Infused vs. Imputed

Mathetes the kerux said:

Surely, but that has nothing to do with the topic.



1. Sure it is . . . when what u are on the insided fails to be on the outside, then u are loosing the battle. Like getting angry at someone who cuts u off on the freeway, or for u mr Boondocks, , when ur dog poops on the floor or chews some of ur shoes . . . at that moment of anger, if u allow ur flesh to have sway, you yell or growl, maybe smack em in the snout out of frustration that u have to now clean the mess or buy something new . . . but where is your hope in that moment? Is it in the ability of a canine to sway the fruit of the Spirit in your life . . . or is it in Christ who will empower you to discipline the dog out of duty and control the anger?
2. Not according to Hebrews and Thessalonians. Sorry but they make it clear that sanctification is something to be arrived at . . . which is DIFFERENT from the sanctified once and for all heart of the believer.

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You are keying off of your NASV's use of sanctification. My KJ says unto holiness, which as worded suggests a way of life not a process to attain something as in a goal. I live in holiness, it is not something I strive to be, I already am.

I do normally follow the leading of the Spirit and normally do not sin and certainly do not habitually sin as a life style Gal 5:16-21. I did not say I have arrived and never sin. I agree with Paul's testimony in Rom 7:24. And that is why I John 1:9-2:1 is in my Bible. Now all that is different than my flesh that keeps crawling off the altar Rom 12:1.

bugkiller

Mathetes the kerux said:

Really, dear brother, I dont think u are getting the logical progression. There is no "stuck under the law" we kno that the only hope we have for winning the war of Romans 7 is the FACT of grace. That is not law brother . . . it is GRACE. We do not fight to justify ourselves . . . THAT would be law and stuck under it. We fight because OUR JOY IS IN THE PLEASURE OF OUR GOD . . . and He is pleased with the killing of the flesh and the obedience to the Spirit . .. not for justification . . . BUT FOR JOY. So, sorry, BUT, we are not stuck under law.

AND, it is the FACT that internally we ARE holy that makes the battle even winable . . . not that we will become more holy, but that we CAN win BECAUSE WE ARE JUSTIFIED. I still am not sure you are getting it . . . it is not about becoming MORE holy . . . in the sense of a degree more than we are at the moment of justification . . . it is about LETTING what is ALREADY holy INSIDE, OUT for the world to see.

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Then can you tell me what you are striving for in your process of sanctification? I think the end process of sanctification is holiness as in righteousness whith out which no man shall see the Lord. Is your idea something different?

bugkiller

Mathetes the kerux said:

Unfortunately tho, that is what the author to Hebrews and Paul says.

Obviously there are two concepts of sanctification;
1. When our hearts are changed and we become SAINTS (holy ones)
2. The PROCESS that God wills in our day to day lives of the INNER reality of our SANCTIFIED hearts working itself OUT through the flesh (KILLING THE FLESH NOT SANCTIFYING IT) for the world to see

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What does holy mean? BTW this is a process. I am not trying to be hard to get along with? I am trying to get you to think on your own. If I say it then you can say I am trying to make you me. That is not the case. You can never become me. But you can be a better disciple. I am not saying you are not one and don't have enthusiasm. You do have spunk.

bugkiller

bugkiller said:

You are keying off of your NASV's use of sanctification. My KJ says unto holiness, which as worded suggests a way of life not a process to attain something as in a goal. I live in holiness, it is not something I strive to be, I already am.

I do normally follow the leading of the Spirit and normally do not sin and certainly do not habitually sin as a life style Gal 5:16-21. I did not say I have arrived and never sin. I agree with Paul's testimony in Rom 7:24. And that is why I John 1:9-2:1 is in my Bible. Now all that is different than my flesh that keeps crawling off the altar Rom 12:1.

bugkiller

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a way of life not a process to attain something as in a goal. I live in holiness, it is not something I strive to be, I already am.

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Ok, u must forgive me, U ARE REALLY NOT GETTING IT. I have NEVER ADVOCATED SOMETHING TO STRIVE TO BE . . . READ WHAT I AM SAYING. I dont know why you are NOT READING . There is NO GOAL of holiness . . . it is, exactly as u said, A WAY OF LIFE THAT REFLECTS HOLINESS.

