Intelligent Design/Fine Tuning Question

Question.Everything · Jun 14, 2012

If our universe is so complex that it couldn't have happened without a designer, how is it possible that God does not have a designer?

If God is special in that he's eternal and causeless, why is it not that our universe may be eternal and causeless?

If God is beyond human comprehension, why is it not just that our universe is beyond human comprehension?

If you're going the logical route and believe in intelligent design, I'd like to get your thoughts on those questions.

elopez · Jun 14, 2012

Question.Everything said:
If God is special in that he's eternal and causeless, why is it not that our universe may be eternal and causeless?

God is distinct from the universe, and vice versa. In that, the significant differences between God and the universe is what constitutes the universe as something that is caused and brought into existence. For example, the universe is material; God is immaterial.

Also, it's not just ID that thinks God is eternal and causeless.

Hestha · Jun 14, 2012

Question.Everything said:
If our universe is so complex that it couldn't have happened without a designer, how is it possible that God does not have a designer?

If God is special in that he's eternal and causeless, why is it not that our universe may be eternal and causeless?

If God is beyond human comprehension, why is it not just that our universe is beyond human comprehension?

If you're going the logical route and believe in intelligent design, I'd like to get your thoughts on those questions.

God is just there. There is no origin or beginning for God. He is eternal and causeless.

Our universe is eternal and causeless. No beginning and no end. Time will go forwards and backwards eternally, without cause.

Our universe is beyond human comprehension, at least this moment. Most of the universe is made up of what humans know so little - Dark Energy.

No, I do not believe in intelligent design. No, I do not believe in creationism. No, I do not believe in evolution. I do not believe in the Big Bang Theory. I accept the theory of evolution as a plausible theory for the explanation of the origin of species. I accept the Big Bang Theory as a plausible theory for the explanation of the evolution of the universe.

Nails74 · Jun 14, 2012

Question.Everything said:
If our universe is so complex that it couldn't have happened without a designer, how is it possible that God does not have a designer?

If God is special in that he's eternal and causeless, why is it not that our universe may be eternal and causeless?

If God is beyond human comprehension, why is it not just that our universe is beyond human comprehension?

If you're going the logical route and believe in intelligent design, I'd like to get your thoughts on those questions.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. All things were created through Him, and apart from Him not one thing was created that has been created. Life was in Him, and that life was the light of men. That light shines in the darkness, yet the darkness did not overcome it. [John 1:1-5]

Hestha · Jun 14, 2012

Nails74 said:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. All things were created through Him, and apart from Him not one thing was created that has been created. Life was in Him, and that life was the light of men. That light shines in the darkness, yet the darkness did not overcome it. [John 1:1-5]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God. He was with God in the beginning.

I suppose this means that no one else is there to speak, write or hear God.

All things were created though Him, and apart from Him not one thing was created that has been created.

Everything must go through God. Nothing is created without God.

Life was in Him, and that life was the light of men.

Inside God, which is the essence or core of God, is the light of men, which means enlightened men created God?

That light shines in the darkness, yet the darkness did not overcome it.

The light of men, presumably the ideas that come from enlightened men, shines in the darkness (ignorance). At the same time, the darkness (ignorance) does not overcome it. The light shines though, and therefore, God was created by Man in order to create the first Biblical characters, Adam and Eve.

Sorry, but am I interpreting this correctly?

Nails74 · Jun 14, 2012

Hestha said:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God. He was with God in the beginning.

I suppose this means that no one else is there to speak, write or hear God.

Jesus (the Word...see John 1:14) was with the Father...in the beginning. Think Genesis 1:1. The Godhead has eternally existed.

Hestha said:
All things were created though Him, and apart from Him not one thing was created that has been created.

Everything must go through God. Nothing is created without God.

You got it!

Hestha said:
Life was in Him, and that life was the light of men.

Inside God, which is the essence or core of God, is the light of men, which means enlightened men created God?

Remember...God was in the beginning...not created.
Life, in this case, is eternal life. Eternal life only comes through the Son (Jesus), elsewhere referred to as the light.

Hestha said:
That light shines in the darkness, yet the darkness did not overcome it.

The light of men, presumably the ideas that come from enlightened men, shines in the darkness (ignorance). At the same time, the darkness (ignorance) does not overcome it. The light shines though, and therefore, God was created by Man in order to create the first Biblical characters, Adam and Eve.

John sets up a theme found in his Gospel of light vs dark. A read through John will help to understand this.

Question.Everything · Jun 14, 2012

elopez said:
God is distinct from the universe, and vice versa. In that, the significant differences between God and the universe is what constitutes the universe as something that is caused and brought into existence. For example, the universe is material; God is immaterial.

