Infused vs. Imputed

Tangible · Apr 16, 2010

With God, sin is completely binary.

In civil righteousness there are degrees of sin, mostly based on the consequences of that particular sin, with different civil penalties prescribed accordingly.

bugkiller · Apr 16, 2010

MrPolo said:
So if that's true, we should not find in Scripture any examples of one sin being called greater than another, correct?

I assume you have an example by a quote. What is it please?

bugkiller

Frogster · Apr 16, 2010

MrPolo said:
So if that's true, we should not find in Scripture any examples of one sin being called greater than another, correct?

What is the difference? In Adam all sinned,all die,all were condemned.Now in the second Adam,it is His righteousness,so we can't count or boast.

See how your posts,with all due respect,are about counting.

Rom 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

MrPolo · Apr 16, 2010

bugkiller said:
I assume you have an example by a quote. What is it please?

Just one example is when Jesus told Pilate: "he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin."

As you all point out, all sin leads to death, but to equal degrees is not in the Scriptural text. It would be like saying: "All bricks equally make a building more complete" but not taking into account large and small bricks.

psalms 91 · Apr 16, 2010

Did not Jesus say that with our new covenant that the very thought was sin. To look upon a woman with lust in your heart was commiting adulktery. No I do not think there are degrees of sin. Any sin leads top death and if there is any sin on us not covered by the blood of Jesus then God cannot look upon us and He cannot bless us, for with sin we are under a curse.

MrPolo · Apr 16, 2010

psalms 91 said:
Did not Jesus say that with our new covenant that the very thought was sin. To look upon a woman with lust in your heart was commiting adulktery.

Jesus did say that. However, He did not say all sins are of equal degrees. And as I just cited in the example with Pilate, Jesus gave an example of one sin "greater" than another.

bugkiller · Apr 16, 2010

MrPolo said:
Jesus did say that. However, He did not say all sins are of equal degrees. And as I just cited in the example with Pilate, Jesus gave an example of one sin "greater" than another.

OK, uncle. I guess you won't be guilty of sin for stealing a paper clip. I thought breaking the law made you guilty of breaking the whole law. No net difference effectively. I think it used as a trump card of the self roighteous individual to say I am better than you.

bugkiller

psalms 91 · Apr 16, 2010

Well said bugkiller, maybe one of the many reasons that a lot of churchs are getting empty

Frogster · Apr 16, 2010

psalms 91 said:
Well said bugkiller, maybe one of the many reasons that a lot of churchs are getting empty

They are empty because in Moses,the pastors "live and move,and have their being".

bugkiller · Apr 16, 2010

psalms 91 said:
Well said bugkiller, maybe one of the many reasons that a lot of churchs are getting empty

Sadly I don't see much validity of church these days. Three songs or courses sang over and over, give your money and hear something that can range from comedy to condemnation, even newspaper prophecy subjects. Anything but offending someone with Jesus.

bugkiller

psalms 91 · Apr 17, 2010

bugkiller said:
Sadly I don't see much validity of church these days. Three songs or courses sang over and over, give your money and hear something that can range from comedy to condemnation, even newspaper prophecy subjects. Anything but offending someone with Jesus.

bugkiller

Not my church, lol. Long sermons, music, no set time or order, just as the spirit leads. And yes,, I know many that look at people in churchs and say if thats a Christian then I dont want to be one and when some come in like the druggies, or prostitutes, and so on, the good folk look down their noses and tery to clean them up rather than letting God do a work in them.

Mathetes the kerux · Apr 17, 2010

MrPolo said:
Jesus did say that. However, He did not say all sins are of equal degrees. And as I just cited in the example with Pilate, Jesus gave an example of one sin "greater" than another.

I dont think He was speaking in the relation to condemnation tho. In regards to GOD one sin is enuff to condemn . . . but when speaking in more horizontal relationship (vs the vertical with God) there are sins which are "greater."

Mathetes the kerux · Apr 17, 2010

Frogster said:
Aaaaand where was the wrath.Adam?The old creation.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.

Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Soooooo..what about the new creation,does it need sanctification?

As you know,that is where by questionaire was headed.

So Matt..it says we are raised up as he was.Does he need sanctification? Does the new creation need sanctification?

Rom 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Nice talking to you,

Soooooo..what about the new creation,does it need sanctification?

Not internally no, but externally one still wrestles with the flesh which STILL yearns and wars for domination. Hence the doctrine of sanctification . . . the war between the flesh and the internal man.

Unfortunately the Hebrews 10 passage has that author speaking to those whose hearts have been sanctified by the sacrifice of Christ AS STILL REACHING AND PERSUING SANCTIFICATION. So either,
a. they are not in reality sanctified at all (which cannot be true cause he said that they were) and he is contradicting himself
or
b. there are at least 2 senses in which the term sanctification is used.

I prefer B.

Mathetes the kerux · Apr 17, 2010

bugkiller said:
I'll let ya have a second guess. Gotta admit it was a tuff question.

bugkiller

OOOOKKKK, then what was the cup in the garden oh rolling on the floor wise one?

Cause that is what He drank FOR US . . . what we are indeed saved from.

