Instrumental Music

[Ben_Hur]

I have a friend with a background in the Church of Christ denomination that believes there should be no instrumentatal music in the Church. I've read a few websites form The CofC and their explanation of why they believe Christ does not want us to worship with instrumental music. Their arguments defy all logic and are based mainly on the fact that the NT is silent on the issue (which to me says you don't NEED instruments, since it is unlikely you can afford them, but not that they are bad).

Links refuting the CofC on this issue are few that I can find. Anyone have such links available? Here is the only link I've found:

http://faith.ethrex.com/church_of_christ.html


Here is an interesting quote from that site:

The word 'sing' commonly used in the New Testament is the Greek word 'yavllw', strong's number 5567. The word clearly means to sing to an instrument:

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5567

Definition:

1. to pluck off, pull out
2. to cause to vibrate by touching, to twang

1. 1. to touch or strike the chord, to twang the strings of a musical instrument so that they gently vibrate
   2. to play on a stringed instrument, to play, the harp, etc.
   3. to sing to the music of the harp

3. in the NT to sing a hymn, to celebrate the praises of God in song

 

[onetruechurch]

the reason that you can't find anything is b/c instrumental music in worship is wrong. the bible says sing. if I told you to sing, why would you pull out an instrument? do you watch American Idol? what would Simon do if someone pulled out a trumpet instead of singing? he would have a heart attack. so we should sing. you can't just do what you want in worship- what would be the purpose for a guide book ( the BIble)? by the way- look at history- the pope was the first to introduce an instrument in worship- the NT never does.

 

[Oblio]

Having experienced/participated A Cappella worship in the Orthodox Church for several years, I can't imagine returning to worship with accompianment. I am not sure that instruments are wrong per say, it just hasn't (for the most part) been done in Orthodoxy. Why add to the human voice created by God Himself ?

 

[Ben_Hur]

I figured I would get such responses from CofC'ers. But you are not answering my question. I know your reasonings and disagree with them. They are illogical.

Here are some of my own notes on this study:

Church of Christ says disallows instruments because there is no example of the use of musical instruments in church worship in the NT. They then assume that this means Christ does not authorize its use.



This is logically nonsense. By this logic, then there are many things Christ “does not authorize” because it is not mentioned in the New Testament. For instance, you then cannot worship while riding a horse. Here is a list of things not mentioned within the NT in the context of worship.

• Horse riding.
• Singing with a bad voice.
• Worshiping outside.
• Worshiping on a boat in the water.
• Worshiping while wearing pants.
• Worshiping while wearing tennis shoes.
• Worshiping on a train.
• Worshiping in a tree

(LOL, sounds like Green Eggs and Ham....)

Yet, we are called to sing praises, pray and worship constantly..... This greatly limits your mobility if things not mentioned in the NT are taken to be not permitted areas of worship.

Here is the principle of this logical fallacy.



If A then B, it does not necessarily follow that B then A.



Example:



If all cows sneeze, it does NOT follow that all who sneeze are cows.



If all things related to worship in the NT are examples of permitted worship practice, it does NOT follow that all things NOT in the NT are unauthorized worship practice.

It also does not follow that since David played an instrument and if NT writers found that to now be a bad thing, that they wouldn’t have mentioned this fact in the NT writings.



The argument that if you use OT as an example of what is permitted in NT, then you must accept all OT law practices as necessary. This is also illogical. Musical instruments are not mentioned in OT law. It is simply a morsel of information one gleans from reading about David.



Hanging the argument on historical practice is also false. By that logic, one must refrain from reading the Bible, because in History, reading of the Bible was forbidden by the church for quite a number of years. You will also need to burn incense, eliminate protestant churches and practices, have church only in homes....where does it end?



Also, consider that musical instrument were not abundant or inexpensive during NT times. It is not conceivable that people would carry instruments everywhere they went or that a musician would be available. I think the message is more that you should not wait for a musician to be available before you worship. Sing praises anyway, wherever you are.

Now, CofC does permit tuning forks. What if there are tone-deaf members in the congregation and need a tuning fork for each note played?...hmmm...that would be instrumental music. I guess the tone-deaf are excluded from proper worship in the CofC (and some Baptist churches).

If instruments are not permitted, why does the Lord still bless churches and members that use them?

Disallowing instruments is extremely legalistic and thereby is a sign of a lack of faith in the Lord, IMHO.

What is worship?

Rom 12:1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.

1Co 14:25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you. [Do CofC'ers fall on their face underthese conditions?If we are following the "rules" then they must]

Greek: "Worship": Proskooneho (phenetic) - to fawn, to crouch to, that is to prostrate one's self in homage. [So do the CofC's do this? Or do they stand? Or sit?]