Why must the universe be caused?

drich0150 · Jun 14, 2012

Question.Everything said:
If our universe is so complex that it couldn't have happened without a designer, how is it possible that God does not have a designer?

Who or what would create the creator?

If God is special in that he's eternal and causeless, why is it not that our universe may be eternal and causeless?

Because 'science' says the universe had a beginning and a cause.

If God is beyond human comprehension, why is it not just that our universe is beyond human comprehension?

Because in a few hundred years of study man has claimed to unlocked/comprehended the mysteries of this universe.

If you're going the logical route and believe in intelligent design, I'd like to get your thoughts on those questions.

In short God states to be infinite and unknowable beyond what has been revealed, on the other hand we/science has claimed to have unlocked nearly every mystery of the universe.

Question.Everything · Jun 14, 2012

Hestha said:
God is just there. There is no origin or beginning for God. He is eternal and causeless.

Our universe is eternal and causeless. No beginning and no end. Time will go forwards and backwards eternally, without cause.

Our universe is beyond human comprehension, at least this moment. Most of the universe is made up of what humans know so little - Dark Energy.

No, I do not believe in intelligent design. No, I do not believe in creationism. No, I do not believe in evolution. I do not believe in the Big Bang Theory. I accept the theory of evolution as a plausible theory for the explanation of the origin of species. I accept the Big Bang Theory as a plausible theory for the explanation of the evolution of the universe.

So why do you say "God is just there."? Seems like very poor reasoning for any argument.

Question.Everything · Jun 14, 2012

Nails74 said:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. All things were created through Him, and apart from Him not one thing was created that has been created. Life was in Him, and that life was the light of men. That light shines in the darkness, yet the darkness did not overcome it. [John 1:1-5]

That literally says nothing except "God exists because he does."

Question.Everything · Jun 14, 2012

drich0150 said:
Who or what would create the creator?

Nobody, there is no creator. That is why the intelligent design argument is logically inconsistent.

Because 'science' says the universe had a beginning and a cause.

No, science says the universe grew from an infinitesimally (incomprehensibly) small point. Science does not know if the point had a cause or origin.

Because in a few hundred years of study man has claimed to unlocked/comprehended the mysteries of this universe.

It very well has not. The greatest mysteries of the universe are left mysteries at this point. What was before the Big Bang? Why does gravity exist? Why does electricity exist? No scientist can answer these questions. I encourage you to approach science with an unbiased viewpoint.

In short God states to be infinite and unknowable beyond what has been revealed, on the other hand we/science has claimed to have unlocked nearly every mystery of the universe.

No scientist claims to know the mysteries of the universe, even the brightest of the human genome (Einstein) acknowledged that there are things that will always be mysterious to us.

Where are you getting your information?

aiki · Jun 14, 2012

If our universe is so complex that it couldn't have happened without a designer, how is it possible that God does not have a designer?

Why can't a circle have right angles, or a fish have feathers? By definition, a circle has no right angles and fish have no feathers. Likewise, by definition God has no designer. If He did have a designer, then His designer would necessarily be superior to Him and thus His God. All you do by positing a designer of God is set the First Cause back a step. In any case, the concept of God, at least in the Christian worldview, necessarily entails that God is causeless. God cannot be God if He is not causeless just like a circle cannot be a circle if it has a right angle.

If God is special in that he's eternal and causeless, why is it not that our universe may be eternal and causeless?

Because God is a Cause, the First Cause, in fact, while the universe is the effect of a cause. Mainstream secular science has established by way of the Big Bang Theory that the universe began to exist a finite time ago, which points very clearly to the universe being an effect, not a cause. "Ex nihilo, nihilo fit." Also, there are serious logical problems with holding that the universe is infinite. For example, it is impossible for the universe to have arrived at the present moment because, if the universe has an infinite existence, there is an infinite span of time existing before this moment which is, because it is infinite, impossible to cross.

If God is beyond human comprehension, why is it not just that our universe is beyond human comprehension?

It is very likely that there are aspects of the universe which are beyond our comprehension - at least at the moment. But the universe is not utterly beyond our comprehension. In fact, there are many things about it that we do know. And some of those things indicate that the universe is finite and caused.

Selah.

Hestha · Jun 15, 2012

Question.Everything said:
So why do you say "God is just there."? Seems like very poor reasoning for any argument.

I say that "God is just there," because I have read that piece of information from my DK book about the Bible. DK Publishing is a publishing house, famous for its reference/non-fiction books. I think that is what Christians believe, and to the best of my knowledge, I think that is part of Christian theology about God.

Hey, you're the one who asked what is the origin of God! So, I just report what I've read thus far. You are free to believe it or not believe it. I do not think the Bible really goes into detail about or explain the origin of God, so that part may be left up to personal conjecture.

