Inquisition

[ScottBot]

I am only starting this thread because the topic of the Inquisition has come up on several posts that I have been involved in and I cannot find another thread dealing with this subject on the forums. If anyone has any knowledge of a thread devoted specifically to discussing the Inquisitions, please post the link.

 

[ScottBot]

Origin

The Inquisition was a permanent institution in the Catholic Church charged with the eradication of heresies. Unlike many other religions (e.g., Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, Protestant Christianity), the Catholic Church has a hierarchical structure with a central bureaucracy. After Constantine ended the persecution of the church, the local administrative structures of the Empire (the western church) were able to then focus on dealing with heresy, and those whose beliefs or practices deviated sufficiently from the orthodoxy of the councils now became the objects of efforts to bring them back into the fold.

Heresies (from Greek haeresis, sect, school of belief) were a problem for the Church from the beginning. Acts 15 recounts the convening of a council in Jerusalem to deal with the heresy of the Judaizers, who had contended with the Jerusalem faction in Asia and especially Galatia. In the subsequent centuries there were the Arians and Manicheans; in the Middle Ages there were the Cathari and Waldenses; and in the Renaissance there were the Rosicrucians. Efforts to suppress heresies were initially ad hoc. But in the Middle Ages a permanent structure came into being to combat heresies. Beginning in the 12th century, Church Councils required secular rulers to prosecute heretics.



History

Thosugh the common belief is that there was only one Inquisition, there were actually four Inquisitions, in chronological order; the Medieval Inquisition, the Spanish Inquisition, the Portuguese Inquisition and the Roman Inquisition.

Source: Wikipedia

 

[ScottBot]

The Spanish institution of the Holy Office of the Inquisition, modelled after the original French, was intended to have been a more temporally limited politico-national project to deal with the problem of the “conversos” (“New Christians”). Some of them were indeed only feigning Christianity, sometimes because they had never been taught much about it, or because they belonged to “underground” communities that were scattered around the peninsula. It was the case in pre-Counter Reformation Spain that many rural and mountainous areas of the country were only superficially Christianized anyway, and gross ignorance was the norm for clergy and people. The judaizers tended to live in the cities, though, as did the Jews generally. The “false Christians” stirred up a dissent which alarmed the upholders of civic order, when church and state in an integral society were legally and psychologically inseparable. The Inquisition just sharpened old ethnic tensions, and did not invent them. They had long existed, despite “convivencia.”

Muslims and Jews did not fall under the jurisdiction of the Inquisition because they were not baptized.

On the other hand, all properly baptized persons, being ipso facto Christians and members of the Catholic Church, came under the jurisdiction of the Inquisition. Foreign heretics, therefore, appeared from time to time in autos held in Spain. The burning of Protestants at Seville in the mid-1500s shows a gradual increase in the number of foreigners seized, a natural phenomenon in an international seaport.

The partly hidden issue was in effect racial, not doctrinal at all, because the Old Christian elite sometimes felt outdone by the New Christian elite. This whole topic was called limpieza de sangre (purity of blood). The notion of honor (more akin to what we might call “pride”) was also a cultural one, and honor went along with the lineage of being an Old Christian. Racialism grew, and Old Christians developed more and more anxiety about their own race. “Anti-semitism obviously existed, but the discriminatory statutes of limpieza did not begin to gather force until after the statute of Toledo in 1547.” It became a question of national security. The dark side of this racialism only served to weaken Spain, and by the seventeenth century considerable opposition had grown to the cult of limpieza. By the end of the fifteenth century, however, there were actually “new conversos” and “old conversos,” too, who further complicated this issue in Spanish society. Conversos were well-placed in Rome to lobby the papacy in their favor, and the practice on occasion worked out well for them. Popes regularly were in conflict with Spanish monarchs over these and other issues.

What did Spaniards themselves think of the Inquisition? There can be no doubt that the people as a whole gave their ready support to its existence. The tribunal was, after all, not a despotic body imposed on them tyrannically, but a logical expression of the social prejudices prevalent in their midst. It was created to deal with a problem of heresy, and as long as the problem was deemed to exist people seemed to accept it. The Inquisition was probably no more loved or hated than the police are in our time: in a society where there was no other general policing body, people took their grievances to it and exploited it to pay off personal scores. By the same token, it was on the receiving end of frequent hostility and resentment; but at every moment the inquisitors were convinced that the people were with them, and with good reason.

