Intelligent Design / Evolution

[idscience]

And you will note I had absolutely no problem agreeing with Z when he was right.

Yeh, I see you agreed with a lot of what he said.

 

[idscience]

Here is an interesting interview of Dr. Ewert.


A True Skeptic Is an Informed Skeptic: Dr. Donald L. Ewert on Why He Doubts Darwin

 

[Blayz]

Here is an interesting interview of Dr. Ewert.


A True Skeptic Is an Informed Skeptic: Dr. Donald L. Ewert on Why He Doubts Darwin

I don't do podcasts. Here's an article by a Christian explaining in layman's terms the complex interplay and analogy between evolution and the immune system

Evolution and Immunity: Same Story? | BioLogos

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

Well, it was a DI expert that you are questioning, I thought maybe you would be interested in his expert replies. But, they would probably be misrepresented as Behe was. Listen to the opposition, then just say what you want and claim that is what they said. What else can you do when you can't refute evidence?



Judge Jones was lazy and most likely didn't know what he was saying in his closing statement as it wasn't his words.

• " In fact, 90.9% (or 5,458 words) of Judge Jones' 6,004- word section on intelligent design as science was taken virtually verbatim from the ACLU's proposed "Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law" submitted to Judge Jones nearly a month before his ruling. Judge Jones even copied several clearly erroneous factual claims made by the ACLU." (By: David DeWolf & John West)

Evidence and information doesn't impress you because your ideology is primary.

Miller has to arguments. he has ideas.

An Immunologist Explains Why the Immune System Isn't an Example of Darwinian Evolution

What Does Evolution Have to Do With Immunology? Not Much
"microbiologist and immunologist Donald Ewert about his previous work as associate editor for the journal Development and Comparitive Immunology, where he realized that the papers published were comparative studies that had nothing to do with evolution at all... Donald L. Ewert is a research immunologist/virologist who spent much of his career studying the molecular and cell biology of the immune system, as well as theories about its evolution."

"A Masterful Feat of Courtroom Deception": Immunologist Donald Ewert on Dover

In Defense of the Irreducibility of the Blood Clotting Cascade:
Response to Russell Doolittle, Ken Miller and Keith Robison

"A True Acid Test": Response to Ken Miller
By: Michael J. Behe

Bacterial Flagellum (Irreducible Complexity) 34,257,574,

About Irreducible Complexity
Responding to Darwinists Claiming to Have Explained Away the Challenge of Irreducible Complexity

You missed the part where I asked for papers. I don't give a crap about opinion pieces.

 

[idscience]

You missed the part where I asked for papers. I don't give a crap about opinion pieces.

Ok so present one! You want me to produce a paper that shows how evolution didn't occur? Ball is in your court sir. You have made the claim it did occur, you produce the paper.

There are no papers. It didn't happen. As stated, non of the papers from the Dover trial explained the evolution of the immune system. They were all descriptive papers on how it works. Nothing on how it was built.

You present some evidence for a change.

 

[idscience]

I don't do podcasts. Here's an article by a Christian explaining in layman's terms the complex interplay and analogy between evolution and the immune system

Evolution and Immunity: Same Story? | BioLogos

Thats probably a good thing. YOu don't want to hear what the doctor says anyway.
Adaptive Immunity: Chance or Necessity?

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

Ok so present one! You want me to produce a paper that shows how evolution didn't occur? Ball is in your court sir. You have made the claim it did occur, you produce the paper.

There are no papers. It didn't happen. As stated, non of the papers from the Dover trial explained the evolution of the immune system. They were all descriptive papers on how it works. Nothing on how it was built.

You present some evidence for a change.

I have a list of papers on the evolution of the immune system that are ready to go. I suggest we start a new thread. Want to go for it? There's several people on this forum that are experts in immunology.

 

[idscience]

I have a list of papers on the evolution of the immune system that are ready to go. I suggest we start a new thread. Want to go for it? There's several people on this forum that are experts in immunology.

I presume these are all papers newer than the dover trial? Do you claim to be an expert?

Go ahead start a new thread with your experts. I am not an expert in immunology so will have to consult with some who are.

Present your peer reviewed papers one at a time, starting from what you think is the most convincing. We will start from there.

Pulling another Perry Mason and dropping a dozen irrelevant papers isn't productive, or worth my time, so don't try to Jones anybody.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

I presume these are all papers newer than the dover trial? Do you claim to be an expert?

Go ahead start a new thread with your experts. I am not an expert in immunology so will have to consult with some who are.

Present your peer reviewed papers one at a time, starting from what you think is the most convincing. We will start from there.

Pulling another Perry Mason and dropping a dozen irrelevant papers isn't productive, or worth my time, so don't try to Jones anybody.

I am not an expert on immunology. But I have taken several courses in it and have a decent grasp of the main principles (to the level that a physician or someone with an undergraduate biology degree would be expected to have). I doubt, however, that you've taken any coursework in it. Is that true? If you do not know the fundamentals of immunology, I don't know how productive our conversation would be.

 

[idscience]

I am not an expert on immunology. But I have taken several courses in it and have a decent grasp of the main principles (to the level that a physician or someone with an undergraduate biology degree would be expected to have). I doubt, however, that you've taken any coursework in it. Is that true? If you do not know the fundamentals of immunology, I don't know how productive our conversation would be.

It would not be so much of a conversation as a presenting of materials from experts. No are not in a position youself either to debate the issue.

However, I would be interested in seeing the papers and arguments for the evolution of the immune system. I am not the only one viewing the conversation either, maybe some more will join in, others will better understand the tech issues involved. So, it is good to air all the material because we don't know who watching will be affected, yes?