OH MY . . . ONCE again u still apparently do not get it . . . u keep trying to make me mean or hold to something I never meant nor hold to . . .

You are keying off of your NASV's use of sanctification. My KJ says unto holiness

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AND AGAIN, they are the same word, etymologically there is NO difference . . . there is no point to be had here.

I did not say I have arrived and never sin.

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So u do sin . . . k. Are u still holy, or do u loose ur holiness? And when u do walk according to the Spirit, what do people see? When u sin, what do u see? Is it not the demonstration of Holiness that people see in the fruit of the Spirit?

bugkiller said:

Would you like to try again?

bugkiller

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Im spot on buddy . . . but if u think it was something else, then you can feel free to try . . .

Frogster said:

As far as..

10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

It says it..no?

Also..you have ducked my simple qustion.Is the new creation,or Adam sanctified? I don't see how either on can be,but I await your reply.

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It says it..no?

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It does . . . but it is not refering to the same thing . . . it is refering to the application of the sacrifice of Christ to the person . . . which is the changing of the internal heart.

we are not speaking of this . . .

Is the new creation,or Adam sanctified?

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I have already told you that the flesh (ur "adam") is not sanctified. It is the new heart, the new creation that is made holy/sanctified.

bugkiller said:

Then can you tell me what you are striving for in your process of sanctification? I think the end process of sanctification is holiness as in righteousness whith out which no man shall see the Lord. Is your idea something different?

bugkiller

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Then can you tell me what you are striving for in your process of sanctification?

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To kill the flesh . . . which is evidence of the righteousness inside, which shows as righteousness in deeds (which reflects the righteousness of the heart) that others see and praise the Father in heaven.

bugkiller said:

What does holy mean? BTW this is a process. I am not trying to be hard to get along with? I am trying to get you to think on your own. If I say it then you can say I am trying to make you me. That is not the case. You can never become me. But you can be a better disciple. I am not saying you are not one and don't have enthusiasm. You do have spunk.

bugkiller

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What does holy mean?

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The primary meaning of agios/hakodesh is uniqueness, unparalleled, on par with none, LIKE NO OTHER, peculiar.

The secondary applicatory meaning of agios/hakodesh is purity, righteousness BUT THIS IS DERIVATIVE OF THE PRIMARY MEANING.

Because one is set apart, unique, unlike any other (while all the others are mean and destable, worldly and evil) one is therefore rightoues and pure as the One who is FIRST Holy, unique, set apart and lifted up.

It is a common fallacy to see holy as synonomous with "pure."

As for the rest of your post . . . I am a disciple of the Son brother, u be faithful to do what the Spirit leads u to do, and if in that process I learn something more of what it means to apply the Gospel of the Glory of God in the Face of Jesus Christ in my daily life, the praise to Him. But I kno my theology dude . . . the problem here is that u keep trying to make me mean something that I, nor any of the others, who hold the same position as I, would ever mean . . . it is a strawman (so-called in logic and rhetoric) . . . for you are not even accurately getting what we hold.

I think the issue is terms . . . u obviously believe in the same process that I refer to . . . but u have issues with calling it "sanctification" because you are foisting a different meaning, that is used in other contexts with the same word, upon the term. Problem is that the term is used in more than one sense in the NT.

Mathetes the kerux said:

Ok, u must forgive me, U ARE REALLY NOT GETTING IT. I have NEVER ADVOCATED SOMETHING TO STRIVE TO BE . . . READ WHAT I AM SAYING. I dont know why you are NOT READING . There is NO GOAL of holiness . . . it is, exactly as u said, A WAY OF LIFE THAT REFLECTS HOLINESS.

OH MY . . . ONCE again u still apparently do not get it . . . u keep trying to make me mean or hold to something I never meant nor hold to . . .



AND AGAIN, they are the same word, etymologically there is NO difference . . . there is no point to be had here.



So u do sin . . . k. Are u still holy, or do u loose ur holiness? And when u do walk according to the Spirit, what do people see? When u sin, what do u see? Is it not the demonstration of Holiness that people see in the fruit of the Spirit?