The Inquisition was not the imposition of a sinister tyranny on an unwilling people. It was an institution brought into being by a particular socio-religious situation, impelled and inspired by a decisively Old Christian ideology, and controlled by men whose outlook reflected the mentality of the mass of Spaniards. The dissenters were a few intellectuals, and others whose blood alone was sufficient to put them outside the pale of the new society being erected on a basis of triumphant and militant conservatism.

Judicially, the courts of the Inquisition were no worse and no better than the secular courts of the day. Faults existing in the procedure of the Holy Office would be no less evident in the royal courts where reforms were instituted by the famous Cortes of Toledo in 1480. The distinguishing feature of the Inquisition — its absolute secrecy — was the one which made it more open to abuses than any public tribunal. This secrecy was not, it seems, originally a part of the inquisitorial framework, and early records refer to public trials and a public prison rather than a secret one. But by the beginning of the sixteenth century secrecy became the general rule and was enforced in all the business of the tribunal. Even the various Instructions of the Inquisition, although set down in print, were for restricted circulation only and not for the public eye. What this necessarily involved was general public ignorance of the methods and procedure of the Inquisition — an ignorance which in its earlier period helped the tribunal by creating reverential fear in the minds of evildoers, but which in its later period led to the rise of fear and hatred based on a highly imaginative idea of how the tribunal worked. The Inquisition was therefore largely to blame for the unfounded slanders cast upon it in the eighteenth century or before. The natural outcome of this enforced ignorance is shown by the debates of the Cortes of Cadiz in 1813, on the projected decree to abolish the Inquisition. If the defenders of the tribunal relied on the argument of a mystical and mythical unity given to Spain by the Inquisition, its detractors relied almost completely on legendary misapprehensions about the entire structure and function of the institution.

 

[ScottBot]

The construction of The Inquisition, begins with the need of the Protestant Reformers to fill in the gap of Church history from the time of the early martyrs in the Roman empire up to their own time in the sixteenth century. What had happened during all those intervening centuries when the Roman Church held sway? Luther and others posited a “hidden church” that was indeed a continuity from the ancient Christians, especially the martyrs, through those persecuted by the medieval inquisitions, and up to the Protestant martyrs of his own day. The Inquisition was the instrument of their martyrdom. Later, the historian Flaccius Illyricus developed this furtherrotestant Church history and martyrology were first fully developed in the work of Matthias Flaccius Illyricus (1520-1575), the greatest Protestant historical scholar in the sixteenth century. In 1556 Flaccius published his Catalogue of Witness to the Truth, in which the “hidden” Church of Luther and the early Calvin took on visibility and specificity, turning the Catholic attack on its head by claiming medieval heretics, not as “heretics of old,” but precisely as continuing witnesses to the apostolicity and authenticity of the hidden church from the fourth century to the sixteenth.

A new Protestant vision of Church history had emerged and became codified. The Cathars/Albigensians, Waldensians, Hussites, and others were reinterpreted in the light of the theory of the “hidden” church of the pure Word. And it was The Inquisition which persecuted the “hidden” church in every age, even, as noted above, potentially in our own. Definite elements went into the construction of The Black Legend. The hatred of the pope, the anti-cult of St. Dominic, the Spanish king, and the inquisitorial tribunals all coalesced into a martyrological whole.

For both Catholics and Protestants the Revolt of the Netherlands in the sixteenth century provided a useful political rallying point for anti-Spanish feeling translated into the anti-Inquisitorial symbol. The Low Countries could see in the foreign emperor the source of their deprivation of liberty, and the literary supports especially in this region of much publication and traditionally free presses helped immensely.

Finally, only one more document need be mentioned, and, according to Peters, it synthesized forty years of anti-Inquisition propaganda. It is the Apologie published by William of Orange. It completes the “portrait” of Montanus, and lays stress upon the Spanish Inquisition as the enemy of all political liberty, thus validating the Dutch Revolt. The Spanish king was merely the dupe of the Inquisition, and so legitimacy was not itself directly attacked in the political realm. Needless to say the Apologie, written by a French Huguenot, found wide audiences in France, England, and even Germany.