Greek: "Sing": psallo (phenetic) - to twang a string or play on a stringed instrument. [how does CofC reconcile the greek definition of the word "sing" in the NT - which by the way, is only used 4 times in the NT; one of which is a direct quote from the OT. Heb 2:12 saying, "I WILL PROCLAIM YOUR NAME TO MY BRETHREN, IN THE MIDST OF THE CONGREGATION I WILL SING YOUR PRAISE."]

Interestingly, the OT quote above is the only usage of the word "sing" that doesn't include reference the use of instruments...... The word is "ekklayseeah" (pheonetic spelling).

A quick search in the OT revealed that at least 2 additional words for sing are used which vary between instrument and non-instrument singing.

There it is. I don't see the "thou art forbidden to use instruments" anywhere in the Bible, real or implied.

 

[onetruechurch]

I don't see how I am being illogical by doing only what the bible says. When we are gathered together on the Lord's Day we are to sing, pray, listen to the word be taught, have the lord's supper, and pray. Everytime you gather together with the lord's church you should do all of these things to be pleasing to God. except for the lords supper- that is only on Sunday. Anyway- when you have the Lords supper what to you have? is it Pizza and coke? The Bible doesn't say not to? of course you don't. The bible says fruit of the vine and unleavened bread. I don't know of anyone who uses pizza and coke, but you will use an instrument when the bible says SING. I know that you were wanting someone to refute the teaching of the lord's church, but instrumental music is something that i really like to discuss. and I clearly understand biblical teachings on this subject. Let me put it this way- on judgement day, when you are judged by the words of the bible (John 12) then how are you going to look at God and say that you worshipped with instruments b/c you wanted too? The true Lord's church does not use music, and worship according to the Bible only. we are not WRONG to not use instruments, RIGHT? I think everyone will agree with that. but, since the bible says SING, maybe, just maybe you would be wrong TO use them. better to be safe than sorry huh? NOW THAT IS LOGIC!!!!

 

[onetruechurch]

 

[onetruechurch]

BEN- HUR,
we should not generalize where God has specified. God specified to Noah gopher wood- not just wood. Noah did as he was told. he didn't use pine or oak. one of my favorite examples of sing vs instruments is the story of Uzzah and the ark of the covenant. so you remember what happened- noone was to touch the thing at all. the oxen stumbled and the ark tipped. Uzzah reached out to keep it from falling and he was struck dead. on the spot. He was only aiding or helping right? but god specified that those who touched would die. Musical instruments are an aid you say in worship- but god said SING. in essence you are going against God's word, although you have all the right intentions, as uzzah did also.

 

[Ben_Hur]

I don't see how I am being illogical by doing only what the bible says.

Because the bible DOESN'T say. To say that instruments are foribidden is ADDING to the scripture. Dangerous. Especially in light of the greek definitions of "SING" that I listed above. One actually implies the use of instruments and is used in the NT.

The bible says fruit of the vine and unleavened bread.

There you go. Now you are on the right track. The Bible SAYS this. Why not apply this to music as well and concentrate on what the Bible says, not what it DOESN'T say?

I know that you were wanting someone to refute the teaching of the lord's church, but instrumental music is something that i really like to discuss. and I clearly understand biblical teachings on this subject.

I certainly hope you are not trying to imply that if my church uses instruments that it is not the Lord's church.

And if you clearly understand the teachings on this subject, then give me something to refute my study above. Verses, translations, interpretations, etc.

Let me put it this way- on judgement day, when you are judged by the words of the bible (John 12) then how are you going to look at God and say that you worshipped with instruments b/c you wanted too? The true Lord's church does not use music, and worship according to the Bible only. we are not WRONG to not use instruments, RIGHT? I think everyone will agree with that. but, since the bible says SING, maybe, just maybe you would be wrong TO use them. better to be safe than sorry huh? NOW THAT IS LOGIC!!!!

You can use accopella all you want. I can use instruments with my singing all I want. That is the point I'm making and wanted further studies on - but mine is pretty good anyway if I do say so myself.

"Better safe than sorry?" Do we believe in the same Jesus here? Are you actually implying that the use of instruments with singing is a salvation issue? Jesus NEVER said not to use instruments. There is no commandment of salvation in this issue. Salvation is based on faith in Jesus as the Son of God, God in the flesh. Jesus only gave two commandments on which all others hang, none of which even mention singing. What exactly are you saying here?

Which church is this that is the "True Lord's Church" that doesn't use instruments as you say? Are you actually judging the salvation of those that use instruments along with singing?

 

[Ben_Hur]

BEN- HUR,
we should not generalize where God has specified. God specified to Noah gopher wood- not just wood. Noah did as he was told. he didn't use pine or oak. one of my favorite examples of sing vs instruments is the story of Uzzah and the ark of the covenant. so you remember what happened- noone was to touch the thing at all. the oxen stumbled and the ark tipped. Uzzah reached out to keep it from falling and he was struck dead. on the spot. He was only aiding or helping right? but god specified that those who touched would die. Musical instruments are an aid you say in worship- but god said SING. in essence you are going against God's word, although you have all the right intentions, as uzzah did also.