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No I don't lose my holiness as some teach. A defiled temple is still a temple and holy. It is my soul that is redeemed and from sin, not the wrath of God. My flesh is what sins Romans. My flesh will never be redeemed,it has recieved its final unappealable sentence - death. You look on at the flesh when you speak of sanctification as a process. Holiness, justification and sanctification are all parts of righteousness. If you are righteous, you are also justified, sanctified and holy. I have the righteousness of Jesus (God) imputed on me. It is not my choice. It happens when I accepted redemption (became saved).

The sanctification you present is a control/manipulation issue managed by the religious leaders by guilt. It is also something the world understands and manipulates the religious person. Most go by what they hear not what the Bible says. Tell me how many professing christians do you know that have read every word of the Bible from cover to cover. Not very many to include pastors and the rest of the religious community leaders. Quiz them? I think you will find they can't even get simple historical Bible stories correct. Then they want me to believe what they say is correct.

A good example is my neighbor who has been in church more than 30 years telling me that Adam and Eve had children while in the Garden of Eden so they could commit adultery. He says he has read the Bible cover to cover at least once. Something is wrong. Maybe sin did not happen before conception. If this is so then it is possible that we did not inherit a sin nature. So you can see the problems.

So you maybe saved (redeemed) from the wrath of God, but I am redeemed from sin that brings the wrath of God. Maybe you don't see a difference. I do.To many people think they have fire insurance. Their relationship with God is fear (scared) not respect. My neighbor runs his life with fear, not knowledge. It cost him 100,000 in the economy down turn. Had he kept it he would have lost bout 15,000 maybe. But he got scared and his heart is where his money is. It affects everything in his life both spiritual and physical temporal stuff.

bugkiller

Mathetes the kerux said:

To kill the flesh . . . which is evidence of the righteousness inside, which shows as righteousness in deeds (which reflects the righteousness of the heart) that others see and praise the Father in heaven.

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Guess what? You will never suceed. Sorry to disappoint you. Your standard is for men. I did not say you do it to be recognized. Living a holy life is not a process. It is a lifestyle. You is or you ain't. No in betweens. It is like saying your wife is sorta pregnant.

bugkiller

Mathetes the kerux said:

The primary meaning of agios/hakodesh is uniqueness, unparalleled, on par with none, LIKE NO OTHER, peculiar.

The secondary applicatory meaning of agios/hakodesh is purity, righteousness BUT THIS IS DERIVATIVE OF THE PRIMARY MEANING.

Because one is set apart, unique, unlike any other (while all the others are mean and destable, worldly and evil) one is therefore rightoues and pure as the One who is FIRST Holy, unique, set apart and lifted up.

It is a common fallacy to see holy as synonomous with "pure."

As for the rest of your post . . . I am a disciple of the Son brother, u be faithful to do what the Spirit leads u to do, and if in that process I learn something more of what it means to apply the Gospel of the Glory of God in the Face of Jesus Christ in my daily life, the praise to Him. But I kno my theology dude . . . the problem here is that u keep trying to make me mean something that I, nor any of the others, who hold the same position as I, would ever mean . . . it is a strawman (so-called in logic and rhetoric) . . . for you are not even accurately getting what we hold.

I think the issue is terms . . . u obviously believe in the same process that I refer to . . . but u have issues with calling it "sanctification" because you are foisting a different meaning, that is used in other contexts with the same word, upon the term. Problem is that the term is used in more than one sense in the NT.

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Very good now what does sanctification mean? I do not deny that you don't know the theology you have been taught. My boiled down definition of holy and its deriviaives is set apart. Which is very much in line with your personal highlighted statement. I did not say I did not accept your book definition, cause I do.

bugkiller

Mathetes the kerux said:

It does . . . but it is not refering to the same thing . . . it is refering to the application of the sacrifice of Christ to the person . . . which is the changing of the internal heart.

we are not speaking of this . . .Is that what it says?

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Does it say we have been ? yes or no?


10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

I have already told you that the flesh (ur "adam") is not sanctified. It is the new heart, the new creation that is made holy/sanctified.

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Is made? sounds done to me..please advise?

Matt..why do these read as done?

Acts 20:32
And now I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.


Acts 26:18
to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

Romans 15:16
to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.


1 Corinthians 1:2
To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:


1 Corinthians 6:11 (Show me 1 Corinthians 6)
And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.


Hebrews 2:11
For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers.


