Inherent Goodness or Badness?

[Christdiedforme]

Most Christians believe human beings are born "bad" because of sin and we must be made right by Jesus Christ.

Most atheists/agnostics/humanists believe human beings are not born bad but we make our own choices.

My question is: How can we really measure this badness/goodness thing? To say that a baby is "good" or "bad"...what does that even imply? A baby is a baby...innocent and in need of someone to take care of him or her.

For those who say we are good, why do you think this?

Thanks!

 

[The Nihilist]

I do not find the terms good and bad to be particularly meaningful.

 

[The Nihilist]

I do not find the terms good and bad to be particularly meaningful.

 

[quatona]

Most Christians believe human beings are born "bad" because of sin and we must be made right by Jesus Christ.

Most atheists/agnostics/humanists believe human beings are not born bad but we make our own choices.

It´s always interesting to be told what you believe. Just today another believer told us that it´s the other way round: it´s the believers who believe in choice, and the atheists that don´t.

My question is: How can we really measure this badness/goodness thing? To say that a baby is "good" or "bad"...what does that even imply?

I don´t know. I think it´s nonsense.
Good and bad are terms that say something about our expectations and desires rather than about the subject.
When it comes to statements like "man is good" or "man is bad" my question is: Compared to what?

 

[billwald]

We have written history that goes back maybe 6000 years. Where is the evidence that humans are more moral or more civilized than 6000 years ago?

 

[Meshavrischika]

Most Christians believe human beings are born "bad" because of sin and we must be made right by Jesus Christ.

Most atheists/agnostics/humanists believe human beings are not born bad but we make our own choices.

My question is: How can we really measure this badness/goodness thing? To say that a baby is "good" or "bad"...what does that even imply? A baby is a baby...innocent and in need of someone to take care of him or her.

For those who say we are good, why do you think this?

Thanks!

most things labeled "bad" or "evil" are just things that don't work... they are not profitable or they have less than desirable outcomes. You could say, they are dysfunctional. The exact opposite is true for good (or at least in my mind it's supposed to be).

 

[Wednesday]

People are born neutral, the world around them, the circumstances, and upbringing may afect their choices in life. However, the meaning *good* and *bad* are a matter of perspective. as you can see from this board the definitions people give are vastly different. It can be argued forever and we are not going anywhere with this.

So, there is no inherent goodness or badness. It's complicated.

Also, *most* is a generalisation, it doesn't work.

 

[Autumnleaf]

I do not find the terms good and bad to be particularly meaningful.

You will if/when something bad happens to you or someone you love.

 

[wanderingone]

Most Christians believe human beings are born "bad" because of sin and we must be made right by Jesus Christ.

Most atheists/agnostics/humanists believe human beings are not born bad but we make our own choices.

My question is: How can we really measure this badness/goodness thing? To say that a baby is "good" or "bad"...what does that even imply? A baby is a baby...innocent and in need of someone to take care of him or her.

For those who say we are good, why do you think this?

Thanks!

Actually I believe not that we are born "bad" or "good" but that we are born human and not able to avoid making some mistakes along the way. If that means we are all born into sin... then okay... feel free to call it that.

 

[The Nihilist]

You will if/when something bad happens to you or someone you love.

that would be unpleasant to one degree or another, but not bad in any other sense

 

[Meshavrischika]

that would be unpleasant to one degree or another, but not bad in any other sense

you mean not evil. I think that's the major disconnect. No one LIKES unpleasant things to happen... this does not make them "evil" persay. I dont' think bad and evil are interchangable.

 

[Meshavrischika]

that would be unpleasant to one degree or another, but not bad in any other sense

you mean not evil. I think that's the major disconnect. No one LIKES unpleasant things to happen... this does not make them "evil" persay. I dont' think bad and evil are interchangable.

 

[keith99]

Most Christians believe human beings are born "bad" because of sin and we must be made right by Jesus Christ.

Most atheists/agnostics/humanists believe human beings are not born bad but we make our own choices.

My question is: How can we really measure this badness/goodness thing? To say that a baby is "good" or "bad"...what does that even imply? A baby is a baby...innocent and in need of someone to take care of him or her.

For those who say we are good, why do you think this?

Thanks!

This is one reason why more and more thinking people who might otherwise be inclined to Christianity opt out. Everything gets simplified for the fools in the pews.

If the fall made people bad then what point in redemption or even letting them try? Rather after the fall they were just that, fallen. Before they wer as children following their Fathers word. Good because they followed one who was good. After the fall they had the knowledge of good and evil and followed their own understanding. One that had parts inclined to rebellion and sin, but still knowing right from wrong. Often trying to do good yet failing.