The Enlightenment made use of The Inquisition mostly to contrast it with its own program of reason and reform. The myth had long passed into art and literature, in many ways more impressive and moving than the polemical writings of the time of the Dutch Revolt and the Protestant historians. Even traditionalist writers in the nineteenth century such as Dostoyevski delved into the Black Legend by giving us a portrait of The Grand Inquisitor.

 

[Iollain]

I would say as long as your pope did not give orders to do anything un-Christian, that any abuse (other than self defence) was just human nature.

If the popes did order un-Christian things then they are nothing to do with Christ, and especially the head of a church.

 

[Iollain]

Human nature mixed with superstition and uneducation...

 

[constance]

Scott_LaFrance, can you please cite your source for posts 3 and 4 which are, I believe, pasted from a Roman Catholic web site? A Jesuit, maybe?

My specific area of study is the Flemish/Brabantine Netherlands during the mid-sixteenth century. As you can imagine, I am a bit aware of religious persecution during this time as well as the Dutch Revolt and I would be happy to discuss it and learn more.

What exactly is the thesis of the discussion?

Constance

 

[BearJim]

Scott:
What you said in an earlier post is only half true. You stated that Muslims and Jews did not fall under the jurisdiction of the Inquisition because thet were not baptized. However, in 1492, the Jews of Spain were given a choice- convert or be expelled. In part, the "conversos" you speak of were Jews who were forced into converting and then watched to make certain that they had completely given up Jewish practices.
The Inquisition can not be defended any more than the Holocaust.

 

[ScottBot]

Scott:
What you said in an earlier post is only half true. You stated that Muslims and Jews did not fall under the jurisdiction of the Inquisition because thet were not baptized. However, in 1492, the Jews of Spain were given a choice- convert or be expelled. In part, the "conversos" you speak of were Jews who were forced into converting and then watched to make certain that they had completely given up Jewish practices.
The Inquisition can not be defended any more than the Holocaust.

They were given that imperative from the Spanish government, not the Church. And I am not defending the Inquisition per se, I am just trying the get to the bottom of the truth that happened. There is too much slander and bad information out there. Do you really believe that the Inquisition is responsible for 93 millions deaths in Europe, as is posited by some? The entire population of Europe hasn't even approached 93 million until modern times. The Inquisition would have had to kill every man, woman, child, dog, cat, horse, cow, and chicken to apporach that number.

 

[ScottBot]

Scott_LaFrance, can you please cite your source for posts 3 and 4 which are, I believe, pasted from a Roman Catholic web site? A Jesuit, maybe?

My specific area of study is the Flemish/Brabantine Netherlands during the mid-sixteenth century. As you can imagine, I am a bit aware of religious persecution during this time as well as the Dutch Revolt and I would be happy to discuss it and learn more.

What exactly is the thesis of the discussion?

Constance

Most of this information comes from Wikipedia or other 3rd party, neutral resources. I promise to refrain from using pro-catholic resources if others who wish to discuss this issue refrain from using anti-Catholic resources. Lets make a "gentleman's agreement" to keep this discussion on point and use resources that neither try to bury the horrors of the Inquisition, nor exaggerate them.

 

[BearJim]

I agree that there are many half-truths and exaggerations surronding the Inquisition. I would have to say however, that any time that the organized church- no matter the denomination- weds the state, inquisition will follow. How better to rid the "true faith" of dissenters.

 

[sttrattus]

I do not know!

 

[constance]

The number is terribly difficult to define.

Charles V's edict of 1535 specifically stated that those found in violation of the edict were guilty (punishment - death) and were to be sentenced by the civil courts - so even though the Holy Roman Emperor was dictating that they be put to death, the state supplied the sentence - these people are not normally counted in the "low" numbers (i.e. since they were not tortured to death by the Church it doesn't count).

Additionally, how many people languished away in prison as a direct result of the inquisition? They are victims too.

And what about the families of the victims? Were any of them financially impacted so much so that they were forced to go without food or shelter, subsequently dying themselves? They are victims too.

So, yes, while I suppose you could define a small number like 5,000 - the number is probably much higher.