Hebrews 10:10
And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

bugkiller said:

Very good now what does sanctification mean? I do not deny that you don't know the theology you have been taught. My boiled down definition of holy and its deriviaives is set apart. Which is very much in line with your personal highlighted statement. I did not say I did not accept your book definition, cause I do.

bugkiller

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Very good now what does sanctification mean?

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Holy-fication

lolololololol

Mathetes the kerux said:

Holy-fication

lolololololol

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Hi Matt

10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Frogster said:

Does it say we have been ? yes or no?


10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Is made? sounds done to me..please advise?

Matt..why do these read as done?

Acts 20:32
And now I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.


Acts 26:18
to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

Romans 15:16
to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.


1 Corinthians 1:2
To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:


1 Corinthians 6:11 (Show me 1 Corinthians 6)
And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.


Hebrews 2:11
For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers.


Hebrews 10:10
And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

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Does it say we have been ? yes or no?

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Again, yes, but it is not refering to the same thing we are speaking of . . .

this

Heb 12:14
14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.
NASU

however, is.

For some reason, the author feels comfortable in saying BOTH:
1. You have been sanctified
AND
2. Pursue sanctification

Is made? sounds done to me..please advise?

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Yeah, exactly as u said. Is MADE . . . the internal heart is DONE with being sanctified at the moment of new birth. BUT this is not what we have been speaking of.

Matt..why do these read as done?

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Cause they are, lol.

But these verses are not what I am refering to. These are speaking of justification . . . check ur own citation

But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus

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See the parallelism? Washed, sanctified, justified are all the same thing in this passage. The sanctifiying of the heart in regeneration/faith that is the ONCE AND DONE act of justification IS NOT THE SAME THING AS THE PROCESS OF SANCTIFICATION that we are speaking of.

Mathetes the kerux said:

Again, yes, but it is not refering to the same thing we are speaking of . . .

this

Heb 12:14
14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.
NASU

however, is.

For some reason, the author feels comfortable in saying BOTH:
1. You have been sanctified
AND
2. Pursue sanctification



Yeah, exactly as u said. Is MADE . . . the internal heart is DONE with being sanctified at the moment of new birth. BUT this is not what we have been speaking of.



Cause they are, lol.

But these verses are not what I am refering to. These are speaking of justification . . . check ur own citation



See the parallelism? Washed, sanctified, justified are all the same thing in this passage. The sanctifiying of the heart in regeneration/faith that is the ONCE AND DONE act of justification IS NOT THE SAME THING AS THE PROCESS OF SANCTIFICATION that we are speaking of.

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oh come on..your groping!
those verses stand on their own right...

Any way..God bless,I hope you finally get fully sanctified...hey one more thing..

Are you more sanctified than others in your church?

Frogster said:

Does it say we have been ? yes or no?


10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Is made? sounds done to me..please advise?

Matt..why do these read as done?

Acts 20:32
And now I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.


Acts 26:18
to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

Romans 15:16
to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.


1 Corinthians 1:2
To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:


1 Corinthians 6:11 (Show me 1 Corinthians 6)
And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.


Hebrews 2:11
For he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers.


Hebrews 10:10
And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

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You sure don't need any habernaro pepers. There is plenty heat, and maybe some fire! Wow! great post.

bugkiller

bugkiller said:

You sure don't need any habernaro pepers. There is plenty heat, and maybe some fire! Wow! great post.

bugkiller

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thanks swatter! must be the salsaaaa.

i am hoping to see what matt replies..I am wondering what degree he is at,compared to to others.I guess there are some more sanctified in his church..or less..i dunno?

Mathetes the kerux said:

Holy-fication

lolololololol

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Whas ze matta? Tain't most zactly de same thang are it? Or ya cain't do betta. Book learnin got ya in a bind, hain't it? Yas sir I is a pokin at ya. Nuttin like a little funnin.


Now would you mind spelling out your definition of holy?

bugkiller

bugkiller said:

Whas ze matta? Tain't most zactly de same thang are it? Or ya cain't do betta. Book learnin got ya in a bind, hain't it? Yas sir I is a pokin at ya. Nuttin like a little funnin.


Now would you mind spelling out your definition of holy?

bugkiller

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bookbinder?