Intelligent Design, Creationism and Deism

The Barbarian

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Does bacteria evolve or does the bacteria that is resistant to drugs survive and reproduce?

That depends on whether the mutation always existed or if it came about later. Hall's bacteria showed that new mutations are often involved in evolution. Because he knew the genome of the first bacterium in the culture, it was easy to document the evolution of new characteristics.

Isn't this more natural selection than evolution?

Natural selection can cause evolution as in the case of those bacteria.
 
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Landon Caeli

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Does bacteria evolve or does the bacteria that is resistant to drugs survive and reproduce? Isn't this more natural selection than evolution?

I'm under the impression that every successful mutation is evolution. The word "species" is just a categorical term for us people to use to classify animals into types for communication purposes.
 
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Landon Caeli

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That would be confusing "design" with "intent." Designers figure out things. An omnipotent Creator does not; He already knows.

That's where I stand as well... That God knew, or knows - depending on where he is in time as we understand it.

For God, I believe evolution occured from fish to human in a blink of an eye's time. Though, I'm sure he can stop time, and speed it or slow it from his perspective at will.

...The biblical evidence for this, being that Jesus existed at the beginning of time, even though he was born of the virgin Mary. Also, the Bible mentions something about 1000 years being like 1 year for God. I don't think God can be restricted by the parameters of time as *we* know it.
 
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Landon Caeli

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If we could have placed a camcorder on earth upon creation, and watched life evolve all the way to the current moment, and sped it up to last 2 seconds, perhaps we would understand God's view.

In this way, we were created almost instantaneously.
 
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The Barbarian

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That's where I stand as well... That God knew, or knows - depending on where he is in time as we understand it.

For God, I believe evolution occured from fish to human in a blink of an eye's time. Though, I'm sure he can stop time, and speed it or slow it from his perspective at will.

...The biblical evidence for this, being that Jesus existed at the beginning of time, even though he was born of the virgin Mary. Also, the Bible mentions something about 1000 years being like 1 year for God. I don't think God can be restricted by the parameters of time as *we* know it.

I think that's pretty close to the reality. Since God exists outside of time, He cannot be bound by it in any way.
 
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J_B_

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That would be confusing "design" with "intent." Designers figure out things. An omnipotent Creator does not; He already knows.

Semantic games. I don't pay attention to all the politics that followed after Dembski's original publication. In reading the original, I never got an indication of what you're saying. If current IDers are saying such things, too bad. As for what I gleaned from the original, and per my usage of the word "design", this does not represent my view of what ID is.

Regardless, all I meant to ask was how you were coming to the conclusion these people are deists. Such accusations are typically polemics that have never been discussed with the person being accused, and as such don't amount to much more than gossip.
 
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J_B_

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That's where I stand as well... That God knew, or knows - depending on where he is in time as we understand it.

I like how you've phrased this, not trying to pretend we have some exact explanation of God's relationship to time, but leaving these mysteries to God.

For God, I believe evolution occured from fish to human in a blink of an eye's time. Though, I'm sure he can stop time, and speed it or slow it from his perspective at will.

...The biblical evidence for this, being that Jesus existed at the beginning of time, even though he was born of the virgin Mary. Also, the Bible mentions something about 1000 years being like 1 year for God. I don't think God can be restricted by the parameters of time as *we* know it.

However, the first statement doesn't make much sense, and the second is a misunderstanding of the Incarnation.

I think that's pretty close to the reality. Since God exists outside of time, He cannot be bound by it in any way.

God being "outside time" is stringing together words in a way that conveys no meaning (per Chomsky). Most of the time I ignore that phrase when people use it because it tends to convey a sense of mystery about God, and I'm cool with that. But there is this odd tendency to shrug and say "it's a mystery" followed by an attempt to explain the mystery.
 
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The Barbarian

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God being "outside time" is stringing together words in a way that conveys no meaning (per Chomsky).

Per science, it makes all sorts of sense. Time is not some imaginary thing that just keeps everything from happening at once; it's a very real property of the universe in which we live, and works according to specific physical laws. So God, having created the universe, is not in anyway constrained by any property of that creation.
 
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The Barbarian

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Semantic games. I don't pay attention to all the politics that followed after Dembski's original publication. In reading the original, I never got an indication of what you're saying. If current IDers are saying such things, too bad. As for what I gleaned from the original, and per my usage of the word "design", this does not represent my view of what ID is.