Ok, I've already covered the greek words for "sing." Now let's talk about your OT analogy. Proponents of "no-instruments" usually say that we can't use OT teachings as an example of justification for the use of instruments. Here, you are using OT teachings as a justification for NO use of instruments. Which is it? Can we use OT teachings on this issue or not? If we can, please explain David's use of instruments with the Psalms. Did he fail in worshipping the Lord?

 

[onetruechurch]

Because the bible DOESN'T say. To say that instruments are foribidden is ADDING to the scripture. Dangerous. Especially in light of the greek definitions of "SING" that I listed above. One actually implies the use of instruments and is used in the NT.

There you go. Now you are on the right track. The Bible SAYS this. Why not apply this to music as well and concentrate on what the Bible says, not what it DOESN'T say?


I certainly hope you are not trying to imply that if my church uses instruments that it is not the Lord's church.

And if you clearly understand the teachings on this subject, then give me something to refute my study above. Verses, translations, interpretations, etc.


You can use accopella all you want. I can use instruments with my singing all I want. That is the point I'm making and wanted further studies on - but mine is pretty good anyway if I do say so myself.

"Better safe than sorry?" Do we believe in the same Jesus here? Are you actually implying that the use of instruments with singing is a salvation issue? Jesus NEVER said not to use instruments. There is no commandment of salvation in this issue. Salvation is based on faith in Jesus as the Son of God, God in the flesh. Jesus only gave two commandments on which all others hang, none of which even mention singing. What exactly are you saying here?

Which church is this that is the "True Lord's Church" that doesn't use instruments as you say? Are you actually judging the salvation of those that use instruments along with singing?

I don't understand why you think using unleavened bread and fruit of the vine is a specific command and why singing isn't. there is never an example of christians using instruments in worship.just read your Bible. You can't tell me that someone on a deserted island that has a bible and does not have a greek dictionary would come up with the need to use instruments in worship. and that is the way it should be. everything that you do is dependent on your salvation. if you are judged by the book, then won't you do what it says?

 

[onetruechurch]

Ok, I've already covered the greek words for "sing." Now let's talk about your OT analogy. Proponents of "no-instruments" usually say that we can't use OT teachings as an example of justification for the use of instruments. Here, you are using OT teachings as a justification for NO use of instruments. Which is it? Can we use OT teachings on this issue or not? If we can, please explain David's use of instruments with the Psalms. Did he fail in worshipping the Lord?

Because we are to LEARN from the OT - not go by it! (hebrews) big difference. we can learn a lot from the things that happened- but that doesn't mean I am going to offer a sacrifice. now to turn the tables on you- you said something earlier about burning incense. Now if you are going to use instruments as David, why don't you burn incense and offer sacrifices?

 

[onetruechurch]

how can we be adding to the bible? are you not adding by using instruments since there is no authority????

 

[Ben_Hur]

I don't understand why you think using unleavened bread and fruit of the vine is a specific command and why singing isn't.

I never said singing isn't a command. I'm saying not using instruments is not a command. I hope we're clear on that now.

You can't tell me that someone on a deserted island that has a bible and does not have a greek dictionary would come up with the need to use instruments in worship.

The way I see it is that if this person brought their guitar to this desert island and broke it, they don't have to be worried because they are not commanded to use an instrument in worship - they can just sing.

everything that you do is dependent on your salvation. if you are judged by the book, then won't you do what it says?

I don't know about you, but I'm going to be judged by the works of Christ, not by my own works (what I do).

I feel sorry for the mute people in your church.

 

[Ben_Hur]

how can we be adding to the bible? are you not adding by using instruments since there is no authority????

Please refer to the greek definitions of sing...actually, you are taking away from the scriptures by eliminating/forbidding instruments...my mistake.

 

[onetruechurch]

I don't know about you, but I'm going to be judged by the works of Christ, not by my own works (what I do).

I feel sorry for the mute people in your church.

if you feel that you will not be judged by the things you do in this lifetime, then there is no use in continuing this discussion. you can do whatever you want to. just know that there is a narrow way that leads to righteousness. sounds like you are on the whatever i want to do way. let me know if I can ever help you with the TRUTH. also Aggie 03 is a big help. by the way, the deaf and mute people in the lord's church use sign language- that is still singing, if you have no voice to sing! goodbye, I will pray for you!

 

[Ben_Hur]

Well, don't confuse being judged for salvation and judged for rewards. There are two judgement seats. You may want to look that up.

