Intellectual integrity

[Neogaia777]

What verse tells us to take the literal interpretation in the bible?

Take whatever interpretation seems plausible for you to believe in.

And I will do the same.

God Bless.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

This is really going anywhere, so I'll just wait and see if you want to reply to anything else new I said, and maybe reply back to you "maybe" then, ok.

And I'll wait for an apology.

Also, if you look back you'll see that I haven't 'flat out rejected' anything. Your statements about proof & possibility are, at best, incoherent, and the 'burden of proof' only depends on a claim (not just a claim of proof).

I'm one of the most objective people you will ever meet, because my ego is not involved.

<chuckle> "The ego is the part of you that is engaged in self-justification." [Psychology Today]

That's almost as good as Trump's take on humility, "I do have much more humility than people would think".

 

[public hermit]

Oh, for sure, there's a lot of serious problems
with research!
One could write a treatise on it.

My interest in bringing it up here is a result of
observing how many of our religious friends
prove to have no concern for or even concept
of intellectual honesty.
Routinely denounce all of science as being
like themselves.
Go further and glorify such aberrant thinking
as essential to Faith.

In research it is at least recognized that integrity
is a real and important thing, and often enough
quite severe penalties result from misconduct.

Oh, well, yeah that. As a person of a particular faith, I have to recognize that what I believe is not believed by others and that I could be wrong. The Christian scriptures, for instance, have problems, and I have no issue admitting them. The fundamentalist who vehemently insists on a truth claim (e.g. YEC) despite all contrary evidence and good reason is not being intellectually honest, for sure. It seems they should at least admit that their belief is outside the evidence and it is not anywhere near certain, it's just their belief.

Going with the same example, I wonder if it would make a difference if the YEC admitted their belief was way outside and also didn't disparage science. If the adherent of YEC was very humble about their belief, recognizing it for what it is- a belief without evidence, would that be a form of intellectual integrity? I ask because I'm not certain we can simply choose what we believe. Changing one's deeply held beliefs is a process and not something one can do on a whim. Maybe the best some can do, in terms of intellectual honesty, is admit the precarious nature of their belief.

 

[Neogaia777]

And I'll wait for an apology.

I'm not apologizing.

You are clearly lying.

Now if I truly thought you were "hoping for better" I might apologize, but I know you were not, and still are not, and so, therefore, I'm not apologizing.

God Bless.

 

[Astrid]

Isn't it hell enough not know why even why one lives?

I mean you have enumerated a fairly typical list of complaints against Jesus Christ or at least a cultural "anity" as a religious or social matter.

Your heart beats, your lungs breath, your physical systems probably all work well enough to keep you alive from day to day.
Your mind imagines, remembers, figures out. Your will chooses and your emotions like or dislike things and people.
But do you know why you are here in the universe?

You see the Person of the resurrected Jesus Christ is the only thing which planted in my heart ultimate meaning to everything.
I may have seen even more reasons to be discouraged by Christianity than you.
But I found out the man is alive and available and His love is indestructible, prevailing, and eternal.

If I could possibly drop my personal relationship with Jesus and pick up instead your philosophy, what would it
do for me in terms of enlightening me as to why I am living in this big universe?

What will your atheism furnish me with as to the reason I live or ANYTHING is for that matter?

It isnt " hell" to notice that there exist life's persistent
questions for those entertained by them.
Religions exist largely to comfort those so afflicted,
with " answers" someone made up- as you no doubt
recognize in all religions but the one you chose.

Speaking making things up- why do you feel free
to so falsely state that I have " enumerated complaints
against jesus"?

I'm not " discouraged by christianity".

Perhaps you'd do well to avoid all references to
to any who what and why you imagine me to be.

Complaints to against Christianity? Wrong again.

You choose to feel how you choose to feel.
That's none of my concern.

What is?
When people do such as taking the name of their God in vain and claim to march under "His" banner to commit
base and ignoble acts- from trying to force yec into
American schools, or force their wway into my country-
then i have complaints.

As for your question at the end- I'm Chinese.
Our culture is profoundly different- and older- than yours.

Do I, does Chinese culture have amything for you?
That's up to you. And whether you've the capacity
to comprehend.

 

[Neogaia777]

Also, if you look back you'll see that I haven't 'flat out rejected' anything.

You flat out rejected a real possibility.

Your statements about proof

I never said I have proof of anything.

& possibility are, at best, incoherent,

My posts have been very, very clear.

and the 'burden of proof' only depends on a claim (not just a claim of proof).

I never said I had proof, or evidence, and I only claimed a possible possibility.

Which does not need to be proven, etc.

<chuckle> "The ego is the part of you that is engaged in self-justification." [Psychology Today]

My relpying to you right now is not about my ego, or justifying myself, but believe whatever you like, or whatever you want to believe.

