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Intelligence Inquiry

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That... is weird. And nonsense.
That reply was actually an accident, but now that I said it I'll stick with it for a while.
I thought you said "Is collecting stamps a hobby?", and I replied accordingly which turned out hilarious.

Not collecting stamps can be a hobby if the stamp not-collector intentionally avoids collecting stamps to such a degree that the first thing they do anytime they get mail is rip all the stamps off and throw them in the rubbish bin, and they enjoy throwing away the stamps.
 
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AV1611VET

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Intelligent design science is one of my passions. I wish there would be a law passed requiring Public Schools to teach children ALL the different origin stories of the Earth and Life and the Universe. Whether said stories are religious, scientific, or something else. Including Evolution and it's variations, including Creationism and it's variations, and there are probably others besides those two.
Even though they conflict and contradict each other?
 
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inquiring mind

and a discerning heart
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*whew*
Rant over.
Thoughts?
Insults?
Mostly be prepared for the evolutionist's playbook responses: You are ignorant, what does your answer even mean, Dunning-Kruger, you're lying, etc.
 
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Jonathan Walkerin

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Intelligent design science is one of my passions. I wish there would be a law passed requiring Public Schools to teach children ALL the different origin stories of the Earth and Life and the Universe. Whether said stories are religious, scientific, or something else. Including Evolution and it's variations, including Creationism and it's variations, and there are probably others besides those two.

Are you kidding ? There are tons of different creation myths. Good luck teaching every myth humankind has invented on this issue.

List of creation myths - Wikipedia

Maybe they could have extra semester to teach all the kids all of the religious text humankind has put out so they really could compare stuff.

Or maybe it is just easier to teach reality based on evidence. Those damn academics always seeking the easy way out...
 
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pitabread

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I hate it when people say the The Theory of Evolution is science and Creationism/ID is not.

You hate it when people tell the truth?

Both creationism and ID have been literally put on trial (see Edwards v. Aguillard - Wikipedia and Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District - Wikipedia).

This was directly from the judge's conclusion from the Dover case:

A significant aspect of the IDM is that despite Defendants' protestations to the contrary, it describes ID as a religious argument. In that vein, the writings of leading ID proponents reveal that the designer postulated by their argument is the God of Christianity. Dr. Barbara Forrest, one of Plaintiffs' expert witnesses, is the author of the book Creationism's Trojan Horse. She has thoroughly and exhaustively chronicled the history of ID in her book and other writings for her testimony in this case. Her testimony, and the exhibits which were admitted with it, provide a wealth of statements by ID leaders that reveal ID's religious, philosophical, and cultural content.

And,

Dramatic evidence of ID's religious nature and aspirations is found in what is referred to as the "Wedge Document." The Wedge Document, developed by the Discovery Institute's Center for Renewal of Science and Culture (hereinafter "CRSC"), represents from an institutional standpoint, the IDM's goals and objectives, much as writings from the Institute for Creation Research did for the earlier creation-science movement, as discussed in McLean. (11:26–28 (Forrest)); McLean, 529 F. Supp. at 1255. The Wedge Document states in its "Five Year Strategic Plan Summary" that the IDM's goal is to replace science as currently practiced with "theistic and Christian science." (P-140 at 6).
Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District - Wikisource, the free online library
Now I'll grant that there could be a case made for legitimate scientific inquiry into ID, but up until now (or at least up until Dover), ID was primarily a political/religious movement with the purpose to challenge science (e.g. evolution) that directly contradicted certain people's religious views (e.g. creationism).

All of this was laid bare in the Dover trial. ID proponents need to be well aware of the history of the modern ID movement. What we're seeing in this thread is exactly the type of thinking that led to the Dover trial in the first place.
 
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Jonathan Walkerin

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Not collecting stamps can be a hobby if the stamp not-collector intentionally avoids collecting stamps to such a degree that the first thing they do anytime they get mail is rip all the stamps off and throw them in the rubbish bin, and they enjoy throwing away the stamps.

