has a stronger case by pointing at the oppiside end of the vertebrae toward the human brain. So we have two different sides and view point; One is looking at the human butt and shouts I see no intelligence here while the other is looking at the head and finding a lot of intelligence. Maybe God want to design the intelligence just to be on end and no intelligence on the other so people can choose between heads or tails.
Personally I choose heads.:D
 
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DrunkenWrestler

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The vestigial organ arguement doesn't hurt ID in fact it helps it. First, The scriptures makes it very clear the earth is under a curse and is far from perfection. This help creationists case it claiming life itself is slowly devolving. Just as everything we know run downhill , coming apart so is living creatures also. Romans chapter 8 Paul states that even the creation is looking/ groaning for the day of redemption. We find in Daniel that also the angels are looking for that day. Yet even under the curse the earth has so many wonderful things to see and learn from.
ad hoc

Second, ID also doesn't claim perfection or perfect design.
Then what criteria IS used to ascertain ID? It's only extoled if the data confirms the theory, and then rationalized away with ad hocs when the data contradicts the tenant (whoops, I meant to say commitment).
 
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Loudmouth

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Smidlee said:
The vestigial organ arguement doesn't hurt ID in fact it helps it.

It hurts non-theistic ID. For instance, you never find vestigial propellers on jet engines, and for good reason. However, you find their analogue in biological organisms.

Second, ID also doesn't claim perfection or perfect design. If Darwinists can use the panda thumb for their unintelligent claim then the ID is a lot stronger by using the whole panda to prove their point.

How? Even their DNA is consistent with a twin nested hiearchy consistent with the theory of evolution.

If Darwinist cries about the human's coccyx which ends the vertebrae the ID has a stronger case by pointing at the oppiside end of the vertebrae toward the human brain.

Yes, we know IDists like to run away from evidence.

So we have two different sides and view point; One is looking at the human butt and shouts I see no intelligence here while the other is looking at the head and finding a lot of intelligence. Maybe God want to design the intelligence just to be on end and no intelligence on the other so people can choose between heads or tails.
Personally I choose heads.:D

And maybe God used evolution as the design mechanism.
 
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