As the decision in the Dover Trial made clear, "design" was a semantic game intended to make creationism legally possible as a public school subject. The existence of a transitional form between "creationist" and "design advocate" (via a typographic error) in Pandas and People made that very clear.

ID seems to be a rather mixed bag, from YE creationists (Phillip Johnson) to evolutionists who just think God needs to step in and tinker with the system now and then (Michael Behe) to people who are indistinguishable from deists (Michael Denton). There are also agnostic IDers, I'm told, although I haven't met any as of yet.

Regardless, all I meant to ask was how you were coming to the conclusion these people are deists.

t is important to emphasize at the outset that the argument presented here is entirely consistent with the basic naturalistic assumption of modern science–that the cosmos is a seamless unity which can be comprehended in its entirety by human reason and in which all phenomena, including life and evolution and the origin of man, are ultimately explicable in terms of natural processes. This is an assumption which is entirely opposed to that of the so-called “special creationist school.” According to special creationism, living organisms are not natural forms, whose origin and design were built into the laws of nature from the beginning, but rather contingent forms analogous in essence to human artifacts, the result of a series of supernatural acts, involving God’s direct intervention in the course of nature, each of which involved the suspension of natural law. Contrary to the creationist position, the whole argument presented here is critically dependent on the presumption of the unbroken continuity of the organic world–that is, on the reality of organic evolution and on the presumption that all living organisms on earth are natural forms in the profoundest sense of the word, no less natural than salt crystals, atoms, waterfalls, or galaxies.

In large measure, therefore, the teleological argument presented here and the special creationist worldview are mutually exclusive accounts of the world. In the last analysis, evidence for one is evidence against the other. Put simply, the more convincing is the evidence for believing that the world is prefabricated to the end of life, that the design is built into the laws of nature, the less credible becomes the special creationist worldview.

Discovery Institute Fellow Michael Denton, Nature's Destiny

This looks like deism, having a teleological belief of a purposeful beginning without any divine intervention once the universe begins. That's pretty much pure Spinozan deism.
 
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J_B_

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ID seems to be a rather mixed bag ...

I'm not surprised politics has caused the original idea to drift into an amorphous vaguery.

t is important to emphasize at the outset that the argument presented here is entirely consistent with the basic naturalistic assumption of modern science–that the cosmos is a seamless unity which can be comprehended in its entirety by human reason and in which all phenomena, including life and evolution and the origin of man, are ultimately explicable in terms of natural processes. This is an assumption which is entirely opposed to that of the so-called “special creationist school.” According to special creationism, living organisms are not natural forms, whose origin and design were built into the laws of nature from the beginning, but rather contingent forms analogous in essence to human artifacts, the result of a series of supernatural acts, involving God’s direct intervention in the course of nature, each of which involved the suspension of natural law. Contrary to the creationist position, the whole argument presented here is critically dependent on the presumption of the unbroken continuity of the organic world–that is, on the reality of organic evolution and on the presumption that all living organisms on earth are natural forms in the profoundest sense of the word, no less natural than salt crystals, atoms, waterfalls, or galaxies.

In large measure, therefore, the teleological argument presented here and the special creationist worldview are mutually exclusive accounts of the world. In the last analysis, evidence for one is evidence against the other. Put simply, the more convincing is the evidence for believing that the world is prefabricated to the end of life, that the design is built into the laws of nature, the less credible becomes the special creationist worldview.

Discovery Institute Fellow Michael Denton, Nature's Destiny

This looks like deism, having a teleological belief of a purposeful beginning without any divine intervention once the universe begins. That's pretty much pure Spinozan deism.

Fair enough, though we'd all be better served, and it would be interesting, if that charge could be expressed to the author.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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If humans didn't evolve, then why do men have nipples? Did they at one time in the evolution process, need them?

I accept Teilhard De Chardin's explanation. Chardin was a scientist and Jesuit priest, who worked on the team that discovered Peking Man.

His theory was that humans evolved biologically, until about 10,000 years ago. Then, the biological evolution slowed way down. However, the intellectual and spiritual evolution continued and continues today.
 