Constance

 

[Athanasian Creed]

Here is just a bit of info. i found in regards to the Inquisition(s) -

"It would be better to be an atheist than believe in the God of the Inquisition."
- Anonymous Catholic

"The horrid conduct of this Holy Office (of the Inquisition) weakened the power and diminished the population of Spain by arresting the progress of arts, sciences, industry and commerce, and by compelling multitudes of families to abandon the kingdom; by instigating the expulsion of the Jews and the Moors, and by immolating on its flaming shambles more than three hundred thousand victims."
- Jean Antoine Llorente, Secretary to the Spanish Inquisition, 1790-1792

"The Inquisition is, in its very nature, good, mild, and preservative. It is the universal, indelible character of every ecclesiastical institution; you see it in Rome, and you can see it wherever the true Church has power.
- Comte Le Maistre, "Letters on the Spanish Inquisition", pg. 22

"Compared with the persecution of heresy in Europe from 1227 to 1492, the persecution of Christians by the Romans in the first three centuries after Christ was a mild and humane procedure. Making every allowance required by an historian and permitted to a Christian, we must rank the Inquisition, along with the wars and persecutions of our time, as among the darkest blots on the record of mankind, revealing a ferocity unknown in any beast."
- Peter de Rosa, "Vicars of Christ: The Dark side of the Papacy", pg. 35

"...it was the Popes who compelled bishops (Grand Inquisitors) and priests to condemn the heterodox to torture, confiscation of their goods, imprisonment, and death, and to enforce the execution of this sentence on the civil authorities, under pain of excommunication. From 1200 to 1500 the long series of Papal ordinances on the Inquisition, ever increasing in severity and cruelty, and their whole policy towards heresy, runs on without a break. It is a rigidly consistent system of legislation; every Pope confirms and improves upon the devices of his predecessor. All is directed to the one end, of completely uprooting every difference of belief..."
- J.H. Ignaz von Dollinger, "The Pope and the Council", pp. 190-193

"We hear that you forbid torture as contrary to the laws of your land. But no state law can override (the Church's) Canon Law, our law. Therefore I command you at once to submit those men to torture."
- Pope Clement V's rebuke of King Edward II of England

Pope Urban II (1088-1099), inspirer of the first Crusade, decreed that all heretics were to be tortured and killed. That became a dogma of the Church.

"...they (heretics) have merited to be excluded from the earth by death."
- Thomas Aquinas, "Summa Theologica", Vol. 4, pg. 90

"Know that the interests of the Holy See, and those of your crown, make it a duty to exterminate the Hussites. Remember that these impious persons dare proclaim principles of equality; they maintain that all Christians are brethren, and that God has not given to privileged men the right of ruling the nations; they hold that Christ came on earth to abolish slavery; they call the people to liberty, that is to the annihilation of kings and priests. While there is still time, then, turn your forces against Bohemia; burn, massacre, make deserts everywhere, for nothing can be more agreeable to God, or more useful to the cause of kings, than the extermination of the Hussites."
- Pope Martin V (1417-1431) in 1429 to the King of Poland

"The Roman Catholics believe there is a Purgatory, and that the souls suffer more pains in it then in Hell: But I think that the Inquisition is the only Purgatory on earth, and the holy Fathers (Popes/priests) are the judges and executioners in it. The reader may form a dreadful idea of the barbarity of that Tribunal by what I have already said, but I am sure it never will come up to what it is in reality, for it passeth all understanding..."
- D. Antonio Gavin, Catholic priest/Eyewitness to the Spanish Inquisition, "A Master Key to Popery: In Five Parts", pg. 253

"Heresy is an awful crime against God, and those who start a heresy are more guilty than they who are traitors to the civil government. If the state has a right to punish treason with death, the principle is the same that concedes to the spiritual authority (the RCC) the power of life and death over the archtraitor (heretic)."
- American Catholic weekly "The Tablet", November 5, 1938



Ray

 

[Axion]

Ray. Your so=called "information" on the Inquisition consists of nothing but a lot of dodgy "quotes" assembled from an anti-catholic website, along with a load of opinions and denunciations from anti-catholics.

What always surprises me about those who cme up with this sort of stuff is that their own protestant forbears were doing the same or worse as they accuse Catholics of at exactly the same time.

In actual fact, as reputable histories will tell you. (Try Kamen: The Spanish Inquisition) The Spanish Inquisition in 500 years executed around 3,000 - 6,000 people. Fewer than the Catholics Cromwell killed in one week in Ireland!