I'm just upset because I thought you might have been really genuinely truly interested in what I had to say when you very first asked me, etc.

Clearly, you are not, and were not, etc.

That's almost as good as Trump's take on humility, "I do have much more humility than people would think."

I'm not a fan of Donald Trump, and am nothing like him.

 

[Astrid]

Oh, well, yeah that. As a person of a particular faith, I have to recognize that what I believe is not believed by others and that I could be wrong. The Christian scriptures, for instance, have problems, and I have no issue admitting them. The fundamentalist who vehemently insists on a truth claim (e.g. YEC) despite all contrary evidence and good reason is not being intellectually honest, for sure. It seems they should at least admit that their belief is outside the evidence and it is not anywhere near certain, it's just their belief.

Going with the same example, I wonder if it would make a difference if the YEC admitted their belief was way outside and also didn't disparage science. If the adherent of YEC was very humble about their belief, recognizing it for what it is- a belief without evidence, would that be a form of intellectual integrity? I ask because I'm not certain we can simply choose what we believe. Changing one's deeply held beliefs is a process and not something one can do on a whim. Maybe the best some can do, in terms of intellectual honesty, is admit the precarious nature of their belief.

Humility. Yes, an admirable trait, a core
value in Christianity.

The thing is that the yecs believe that
God personally granted them the power of
infallible bible- reading.

It's quite a deal. Read a line, God tells
them it means whatever they choose and
Voila, Presto! They know more than any
resesrcher on earth. Easy- peeze!

And humble? let me tell you!

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Isn't it hell enough not know why even why one lives?

No, why should it be? Why do you need a reason? We're alive, so let's get on with it ;-)

What will your atheism furnish me with as to the reason I live or ANYTHING is for that matter?

There is a causal explanation (big bang theory, evolution, etc), but that ultimately leads back to why there is something (including God) rather than nothing - which is a 'mu' (meaningless or unanswerable) question.

For many atheists, the understanding that they have a limited lifetime gives life meaning, and that their existence is finite can be a comfort. IOW, make the most of the time you have, and if things don't work out for you it doesn't matter in the long run.

 

[Astrid]

No, why should it be? Why do you need a reason? We're alive, so let's get on with it ;-)


There is a causal explanation (big bang theory, evolution, etc), but that ultimately leads back to why there is something (including God) rather than nothing - which is a 'mu' (meaningless or unanswerable) question.

For many atheists, the understanding that they have a limited lifetime gives life meaning, and that their existence is finite can be a comfort. IOW, make the most of the time you have, and if things don't work out for you it doesn't matter in the long run.

Very few find meaning to their lives in isolation from
others.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

You flat out rejected a real possibility.

What possibility?

I never said I have proof of anything.

You made a claim, therefore the burden of proof lies with you. It doesn't mean you have to have proof or claim to have proof, just that If proof is required, the burden is on you to provide it. It also means that no one else has any responsibility to prove or disprove your claim. So asking someone to disprove your claim is a fallacy known as 'shifting the burden of proof'.

My posts have been very, very clear.

I never said I had proof, or evidence, and I only claimed a possible possibility.

Which does not need to be proven, etc.

My relpying to you right now is not about my ego, or justifying myself, but believe whatever you like, or whatever you want to believe.

That all looks like justification to me, but I'll leave it to the reader to decide...

 

[public hermit]

Humility. Yes, an admirable trait, a core
value in Christianity.

The thing is that the yecs believe that
God personally granted them the power of
infallible bible- reading.

It's quite a deal. Read a line, God tells
them it meansvwhatever they choose and
Voila, Presto! They know more than any
resesrcher on earth. Easy- peeze!

And humble? let me tell you!

I know, and I agree. As a Christian it really bothers me. I don't consider treating the scriptures as an infallible document a good thing to do. To the contrary, it can verge on idolatry. It's to treat the documents as if they are divine, substantially divine. That's a problem, from my point of view.

Is the Bible also God? Is everything I read not only historically accurate, and theologically precise, but also a moral recommendation to me? None of that can be true. The Bible is not God, which should be obvious from a Christian point of view. And, not only are there historical inaccuracies in the scriptures, but the scriptures offer competing moral demands. For example, should it be eye for an eye or should I turn the other cheek? Those are not at all the same thing.

Jesus once said to the religious leaders of his day: You search the scriptures because you think you will find in them eternal life, and yet you fail to come to me. Now that's a wild claim he is making, for sure, but it makes clear that the scriptures were not intended to be read as if they are on par w/him, which also should be obvious to Christians, imo. They are supposed to be a witness to the thing, not the thing itself. So it's a fundamental error from my point of view.