This gives me a mental image of Dad and AV reading Scientific American while holding scissors in both hands.
 
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AV1611VET

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The Righterzpen

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That reply was actually an accident, but now that I said it I'll stick with it for a while.
I thought you said "Is collecting stamps a hobby?", and I replied accordingly which turned out hilarious.

Not collecting stamps can be a hobby if the stamp not-collector intentionally avoids collecting stamps to such a degree that the first thing they do anytime they get mail is rip all the stamps off and throw them in the rubbish bin, and they enjoy throwing away the stamps.

LOL - yeah they call that OCD; stampaphobia? (Is that even a word?) (No, actually it's not.) "Timbophobia" is actually listed as "fear of stamps".
 
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pitabread

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But, is the only alternative to continue letting them have the floor?

If ID proponents want to legitimately challenge evolution in the science classroom, then ID proponents need to first come up with a legitimate scientific theory of ID. People advocating for ID need to focus on the state of modern ID. This blind spot that keeps getting demonstrated in this thread is one of the reasons you get situations like the Dover trial in the first place.
 
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The Righterzpen

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No, your posts are there for all to see.

Yes, and the fact that you have not been able to counter any of my statements is there for all to see too!

Again, back to "observer belief bias"; those who are intellectually honest will acknowledge the points I've made and those who aren't will call me names! (The epitome of "mature" response there! I can't win the argument so I'll call the speaker names.)

:tutu::tutu::tutu:
 
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pitabread

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Well, we're over 200 posts in and still nobody has offered a scientific defense of ID. Nobody has still pointed to an empirically verified methodology for detecting ID in biology.

Like most ID debates, the discussion keep focusing on whining about evolution.
 
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VirOptimus

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Yes, and the fact that you have not been able to counter any of my statements is there for all to see too!

Again, back to "observer belief bias"; those who are intellectually honest will acknowledge the points I've made and those who aren't will call me names! (The epitome of "mature" response there! I can't win the argument so I'll call the speaker names.)

:tutu::tutu::tutu:

... sure! Declaring a ”win” in an internet debate is always mature.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Well, we're over 200 posts in and still nobody has offered a scientific defense of ID. And nobody has still pointed to an empirically verified methodology for detecting ID in biology.

Like most ID debates, the discussion keep focusing on whining about evolution.

Did we honestly expect anything less? I mean... I was at least hoping for something scientific from the ID crowd, but I'm let down once again.
 
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pitabread

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Did we honestly expect anything less? I mean... I was at least hoping for something scientific from the ID crowd, but I'm let down once again.

I thought we'd at least get references to irreducible complexity or maybe Dembski's specified complexity (even though I've never seen an IDist actually familiar with Dembski's work).

So far we've had a single quote re: Meyer but that wasn't to even describe ID in a biological context.

Maybe the state of modern ID is even worse than I'd thought. Certainly among popular thought, most ID proponents seem to be thoroughly unfamiliar with ID and this thread is confirming that.
 
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HitchSlap

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3. The foundation of your belief system begins with an answer and ignores all evidence to the contrary.
The foundation of my belief system does the same.

2. I like to think that ToE is not completely incompatible with Creationism, even if the origin-of-all-things part is.

1. You will refuse to admit (even the possibility how ever small) that atheism is a religion.
Why don’t you steel man my “belief system” and let’s see where it gets us. I suspect you don’t have the courage.
 
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AV1611VET

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I agree, no two creos are alike.
Kinda like DNA, huh?

Despite all our differences, ever met one who didn't believe: IN THE BEGINNING, GOD?
 
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The Righterzpen

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You hate it when people tell the truth?

Both creationism and ID have been literally put on trial (see Edwards v. Aguillard - Wikipedia and Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District - Wikipedia).