Nails74 · Jun 15, 2012

Hestha said:
I say that "God is just there," because I have read that piece of information from my DK book about the Bible. DK Publishing is a publishing house, famous for its reference/non-fiction books. I think that is what Christians believe, and to the best of my knowledge, I think that is part of Christian theology about God.

Hey, you're the one who asked what is the origin of God! So, I just report what I've read thus far. You are free to believe it or not believe it. I do not think the Bible really goes into detail about or explain the origin of God, so that part may be left up to personal conjecture.

You are on the right track Hestha...except for the origin bit. God has no origin...he is eternal.

For Gods wrath is revealed from heaven against all godlessness and unrighteousness of people who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth, since what can be known about God is evident among them, because God has shown it to them. For His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what He has made. As a result, people are without excuse. For though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or show gratitude. Instead, their thinking became nonsense, and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man, birds, four-footed animals, and reptiles. [Romans 1:18-23]

Nails74 · Jun 15, 2012

Question.Everything said:
Nobody, there is no creator. That is why the intelligent design argument is logically inconsistent.

Logically inconsistent? Let's follow that through for a bit...
Do you believe that there are laws of logic?

Hestha · Jun 15, 2012

Nails74 said:
Logically inconsistent? Let's follow that through for a bit...
Do you believe that there are laws of logic?

Nails74:

I think I know where you are going. Have you read this article?

Atheism: An Irrational Worldview - Answers in Genesis

Apparently, the author somehow connects the laws of logic to the existence of God, simply because both entities share the same characteristics.

Question.Everything · Jun 15, 2012

aiki said:
Why can't a circle have right angles, or a fish have feathers? By definition, a circle has no right angles and fish have no feathers. Likewise, by definition God has no designer. If He did have a designer, then His designer would necessarily be superior to Him and thus His God. All you do by positing a designer of God is set the First Cause back a step. In any case, the concept of God, at least in the Christian worldview, necessarily entails that God is causeless. God cannot be God if He is not causeless just like a circle cannot be a circle if it has a right angle.

"All you do by positing a designer of God is set the First Cause back a step."

That is exactly what you are doing! Why is it that our universe is not the First Cause? If something complex (God) can be causeless, why not just save yourself a step and use Occam's Razor to slice down God and say physical laws are causeless?

Because God is a Cause, the First Cause, in fact, while the universe is the effect of a cause. Mainstream secular science has established by way of the Big Bang Theory that the universe began to exist a finite time ago, which points very clearly to the universe being an effect, not a cause. "Ex nihilo, nihilo fit."

Mainstream secular science cannot explain the Big Bang without using an infinitely (impossibly) small point. We know nothing of the root 'cause' of our universe, if any.

Also, there are serious logical problems with holding that the universe is infinite. For example, it is impossible for the universe to have arrived at the present moment because, if the universe has an infinite existence, there is an infinite span of time existing before this moment which is, because it is infinite, impossible to cross.

Infinite, much like the point of the Big Bang .

But the universe is not utterly beyond our comprehension.

That's not really my place to say.

In fact, there are many things about it that we do know. And some of those things indicate that the universe is finite and caused.

Well first, I see nothing to indicate that the universe was caused. I'd be happy to look at any evidence for that.

Second, there are things that indicate the universe is infinite and not finite. To judge that, we should look at the possible beginning and end of the universe. In the beginning we have the Big Bang exploding out of an infinitesimally small point...seems like a good case for an infinite beginning. In the end our best guesses have the universe expanding pretty much forever, until everything is so spaced out the universe is black from every point. Here it would rest for infinity.

The universe never began (although it did become active), and it will never end (only lose activity).

Question.Everything · Jun 15, 2012

Hestha said:
I say that "God is just there," because I have read that piece of information from my DK book about the Bible. DK Publishing is a publishing house, famous for its reference/non-fiction books. I think that is what Christians believe, and to the best of my knowledge, I think that is part of Christian theology about God.

Hey, you're the one who asked what is the origin of God! So, I just report what I've read thus far. You are free to believe it or not believe it. I do not think the Bible really goes into detail about or explain the origin of God, so that part may be left up to personal conjecture.

Question.Everything · Jun 15, 2012

Nails74 said:
Logically inconsistent? Let's follow that through for a bit...
Do you believe that there are laws of logic?

Laws like gravity? That's a tough philosophical argument. I think logic is a way of thinking about things, and yes it is branched into different topics/fallacies.

Nails74 · Jun 15, 2012

Question.Everything said:
Laws like gravity? That's a tough philosophical argument. I think logic is a way of thinking about things, and yes it is branched into different topics/fallacies.

No, not scientific laws...laws of logic. For example, the law of non-contradiction. The $100 bill in my wallet is either in my wallet or not in my wallet. It cannot be both at the same time. Would you agree with that?

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