I think there's a good in-house critique of that point of view. But it's just a flawed point of view, in general. As you say, it gives absolute freedom to believe whatever, and then claim it's justified. And it's scary because it's not just used to justify truth claims but it's used to justify actions, as well. The history of Christianity is replete with instances of horrendous acts being justified because " the Bible says so." I think everyone, Christian and otherwise, should vocally reject fundamentalist readings at every turn, and as kindly as possible.

 

[oikonomia]

It isnt " hell" to notice that there exist life's persistent
questions for those entertained by them.
Religions exist largely to comfort those so afflicted,
with " answers" someone made up- as you no doubt
recognize in all religions but the one you chose.

I do not believe that a person like Jesus Christ would be made up by human imagination even if
it was possible for us to do so.

Any conspiracy theory that the Jesus of the New Testament was the product of imagination doesn't seem to work.
"Religious people concocted Jesus Christ" fails.
"Males imagined up Jesus" fails.
"Capitalists invented Jesus Christ" doesn't add up any more than Socialists, Communists, or even Jews are responsible for the
invention of Christ.

You have said in essense "But religions are concocted for the afflicted."
That tells us nothing about WHY there are the afflicted in the first place.
And technology and science are just as much inventions to ease the plight of the afflicted.
You apparently don't dismiss the scientific enterprise because it too exists ultimately to releave the afflicted.
Invention after invention is for what purpose? Their purpose is to make man's life better based on knowledge of the way the universe works.

The complaint that religious is only there to comfort the afflicted seems a selective objection.
I'll be looking for what your atheism provides that I have not in God.

Speaking making things up- why do you feel free
to so falsely state that I have " enumerated complaints
against jesus"?

I say this because you mentioned your several problems with Christianity.
I took off the "anity" and considered these objections as essentially some of your reasons you would not trust in a Person - Christ.

If you would trust in a Person - Christ inspite of Christianity please let me know.
This is the route I have taken.

I'm not " discouraged by christianity".

C'mon. Sure you are. Read your own post.
You were not impressed with this or that.
You could get just as much ethics and moraity teaching without the Christian faith.
Wasn't that your point?

Perhaps you'd do well to avoid all references to
to any who what and why you imagine me to be.

Vica versa.
I'll make that effort. And you in turn attempt to not quickly generalize about me.
Deal?

For example: For me the most influential Christian thinkers have come from Mainland China.
You see I think the West was so spoiled by traditional religion that God had to go to a virgin area of the world
in terms of fresh light and vitality for the Christain faith.

I owe too much of my spiritual growth to Chinese Christians like Watchman Nee.
He spent the last 20 years of his life in a Communist prison on the mainland for his work as a Christian teacher / preacher.

Complaints to against Christianity? Wrong again.

You choose to feel how you choose to feel.
That's none of my concern.

Argument by apathy?
Okay. You have NO complaints against Christianity. Fine. I got it. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

How do feel about the Son of God's victory over death and the grave?
Do you believe One could be so prevailing that even death could not hold Him?

If Jesus is not living my faith in God is 100% useless practically. For tomorrow we die and rot.
And where in your atheist system is there ultimate justice and the balancing of the moral scales of the universe?
In the teaching of Christ the last judgment will be the last judgment.

In your system will all evil doers simply melt peacefully into the dust?
With my faith Christ demostrated that not only Himself He brought back from death but
all will be to face final judgment.

Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all in the tombs will hear His voice
And will come forth: those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have practiced evil, to the resurrection of judgment. I can do nothing from Myself; as I hear, I judge, and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will but the will of Him who sent Me. ( John 5:28-30)

Humor me. You know a Christian is going to discuss this with some reference to what the Bible says.

Where in your atheism is ultimate accountability to an ultimate Governor whose knowledge of all the circumstancial facts of our
life is infallible?

Where is final justice or redemption before a perfect standard of truth.
The Bible tells me that "the judgment of God is according to truth". (Romans 2:2)

What is?
When people do such as taking the name of their God in vain and claim to march under "His" banner to commit
base and ignoble acts- from trying to force yec into
American schools, or force their wway into my country-
then i have complaints.

This is completely understandable.
No one is getting away with anything.

Judgment begins with those who are supposed to have known better.
For it is time for the judgment to begin from the house of God; and if first from us, what will be the end of those who disobey the gospel of God? (1 Pet. 4:17)

As for your question at the end- I'm Chinese.
Our culture is profoundly different- and older- than yours.

I wish I had a bit more time to exchange posts. But it will have to wait.
I just repeat, the most influential Christians on my spiritual well-being and growth were born in mainland China.

I'll have to take in your other points latter.
Thanks for reading.

 

[Astrid]

What possibility?