A little more information:

Letter of Richard Pollard to Thomas Cromwell, November 16, 1539

Pleaseth it your Lordship to be advertised that..[On November 15] the late abbot of Glastonbury went from Wells to Glastonbury, and there was drawn through the town upon a hurdle to the hill called the Torre, where he was put to execution; …Afore his execution [he] was examined upon divers articles and interrogatories to him ministered by me, but he could accuse no man of himself of any offence against the king's highness, nor would he confess no more gold nor silver nor any other thing more than he did before your Lordship in the Tower…I suppose it will be near Christmas before I shall have surveyed the lands at Glastonbury, and take the audit there….

On 8 April, 1538, Friar Forrest was taken to Lambeth, where, before Cranmer, he was required to state that King Henry was Head of the Church. This, however, he firmly refused to do. Forrest was sentenced to death, and on the 22nd of May he was taken to Smithfield and burned. To add to the "godly" humour of this public spectacle, the friar was burnt over a bonfire of religious statuary.

After Catholics rose up in protest at the closing of the Monasteries in 1536, King Henry wrote: Our pleasure is that . . . you shall cause such dreadful execution to be done upon a good number of the inhabitants of every town, village, and hamlet that have offended, as they may be a fearful spectacle to all others hereafter that would practice any like matter. Hundreds were massacred at random in the Catholic areas.

Others disembowelled or burnt within months included:1534: Elizabeth Barton, q.v. (The Holy Maid of Kent), with five companions;John Dering, O.S.B., Edward Bocking, O.S.B., Hugh Rich, O.S.F., Richard Masters p., Henry Gold p., 1537. Monks, 28. - After the pilgrimage of grace and the rising of Lincolnshire many, probably several hundred, were executed, of whom no record remains. The following names, which do survive, are grouped under their respective abbeys or priories. - Barling: Matthew Mackerel, abbot and Bishop of Chalcedon, Ord. Præm. Bardney: John Tenent, William Cole, John Francis, William Cowper, Richard Laynton, Hugh Londale, monks. Bridlington: William Wood, Prior. Fountains: William Thyrsk, O. Cist. Guisborough: James Cockerel, Prior.Jervaulx: Adam Sedbar, Abbot; George Asleby, monk. Kirkstead: Richard Harrison, Abbott, Richard Wade, William Swale, Henry Jenkinson, monks. Lenten: Nicholas Heath, Prior; William Gylham, monk. Sawlet: William Trafford, Abbott; Richard Eastgate, monk. Whalley: John Paslew, Abbott; John Eastgate, William Haydock, monks. Woburn: Robert Hobbes, Abbott; Ralph Barnes, sub-prior; Laurence Blonham, monk. York: John Pickering, O.S.D., Prior. Place unknown: George ab Alba Rose, O.S.A. Priests: William Burraby, Thomas Kendale, John Henmarsh, James Mallet, John Pickering, Thomas Redforth. Lords: Darcy and Hussey. Knights: Francis Bigod, Stephen Hammerton, Thomas Percy. Laymen (11): Robert Aske, Robert Constable, Bernard Fletcher, George Hudswell, Robert Lecche, Roger Neeve, George Lomley, Thomas Moyne, Robert Sotheby, Nicholas Tempest, Philip Trotter. 1538 (7): Henry Courtney, the Marquess of Exeter; Henry Pole, Lord Montague; Sir Edward Nevell and Sir Nicholas Carew; George Croft p., and John Collins p.; Hugh Holland l.. Their cause was "adhering to the Pope, and his Legate, Cardinal Pole". 1540 (6): Lawrence Cook O. Carm., Prior of Doncaster; Thomas Empson, O.S.B.; Robert Bird p.; William Peterson p.; William Richardson p.; Giles Heron l. 1544 (3): Martin de Courdres, O.S.A., and Paul of St. William, O.S.A.; Darby Genning

Over the next few reigns around 600 Catholic priests alone, and thousands of ordinary Catholics were disembowelled or otherwise killed by the Protestant inquisition because of their faith. Topcliffe, Elizabeth's chief torturer, had a special house full of torture equipment to be used on Catholic priests. One elderly priest was tortured 12 separate times to gain information on other priests and believers.