Start your thread, I am interested.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

It would not be so much of a conversation as a presenting of materials from experts. No are not in a position youself either to debate the issue.

However, I would be interested in seeing the papers and arguments for the evolution of the immune system. I am not the only one viewing the conversation either, maybe some more will join in, others will better understand the tech issues involved. So, it is good to air all the material because we don't know who watching will be affected, yes?

Start your thread, I am interested.

I am in a far better position to discuss the issue than you. Like I said, I have taken coursework in immunology (at the undergraduate and professional level). The papers I would be posting would require a fundamental understanding of the way the immune system is organized, the genetic basis of it, and how the mechanisms work. If you don't, for example, understand the genetics of how lymphocyte receptor genes work, how then can I show you the evolution of that system and it make any sense?

It's not a situation where each of us would be simply copy/pasting articles that favor our side. We would have to have an actual conversation about what the papers mean.

I cannot catch you up to speed on the past 50 years of immunology research. I don't even know if you have much of an understanding of modern genetics or molecular biology, much less a subject as complex as immunology (one of the most complicated subjects in all of biomedical science).

 

[idscience]

I am in a far better position to discuss the issue than you. Like I said, I have taken coursework in immunology (at the undergraduate and professional level). The papers I would be posting would require a fundamental understanding of the way the immune system is organized, the genetic basis of it, and how the mechanisms work. If you don't, for example, understand the genetics of how lymphocyte receptor genes work, how then can I show you the evolution of that system and it make any sense?

It's not a situation where each of us would be simply copy/pasting articles that favor our side. We would have to have an actual conversation about what the papers mean.

I cannot catch you up to speed on the past 50 years of immunology research. I don't even know if you have much of an understanding of modern genetics or molecular biology, much less a subject as complex as immunology (one of the most complicated subjects in all of biomedical science).

You would not need to catch me up on the last 50 years as Dover was only a few years ago and apparently there was nothing in their best papers. It sounds like you are begging out now.

Post your paper, make your case. Let the experts here chimb in.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

You would not need to catch me up on the last 50 years as Dover was only a few years ago and apparently there was nothing in their best papers. It sounds like you are begging out now.

Post your paper, make your case. Let the experts here chimb in.

I found an interesting one, once I finish reading it I'll post it. You might not be able to have access to it, it's a Nature Genetics Review which you have to have a subscription to.

Here's the paper if you can find access to it:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19997068

 

[Blayz]

I found an interesting one, once I finish reading it I'll post it. You might not be able to have access to it, it's a Nature Genetics Review which you have to have a subscription to.

Here's the paper if you can find access to it:
Origin and evolution of the adaptive immune sy... [Nat Rev Genet. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI

I'm going to "critique" in the style of idscience:

Two macroevolutionary events are believed to have contributed to the genesis of the AIS: the emergence of the recombination-activating gene (RAG) transposon, and two rounds of whole-genome duplication. It has recently been discovered that a non-RAG-based AIS with similarities to the jawed vertebrate AIS - including two lymphoid cell lineages - arose in jawless fish by convergent evolution. We offer insights into the latest advances in this field and speculate on the selective pressures that led to the emergence and maintenance of the AIS.

Is that the best you have, LHM? "are believed", "with similarities" and speculation? More evolutionaryismnessist propaganda with no evidence!

 

[idscience]

I'm going to "critique" in the style of idscience:



Is that the best you have, LHM? "are believed", "with similarities" and speculation? More evolutionaryismnessist propaganda with no evidence!

Glad you chimed in again with nothing to say.
Interesting you have not critiqued anything posted. Just like to sit back in the dark and snipe do ya.

You seem to be a very angry sort.
I can only imagine your stress in trying to maintain belief while it crumbles around you.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

I'm going to "critique" in the style of idscience:


Is that the best you have, LHM? "are believed", "with similarities" and speculation? More evolutionaryismnessist propaganda with no evidence!

As an immuno guy, what are your thoughts on the interesting convergence of the VLR lymphocyte lineage in jawless fish, and the evolution of the B cell/T cell/MHC system in gnathostomes?

Gotta say, I'm glad I was cruising papers on this subject because after reading that one I find it very fascinating. So thanks idscience

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

Glad you chimed in again with nothing to say.
Interesting you have not critiqued anything posted. Just like to sit back in the dark and snipe do ya.

You seem to be a very angry sort.
I can only imagine your stress in trying to maintain belief while it crumbles around you.

Hey you should be reading that paper!

 

[Blayz]

Glad you chimed in again with nothing to say.

As opposed to this post of yours. I actual took all the wind out of your sails, didn't I. Go on, prove me wrong. Rebut that paper.

Maybe you should wait for Z again? Worked for you last time.

I can only imagine your stress in trying to maintain belief while it crumbles around you.

self projection much?

 

[idscience]

As opposed to this post of yours. I actual took all the wind out of your sails, didn't I. Go on, prove me wrong. Rebut that paper.
Maybe you should wait for Z again? Worked for you last time.
self projection much?

Ok Mr. Backseat.

 

[Blayz]

As an immuno guy, what are your thoughts on the interesting convergence of the VLR lymphocyte lineage in jawless fish, and the evolution of the B cell/T cell/MHC system in gnathostomes?

Convergent evolution is always interesting, be it wings, eyes or the immune system. I think the evidence supports that the basic building blocks of an adaptive immune response were already there before the split, meaning that there is a strong fitness advantage in having an adaptive response if you can build one. More specifically, jawless fish are creepy.