The Christian message only makes sense if directed towards a being who still wishes to do that which is 'good' yet fails. If there is no such wish there is no call to listen, if there is no failing there is no need for 'salvation'. I'd say the defenition of a bad or evil being is a being who wished to do evil rather than good.

 

[The Nihilist]

you mean not evil. I think that's the major disconnect. No one LIKES unpleasant things to happen... this does not make them "evil" persay. I dont' think bad and evil are interchangable.

I tend to agree, but the OP is using the terms interchangeably. I didn't want to get into semantics.

 

[heart of peace]

Most Christians believe human beings are born "bad" because of sin and we must be made right by Jesus Christ.

Most atheists/agnostics/humanists believe human beings are not born bad but we make our own choices.

My question is: How can we really measure this badness/goodness thing? To say that a baby is "good" or "bad"...what does that even imply? A baby is a baby...innocent and in need of someone to take care of him or her.

For those who say we are good, why do you think this?

Thanks!

I always am intrigued when I read posts starting off with generalizations. How did you arrive at your conclusions that "most" chirstians and/or atheists believe one thing over the other?

I believe that we are born inherrantly "good." I use quotes because how each person interprets good in this thread may vary.

We all are born with a desire to socialize and to remain alive. Tribal communities are evidence of this fact. Toddlers in these communities do not have to be chased around to remain with the tribe (if they don't, they may face being eaten by animals) and they are quite capable of playing by knives without handling them.

Additionally, since I am a Christian, I believe that I am made in the image of God. God is good and thus we are good. However, we are also born with a propensity to sin. Falling into sin is something that will occur. Needing Jesus does not mean that God "messed up" when He made us.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

My question is: How can we really measure this badness/goodness thing? To say that a baby is "good" or "bad"...what does that even imply? A baby is a baby...innocent and in need of someone to take care of him or her.

Like rings and ridges in the cross-section of the trunk of a tree, all we bes at any age bes whats left of that baby, carved into us the legacy of whether anyone took care of us -- or whether they treats us like we bes bad.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

The Christian message only makes sense if directed towards a being who still wishes to do that which is 'good' yet fails. If there is no such wish there is no call to listen, if there is no failing there is no need for 'salvation'. I'd say the definition of a bad or evil being is a being who wished to do evil rather than good.

Does that mean if someone has fought all their lives to shut off the good impulse inside because they perceive it to lead them astray that this would make them an evil person? What if you bes born that way and from a very young age, like 5 or 6, you begin realising that any time you follow the "good" you get horribly hurt and devastated, and you want desperately to have what other people have -- this amazing ability to NOT FEEL ANYTHING and yet make everyone ELSE around them sick with emotion so as to control them -- and the only thing standing in your way bes your inability to hold a grudge or the fact that forgiving and loving bes your default setting? So you hates this and fights it all your life. Bes that make you EVIL?

 

[vajradhara]

Namaste CDFM,

thank you for the post.

Most Christians believe human beings are born "bad" because of sin and we must be made right by Jesus Christ.

not because of sin, per se, but because of Adams sin of disobedience and the consequence that humans could now discern good from evil in the same way that God could.

though i'd agree... most Christians don't think of it like that and think of it like you've explained.

Most atheists/agnostics/humanists believe human beings are not born bad but we make our own choices.

we are born good is the opposite of what your initial statement is, not that we make our own choices.

that said, it is clear that humans make their own choices to the extent which they are able... which often isn't very much. i don't think that free will exists in any meaningful sense.

My question is: How can we really measure this badness/goodness thing? To say that a baby is "good" or "bad"...what does that even imply? A baby is a baby...innocent and in need of someone to take care of him or her.

agreed.. the entire idea of "good" and "bad" is tremendously relative to the culture in which the idea is being discussed. i can assure you that something you consider "good" is something that i would consider "bad". though, in truth, the use of such terms isn't very helpful as it doesn't actually convey any information other than "i don't approve of what this person did, said or thought."

it is easier, to some degree, to talk of moral and ethical behavior and what constitutes this but there is still such a degree of relativity to such an endeavor that there are few consensus views to be found.

For those who say we are good, why do you think this?

within the context of the discussion, given the options of born good or born bad, i'd say i think humans are born good because i don't believe in the Bible and it's far fetched claims of consequences passing from person to person like a genetic disorder.

i also happen to think that a view which tells people they are bad and worthless where even their very best efforts at moral and ethical behavior are like "filthy rags" where the only solution is offered by the religion being shilled is tremendously manipulative and mean-spirited.

metta,

~v

 

[cantata]

Well, I think there are good biological reasons for the prevalence of behaviour we might want to call 'good' - such as looking after our family and offspring, for example. So I think most everyone is born 'good', insofar as they're likely, under normal circumstances, to end up being reasonably decent people.