 

[Athanasian Creed]

Ray. Your so=called "information" on the Inquisition consists of nothing but a lot of dodgy "quotes" assembled from an anti-catholic website, along with a load of opinions and denunciations from anti-catholics.

What always surprises me about those who cme up with this sort of stuff is that their own protestant forbears were doing the same or worse as they accuse Catholics of at exactly the same time.

Why do you assume anything came from "anti-catholic" websites - it did NOT. As far as them being "denunciations from anti-catholics", hardly, the majority are from Catholics themselves, Popes included !!!

Facts are facts, the RCC DID in fact kill Protestants. It is without question. AND i also acknowledge that some Protestants did the same to Catholics and other dissenters. I'm NOT denying that ! I have made mention on other threads that very fact.

Accept the fact that people are going to disagree with you on things like Church history - people should stop using the "anti-catholic" card everytime someone disagrees with them...


Ray

 

[Axion]

Why do you assume anything came from "anti-catholic" websites - it did NOT. As far as them being "denunciations from anti-catholics", hardly, the majority are from Catholics themselves, Popes included !!!

Because I've seen almost identical collections of cut-short, unlinked, unsourced, context-less "quotes" before - on such sites. The fact that these quotes are all entirely negative, and designed to give the impression of a church "thirsting for blood" is equally a red light. What were the exact words of Pope Urban for example, in what context, and from what document?

Facts are facts, the RCC DID in fact kill Protestants. It is without question. AND i also acknowledge that some Protestants did the same to Catholics and other dissenters. I'm NOT denying that ! I have made mention on other threads that very fact.

Accept the fact that people are going to disagree with you on things like Church history - people should stop using the "anti-catholic" card everytime someone disagrees with them...

Yes. Catholics did kill protestants and vice-versa. Maybe I was misjudging you, in responding as I did. But I have met a lot of people on the web who either believe or otherwise promote the Black Legend of the "Inquisition" in order to denigrate and slander the Catholic Church.

 

[ScottBot]

Another point that seems to be getting overlooking in this "Catholic vs Protestant" Inquisitoral debate is that the Catholic Inquisition was designed to root out heresy - corruption of Christianity in general, whereas the Protestant "inquisitions" were designed specifically to exterminate Catholics because of their faith.The Medival Inquisition, commonly regarded as the first of the public inquisitions, was specifically enacted to root out the Abligensian Heresy in southern France. read up on the bizarre beliefs of the Catharists heretics. Allowing them to gain foothold and spread their twisted, corrupt form of "Christianity" could have destabilized Europe. For those that are unaware, the Catharist "purists" (from the Greek katharos, meaning pure) believed that the Catholic Church had corrupted the true Gospel (sorry to you Fundamentalist who thought you had this idea first), but in reality, they were just an extended, mutant variant of the Gnostic and Arian cults of the 2nd and 3rd century. They were known throughout Europe, as vestiges of their sect were seen in Italy, France, Spain, and Germany, but their primary concentration was southern France, northern Spain and northern Italy. It was know under various other heresies and names, specifically Arians, Manicheans Cazzari, Piphili, Ketzers, Paulicians, Bougres, Bogomili, and Priscillianists.

Here are some of the beliefs common to all of the different variants of the Catharists.

1. Dualism. They believed that the world was created and controlled by two equally powerful gods. God is the creator of the spiritual principle, Satan is the creator of the physical principle. Since all natural disasters, disease, and death were a result of the physical principle of creation, all aspects of the material world were considered tainted with evil (this is where the inital belief in the "total depravity of man" comes from). Hence, God is the creator of our immortal soul which is trapped in a tainted and inherently evil physical shell created by Satan. Since Jesus Christ had to appear to man as redeemer, He could not have inhabited a corrupt body, so he was given a diffenent form of existance. His birth, life, suffering and death were only apparent, they were not real. His redemptive suffering and death were not operative, they were only instructive. Since flesh is evil, the ressurection will be entirely a spiritual one, not a bodily one.