You made a claim, therefore the burden of proof lies with you. It doesn't mean you have to have proof or claim to have proof, just that If proof is required, the burden is on you to provide it. It also means that no one else has any responsibility to prove or disprove your claim. So asking someone to disprove your claim is a fallacy known as 'shifting the burden of proof'.


That all looks like justification to me, but I'll leave it to the reader to decide...

If not proof as such maybe at least like maybe at
least ONE datum point?

 

[Astrid]

I do not believe that a person like Jesus Christ would be made up by human imagination even if
it was possible for us to do so.

Any conspiracy theory that the Jesus of the New Testament was the product of imagination doesn't seem to work.
"Religious people concocted Jesus Christ" fails.
"Males imagined up Jesus" fails.
"Capitalists invented Jesus Christ" doesn't add up any more than Socialists, Communists, or even Jews are responsible for the
invention of Christ.

You have said in essense "But religions are concocted for the afflicted."
That tells us nothing about WHY there are the afflicted in the first place.
And technology and science are just as much inventions to ease the plight of the afflicted.
You apparently don't dismiss the scientific enterprise because it too exists ultimately to releave the afflicted.
Invention after invention is for what purpose? Their purpose is to make man's life better based on knowledge of the way the universe works.

The complaint that religious is only there to comfort the afflicted seems a selective objection.
I'll be looking for what your atheism provides that I have not in God.



I say this because you mentioned your several problems with Christianity.
I took off the "anity" and considered these objections as essentially some of your reasons you would not trust in a Person - Christ.

If you would trust in a Person - Christ inspite of Christianity please let me know.
This is the route I have taken.


C'mon. Sure you are. Read your own post.
You were not impressed with this or that.
You could get just as much ethics and moraity teaching without the Christian faith.
Wasn't that your point?

Vica versa.
I'll make that effort. And you in turn attempt to not quickly generalize about me.
Deal?

For example: For me the most influential Christian thinkers have come from Mainland China.
You see I think the West was so spoiled by traditional religion that God had to go to a virgin area of the world
in terms of fresh light and vitality for the Christain faith.

I owe too much of my spiritual growth to Chinese Christians like Watchman Nee.
He spent the last 20 years of his life in a Communist prison on the mainland for his work as a Christian teacher / preacher.

Argument by apathy?
Okay. You have NO complaints against Christianity. Fine. I got it. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

How do feel about the Son of God's victory over death and the grave?
Do you believe One could be so prevailing that even death could not hold Him?

If Jesus is not living my faith in God is 100% useless practically. For tomorrow we die and rot.
And where in your atheist system is there ultimate justice and the balancing of the moral scales of the universe?
In the teaching of Christ the last judgment will be the last judgment.

In your system will all evil doers simply melt peacefully into the dust?
With my faith Christ demostrated that not only Himself He brought back from death but
all will be to face final judgment.

Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all in the tombs will hear His voice
And will come forth: those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have practiced evil, to the resurrection of judgment. I can do nothing from Myself; as I hear, I judge, and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will but the will of Him who sent Me. ( John 5:28-30)

Humor me. You know a Christian is going to discuss this with some reference to what the Bible says.

Where in your atheism is ultimate accountability to an ultimate Governor whose knowledge of all the circumstancial facts of our
life is infallible?

Where is final justice or redemption before a perfect standard of truth.
The Bible tells me that "the judgment of God is according to truth". (Romans 2:2)


This is completely understandable.
No one is getting away with anything.

Judgment begins with those who are supposed to have known better.
For it is time for the judgment to begin from the house of God; and if first from us, what will be the end of those who disobey the gospel of God? (1 Pet. 4:17)

I wish I had a bit more time to exchange posts. But it will have to wait.
I just repeat, the most influential Christians on my spiritual well-being and growth were born in mainland China.

I'll have to take in your other points latter.
Thanks for reading.

All the other religious figures are made up but not the
one you chose?

As for afflictions that's the human condition.
Even germs get sick. Animals get lonely or injured.

Religions in their thousands are made up to
" explain" all that's mysterious. Or is 9,999 that are made up and one ( yours) is real?

You want to hear what's in atheism?
For what you want, nothing.
It's kind of like not believing in Loch Ness monster. Its just reality.
Reality bites and stings.

if reality has nothing gor you, ok,that's you.


I don't go for crutches. Thats me.

I did NOT say "only to comfort:"

I have NO complaints about Christianity.

This is utterly senseless if you don't try to deal with what I actually say.



Also...please? One or two things at a time?
I'm using a phone! Long posts are unmanageable.

Can you restate in fewer words a point or two ,
starting where my reply to you leaves off?

 

[FreeinChrist]

ADVISOR HAT


This thread became snarky, has some blatant flaming, and is becoming a general Chriatian apologetics discussion.

It is closed. ​