 

[christian-only]

The word 'sing' commonly used in the New Testament is the Greek word 'yavllw', strong's number 5567. The word clearly means to sing to an instrument:

First, Strong's# 5567 is psallo. It is mispelled horribly in the quote above because it was copied from the wrong field over at crosswalk, that is copied from the field that REQUIRES a Greek font rather than the transliterated field. Someone who knew ANY Greek would not have made THIS mistake. Second, people who know nothing about Greek at all often come up with arguments like this by reading Strong's concordance and not understanding his format. You CANNOT combine two of the meanings together - you've got to pick one to the exclusion of the others, and the picking must be based on the context of the verse. If a stringed instrument was mentioned in the verse where this word is used, then this word would be refering to plucking those strings, but since the only instrument mentioned in the context is the heart, the strings being plucked are those of the heart.

(Eph 5:19) "Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;" OR "Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and plucking the strings of your heart to the Lord;"

 

[Ben_Hur]

First, Strong's# 5567 is psallo. It is mispelled horribly in the quote above because it was copied from the wrong field over at crosswalk, that is copied from the field that REQUIRES a Greek font rather than the transliterated field. Someone who knew ANY Greek would not have made THIS mistake. Second, people who know nothing about Greek at all often come up with arguments like this by reading Strong's concordance and not understanding his format. You CANNOT combine two of the meanings together - you've got to pick one to the exclusion of the others, and the picking must be based on the context of the verse. If a stringed instrument was mentioned in the verse where this word is used, then this word would be refering to plucking those strings, but since the only instrument mentioned in the context is the heart, the strings being plucked are those of the heart.

(Eph 5:19) "Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;" OR "Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and plucking the strings of your heart to the Lord;"

Ok, I'll give you that about the greek since I am not a greek scholar. But the logic still holds that just because it is not mentioned in the text doesn't mean it is not permitted or that there are "rules" to follow to the exclusion of instruments with singing for worship.

 

[christian-only]

Ok, I'll give you that about the greek since I am not a greek scholar. But the logic still holds that just because it is not mentioned in the text doesn't mean it is not permitted or that there are "rules" to follow to the exclusion of instruments with singing for worship.

Please think about the example of OT priesthood. (Heb 8:4) "For if Jesus were on earth, He would not be a priest..." Why not? The answer was in Heb 7:14 "For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood."

In otherwords, when Moses said "priests will come from the tribe of Levi" all other tribes were automatically excluded. He didn't have to go through the list and say "people from the tribe of Judah cannot be priests. People from the tribe of Naphtali cannot be priests..." and so forth. It is the same with New Testament worship. When the apostles said "sing and pluck the strings of your heart" that automatically excluded playing instruments so that they did not have to say "you will not play a trumpet. You will not play a harp..." and so forth.

 

[Ben_Hur]

I can "sing and pluck the strings of [my] heart" and still have instruments playing in the background, thereby not violating this percieved "rule."

This statement:

when Moses said "priests will come from the tribe of Levi" all other tribes were automatically excluded. [BECAUSE]...He didn't have to go through the list and say "people from the tribe of Judah cannot be priests. People from the tribe of Naphtali cannot be priests..." and so forth.

Isn't the same as (for example):

When we are told to sing, instruments are excluded [BECAUSE]... {nothing follows here because there is no logical exclusion}

There is no logical exclusion because voice and instruments are not always understood to be a set. However, the twelve tribes are ALWAYS considered to be a set. They were established as twelve tribes. If one is missing, then they are the TWELVE TRIBES minus one.

Voice-music can exist exclusively of instrument music and not be considered to be missing something from the "set" - as I'm sure you most certainly agree. Voice-music and string music are related in that the voice is a sort of instrument of song. Consider that we would not think of a guitar and a violin as a set necessarily. They were not established as a set. They simply belong to the family of instruments which are independent of each other (unless brought together by a song). It is the same with a voice and a guitar. Not a set.

So, if you tell someone to sing a song, you are not necessarily excluding instruments from your instruction. In order for this to be an exclusionary statment, emphasis must either be placed on the word "sing" to imply "only sing" or additional words need to be included to specify the non-use of instruments (e.g. "sing a song with no instruments").

This is simply common use of language and communication. We think in sets whether we like it or not, and God knows that.

If I say use a knife to cut your meat, although it is possible to cut the meat with just the knife and hold it with your hand, I've left the option open to use a fork to hold it. I didn't exclude the use of any other utensile (family of instruments) in conjunction with the knife. Get the meat cut with a knife is my main purpose for the command. If the person uses a fork, it doesn't stop the meat from getting cut, and may even make the job a little easier.

However, if have a multi colored set of salad bowls (tribes) and I say use the green salad bowl (tribe), I've excluded the others because for one, my specific command and two, the fact that the bowls exist in a explicite set.