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J_B_

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Per science, it makes all sorts of sense. Time is not some imaginary thing that just keeps everything from happening at once; it's a very real property of the universe in which we live, and works according to specific physical laws. So God, having created the universe, is not in anyway constrained by any property of that creation.

I'm not aware of any currently accepted science that deals with God and his being outside of time.

As to whether time is a thing or a concept - that is something you'll find physicists debating. IMO time is a concept. If you think time is an existential entity that is apart from all other things, I'd be curious to hear an explanation of that.
 
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The Barbarian

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I'm not aware of any currently accepted science that deals with God and his being outside of time.

Since science can make no comments about God at all, that's true. I'm just pointing out that what science has discovered about time shows that it is a part of this universe, and therefore God is not constrained by it.

As to whether time is a thing or a concept - that is something you'll find physicists debating.

If it wasn't a thing, then acceleration would not change it. And it measurably does.

IMO time is a concept.

That's the funny thing about reality; it doesn't care what we think of it.

If you think time is an existential entity

Can you give an example of a non-existential entity?

that is apart from all other things,

Can you name any thing in the universe that's apart from all other things? I'd be curious to hear an explanation of that.
 
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J_B_

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Since science can make no comments about God at all, that's true. I'm just pointing out that what science has discovered about time shows that it is a part of this universe, and therefore God is not constrained by it.

If I fire a projectile, I can calculate the angle of its trajectory with respect to a (flat) ground. That angle changes as it moves through its trajectory. Is the angle a thing, such that there is some interaction between the angle and the physical world? No. The angle is simply a measure of the interaction between the projectile and gravity. Therefore, change in a parameter is not sufficient to establish it as a thing - an entity.

Time is not an entity, and it does not interact with the physical world. Time is a measure of motion. As an object accelerates, the interaction of that object with the physical world can be measured as a contraction in time.

Abstract concepts only exist in the sense that they are part of my thoughts, and my thoughts are chemical reactions in my brain. Abstract entities (such as time) do not exist apart from my thoughts. Another example would be the concept of infinity.

Things that exist apart from other things are many. One example would be an electron. It was once proposed that there is only one electron, and all manifestations of electron activity are only a phenomena of the One Electron. That idea has since been dismissed. An electron here is not the same thing as an electron there. I can specify the location of one electron (within the limitations of the Uncertainty Principle and restrictions on knowing position and momentum), and that electron is a thing that exists apart from specifying the location of a second electron. Such is the case for many things at many different scales.

These things exhibit themselves in terms of properties such as location, size, mass, temperature, charge, etc. and can be counted. It's a good question to ask oneself when pondering whether an entity is a thing that exists in the physical world or just an abstract concept. Can I have an infinity that is located here, but not there? An infinity that has size? Definitely not on that one. Likewise, I cannot have one unit of time here, but lack a unit of time there. I can't weigh time, take its temperature, measure its charge ... and so forth.

It is true that God is not constrained by the things of this world. But "outside time" is not something physics has defined; it has no meaning. What would it mean to be constrained by time? God aside (and SciFi also for that matter), what is time doing that constrains me? I can't think of anything.
 
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The Barbarian

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If I fire a projectile, I can calculate the angle of its trajectory with respect to a (flat) ground. That angle changes as it moves through its trajectory. Is the angle a thing, such that there is some interaction between the angle and the physical world? No. The angle is simply a measure of the interaction between the projectile and gravity. Therefore, change in a parameter is not sufficient to establish it as a thing - an entity.

On the other hand, we know that time is a measurable quantity that like space, is affected by mass and velocity. Hence, it's an entity.

Time is not an entity, and it does not interact with the physical world.

That was tested on an Apollo mission. A sensitive clock was sent along and time was indeed affected by the velocity of the vehicle.

Can I have an infinity that is located here, but not there?

As the Apollo mission showed, you can have a time here, but a different time there.

As an object accelerates, the interaction of that object with the physical world can be measured as a contraction in time.

How does something that does not exist, "contract?"

Likewise, I cannot have one unit of time here, but lack a unit of time there.

Can you have a unit of space here, but lack a unit of space there? So is space not a thing? If so, how is it that mass distorts space? Can you distort something that doesn't exist?

It is true that God is not constrained by the things of this world. But "outside time" is not something physics has defined;

Physics can't do that. It can only consider the natural. Physics can't even say whether or not the supernatural exists.