This was directly from the judge's conclusion from the Dover case:

A significant aspect of the IDM is that despite Defendants' protestations to the contrary, it describes ID as a religious argument. In that vein, the writings of leading ID proponents reveal that the designer postulated by their argument is the God of Christianity. Dr. Barbara Forrest, one of Plaintiffs' expert witnesses, is the author of the book Creationism's Trojan Horse. She has thoroughly and exhaustively chronicled the history of ID in her book and other writings for her testimony in this case. Her testimony, and the exhibits which were admitted with it, provide a wealth of statements by ID leaders that reveal ID's religious, philosophical, and cultural content.

And,

Dramatic evidence of ID's religious nature and aspirations is found in what is referred to as the "Wedge Document." The Wedge Document, developed by the Discovery Institute's Center for Renewal of Science and Culture (hereinafter "CRSC"), represents from an institutional standpoint, the IDM's goals and objectives, much as writings from the Institute for Creation Research did for the earlier creation-science movement, as discussed in McLean. (11:26–28 (Forrest)); McLean, 529 F. Supp. at 1255. The Wedge Document states in its "Five Year Strategic Plan Summary" that the IDM's goal is to replace science as currently practiced with "theistic and Christian science." (P-140 at 6).
Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District - Wikisource, the free online library
Now I'll grant that there could be a case made for legitimate scientific inquiry into ID, but up until now (or at least up until Dover), ID was primarily a political/religious movement with the purpose to challenge science (e.g. evolution) that directly contradicted certain people's religious views (e.g. creationism).

All of this was laid bare in the Dover trial. ID proponents need to be well aware of the history of the modern ID movement.

The judge's objection though was not in the interpretation of the evidence itself; but that it was contextually religiously Christian.

So in that regard the judge is correct. Inherent in teaching ID, eventually one is confronted with which deity is "the Creator"; And here is where teaching ID in a secular educational institution becomes a matter of freedom of religion / separation of church and state.

Yet at the same time, there's no injunction against the use of a public building for community purposes, in which an ID lecture can be presented. One CR presentation I attended was actually held in a public school on a Saturday afternoon.

"Separation of church and state" never meant to take any and all religiously contextualized discussion out of the public area. It simply meant that the government could not establish a "state church" / (or state religion as it would be interpreted today)

And all that is valid. The interpretation of "freedom of speech" does say that student lead / student initiated discussion of religious subjects is permissible in public schools (particularly where attendance is mandatory). And that staff are allowed to have individual religious discussions with students who seek that teacher for that purpose.

Schools get into sticky wickets though with religious freedom as it applies to extra curricular activities / clubs or elective courses available. This is not as big of an issue with public universities. But schools tend to exclude all activities related to religious beliefs in favor of "fairness to all" means "none are allowed". And technically, that's valid too.

Public schools can actually "mandate" educational curriculum that teaches comparative religion, religion as it applies to society as part of a history or social studies class, religious books as literature etc. But they can not present a belief system as "religious instruction".

Now that all being said; public schools that are in areas that predominate populations of specific religions run into this conflict frequently and since school boards being elected by the populous of the local community - this is why you have Muslim dress codes in public high schools in Minnesota and Torah classes in public schools in NYC. (Both of which still get governmental funding.)

Now where do you draw the line between constitutional right and what is actually "religious instruction" and still maintain your public school status as opposed to crossing over into the sector of private education?

In the US there is a broad variety of educational options available. There's public school, private school and homeschool. We are the only nation in the world that has that extent of flexibility. In most of the rest of the world education is far more stringently regulated than it is here. In half of Europe, home schooling isn't even legal.

So yes, in general terms - I do agree with the system as it is. And ID will always be relegated to the realm of private / independent instruction. Yet, just because that's the case; does not negate a concepts validity as truth.

Truth, regardless of what it is in relation to - is always relegated to the margins. Want further evidence; start investigating subjects like the German side of WWII, the Palestinian / Arab side of the Middle-Eastern conflict, the "official narrative" of 9/11 (does it even match the footage you are watching of the event)?

In the current age of the information superhighway - the Internet has been the leveler of many things!
 
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