2. Morality. Since man is a living contradiction, a perfect immortal soul trapped in a corrupt physical body, it leads of bizarre and patently unscriptural interpretations of salvation. Since Jesus' death was only apparent and instructive, the belief was that to liberate the soul from the body was the true means of salvation. The soul was never corrupt, therefore when it was liberated from the body, it automatically went to heaven. So suicide was not only accepted, it was actually exhaulted (and at times mandatory). Marriage was forbidden, as the primary purpose af marriage was procreation. SInce procreation resulted in another soul becoming trapped in an evil physical prison, procreation was forbidden as was marriage. However, fornication was acceptable, since it was a primary urge of the physical body. Since governments were also a derivative of the physical principle of creation, loyalty and obedience to governments were rejected and replaced with severe vows of obedience to the Catharist leaders (since they were leading by the spiritual prinicple).

So, you can see how the doctrinal beliefs of the Cathars, and the resultant moral restraints would have been problematic in Europe. No marriage, no procreation, rejection of the government, advocation of suicide could have created severe problems for society as a whole. Since the sect was found throughout Europe, it was not isolated in little pockets of southern France and could have become endemic if allowed to proliferate. So, the Church was sent to "inquire" about the nature of this corrupt sect, and believers in the cult were turned over to the local government to be punished for treason. (since they rejected the legitimate authority of the state).

 

[constance]

One thing to remember is that the Reformation isn't a sports game - you don't get to have a team! There is no scoreboard like this:
(Protestants killed by Catholics: _____, Catholics killed by Protestants:_____)

In reality, Catholics and protestants were both killing each other AND their own. AND they were killing Jews, the insane, etc. Sometimes, it was really a thinly veiled secular power play (especially where charges of witchcraft were concerned).

Before anyone gets their underdrawers in a bundle they need to look at the plight of the Anabaptists, who EVERYONE was after, and who (unfortunately, for them) made nonviolence a central point of their code of ethics. These groups had more victims (even though smaller in number) in the sixteenth century than either Catholics or protestants.

Regarding the Cathars, while they were admittedly whacked, the Lollards are very very interesting, and the Waldensens are much more interesting. The Husites, as well.... All of them, you wonder, if they had more strength of numbers, how they would have shaped the Reformation (more than the Waldensens and Hus did...)...

Constance

 

[lismore]

They were given that imperative from the Spanish government, not the Church. And I am not defending the Inquisition per se, I am just trying the get to the bottom of the truth that happened. There is too much slander and bad information out there. Do you really believe that the Inquisition is responsible for 93 millions deaths in Europe, as is posited by some? The entire population of Europe hasn't even approached 93 million until modern times. The Inquisition would have had to kill every man, woman, child, dog, cat, horse, cow, and chicken to apporach that number.

Hi

If even one innocent person was murdered by the inquisition, this is the point where your group crossed the line from 'light' into 'darkness' in my books.

And I suspect you had more than 1 person burned even with knowledge of their innocence. Indeed, in my home city more than one innocent person was martyred by the Catholic Church and indeed, more than one innocent catholic has been martyred by protestants around here. Bear in mind Jesus was falsely accused, put on a show trial and martyred supposedly to protect a large man-made organisation. If you kill someone to protect a group, have you not become the pharisee?

What actually is a Christian's Job? To defend a massive man made organisation from justified criticism by other Christians? or to make all Christians conform to one mould?

There is a mould: Jesus.

Romans 8:29 NIV
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.


The Holy Spirit is the moulder:

Jeremiah 18:6 NIV
"O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter does?" declares the LORD. "Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel.

Take the example of George Wishart: burned on the order of Cardinal beaton in 1546 for preaching the gospel.

Or take Father John Murphy of Boolavogue, executed in 1798 in Ireland. One other priest (called murphy) who knew him was arrested by the British authorities and martyred by protestants because he was a catholic and trying to stop the murder of some innocent bystanders caught up in the violence of those days. They hanged him and then cut off his head and used it as a football.

Do you think such people who burn or kill in the name of catholic or protestant actually have the good news of the gospel of peace? What do we have as a believer: we have each other and we have the Lord. A denomination: RC, Protestant or whatever is not a living breathing thing. Its a creation of man, it cant save you like the Lord can, or help you like another believer can. what is necessary for salvation: Christ, what is necessary for fellowship: Jesus said 'wheverever two or more are gathered in my name there I am with you' . Throw out the rest, at best its unncessary, at worst tainted.

Lismore