But physicists can.

it has no meaning.

As you have seen, it has a very specific meaning. Time is a property of our universe as are mass, energy and space. God is not constrained by any of those things, being outside of the Universe He created, even as it functions in the way He created it to do, and continues to assure that it does.

There's One Way Time Travel Could Be Possible, According to This Physicist
 
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J_B_

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As you have seen, it has a very specific meaning.

I've seen nothing of the kind.

Correct. Space is not a thing. It is a measure of the separation of things.

No one has measured time. They measure motion ... or more specifically, they measure distance. All measures eventually reduce to distance.

In the experiments you mentioned, no one measured the great cosmic clock while things were in motion. Rather, someone measured a thing - a collection of human constructed things - that are called a clock, and this clock was put in motion.

How is time defined by SI? It is the change in a caesium atom. The thing is caesium, not time. There is no thing we can call time that is being measured. There is a thing called caesium that we measure, and we call that measure time. Further, if you consider the change being measured - the motion - the fundamental result is a distance.

If time is a thing, you should be able to point to that thing so I can measure it. Not measure hands on a clock, or digital numbers on a display, or an element like caesium, but some thing apart from all of that we can call time and which we can measure.

It would be nice if you could convey whether you understand what I've said. I can't tell for sure, but it seems you don't because your reply didn't address the essence of my argument. That's not meant to be a jab at you. Clear communication can be difficult sometimes, so I want to be sure I'm expressing my position clearly.
 
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The Barbarian

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Correct. Space is not a thing. It is a measure of the separation of things.

How is it possible for mass to distort something that is not a thing?

Einstein correctly predicted that a solar eclipse would show the distortion of space around the Sun due to the Sun's mass.. And his prediction was verified. How is it possible to bend something that is not a thing?
 
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The Barbarian

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If time is a thing, you should be able to point to that thing so I can measure it. Not measure hands on a clock, or digital numbers on a display, or an element like caesium, but some thing apart from all of that we can call time and which we can measure.

If space is a thing, you should be able to point to that thing so I measure it. Not measure numbers on a tape or digital numbers on a rangefinder, but some thing apart from all that we call space and which we can measure.

If kinetic energy is a thing you should be able to point to that thing so I can measure it. Not measure numbers on a force transducer but some thing apart from all of that we can call energy and which we can measure.

But the fact that mass physically changes space makes it clear that it is a thing. Likewise the fact that velocity changes time, makes it clear that it is a thing.
 
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J_B_

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If space is a thing, you should be able to point to that thing so I measure it. Not measure numbers on a tape or digital numbers on a rangefinder, but some thing apart from all that we call space and which we can measure.

If kinetic energy is a thing you should be able to point to that thing so I can measure it. Not measure numbers on a force transducer but some thing apart from all of that we can call energy and which we can measure.

Yup. I might nitpick you on a few things here and there, but essentially this all follows from what I said. I'm not sure if this is meant to answer my request, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

How is it possible for mass to distort something that is not a thing?

Einstein correctly predicted that a solar eclipse would show the distortion of space around the Sun due to the Sun's mass.. And his prediction was verified. How is it possible to bend something that is not a thing?

I'm not disputing the validity of Einstein's predictions. They all remain correct predictions under what I'm saying. Correct predictions do not establish the measures of that prediction as a facet of reality. They are simply measures.

All I can say is that on the flipside, extending your argument for what establishes things as physical entities means the angle of a projectile trajectory is a thing that interacts with the projectile. If you're OK with accepting angles as physical things ... and I'm OK with accepting energy as an abstract concept ... then I guess we're at an impasse. It would certainly explain our very different reactions to ID, creationism, and evolution.
 
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The Barbarian

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All I can say is that on the flipside, extending your argument for what establishes things as physical entities means the angle of a projectile trajectory is a thing that interacts with the projectile. If you're OK with accepting angles as physical things

When you can show me that physical things can change angles as gravity changes space and velocity changes time, that might work.

But even in distorted space, 45 degrees remains 45 degrees.

It comes down to evidence. And since time and space are interacting with other physical things in the universe, it's impossible to argue that they aren't entities. Again, how is it possible to bend a thing that isn't a thing?
 
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