Mathetes the kerux · Apr 17, 2010

Frogster said:
That wikepedia quote does not sit right,because we were circumcised,when saved.It says put off.

Col 2:11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,

You know what dude.I like you ,don't take this personal..

But really the sanctification crowd,are really just stuck under law,seeing there flesh aroused,which convinces them the need to somehow hope tomorrow,they will be holier,failing to realize that they already are,if it were not for the law,bringing their consciences into a snare.

But really the sanctification crowd,are really just stuck under law,seeing there flesh aroused,which convinces them the need to somehow hope tomorrow,they will be holier,failing to realize that they already are,if it were not for the law,bringing their consciences into a snare.

Really, dear brother, I dont think u are getting the logical progression. There is no "stuck under the law" we kno that the only hope we have for winning the war of Romans 7 is the FACT of grace. That is not law brother . . . it is GRACE. We do not fight to justify ourselves . . . THAT would be law and stuck under it. We fight because OUR JOY IS IN THE PLEASURE OF OUR GOD . . . and He is pleased with the killing of the flesh and the obedience to the Spirit . .. not for justification . . . BUT FOR JOY. So, sorry, BUT, we are not stuck under law.

AND, it is the FACT that internally we ARE holy that makes the battle even winable . . . not that we will become more holy, but that we CAN win BECAUSE WE ARE JUSTIFIED. I still am not sure you are getting it . . . it is not about becoming MORE holy . . . in the sense of a degree more than we are at the moment of justification . . . it is about LETTING what is ALREADY holy INSIDE, OUT for the world to see.

Mathetes the kerux · Apr 17, 2010

bugkiller said:
The issues of life is not the process of sanctification. The issues of life happen whether or not you are a christian.

bugkiller

The issues of life happen whether or not you are a christian.

Surely, but that has nothing to do with the topic.

The issues of life is not the process of sanctification.

1. Sure it is . . . when what u are on the insided fails to be on the outside, then u are loosing the battle. Like getting angry at someone who cuts u off on the freeway, or for u mr Boondocks, , when ur dog poops on the floor or chews some of ur shoes . . . at that moment of anger, if u allow ur flesh to have sway, you yell or growl, maybe smack em in the snout out of frustration that u have to now clean the mess or buy something new . . . but where is your hope in that moment? Is it in the ability of a canine to sway the fruit of the Spirit in your life . . . or is it in Christ who will empower you to discipline the dog out of duty and control the anger?
2. Not according to Hebrews and Thessalonians. Sorry but they make it clear that sanctification is something to be arrived at . . . which is DIFFERENT from the sanctified once and for all heart of the believer.

Mathetes the kerux · Apr 17, 2010

bugkiller said:
I hear what you are saying. Just because that is talked about in theological circles doesn't give it validity. Jesus did not agree with the theology of his time on earth either. And they did not like Him one little itty bit. In fact they hated Him so much they finally contrived a way to get rid of Him. Didn't work, did it satan? What they did only caused them more trouble.

In life we go from diapers to training pants to big person undies but it is not sanctification. Growing into spiritual maturity is no different.

bugkiller

Unfortunately tho, that is what the author to Hebrews and Paul says.

Obviously there are two concepts of sanctification;
1. When our hearts are changed and we become SAINTS (holy ones)
2. The PROCESS that God wills in our day to day lives of the INNER reality of our SANCTIFIED hearts working itself OUT through the flesh (KILLING THE FLESH NOT SANCTIFYING IT) for the world to see

Mathetes the kerux · Apr 17, 2010

Frogster said:
Mathetes the kerux said:

No add oddons..
ok,we have totally covered adam,flesh,sin,old creation,old era..etc.

next question.

Do you believe that we are baptized into his death,risen with Christ,set free from sin,as he is,a new creation,his righteousness,under a reign of grace,not law,new creations where the old has passed away,where Christ lives in us,and we are not corrupt flesh..basically the total opposite of life under Adam,who we really are in Christ.?

Rom 6:10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.

Click to expand...

Do you believe that we are baptized into his death,risen with Christ

Click to expand...

Yes

set free from sin,

Click to expand...

From the power, yes

as he is,

Click to expand...

NO, we will not be completely as He is until He returns (when He returns we will be like Him)

a new creation,his righteousness,under a reign of grace,not law,new creations where the old has passed away,where Christ lives in us,

Click to expand...

Yes

and we are not corrupt flesh

Click to expand...

No, our flesh will always be corrupt until our bodies are translated or resurrected (there is nothing good within me, within my flesh that is)

basically the total opposite of life under Adam,who we really are in Christ.?

Click to expand...

Almost, we still have the flesh to wrestle with, but we are not bound to its will as we were, as you would say, "under Adam"

Sorry, but a simple "yes" or "no" will not suffice as you put in TOO many concepts a line . . .

But I tried a simple yes or no with each subsection . . .

Frogster · Apr 17, 2010

Mathetes the kerux said:
Really, dear brother, I dont think u are getting the logical progression. There is no "stuck under the law" we kno that the only hope we have for winning the war of Romans 7 is the FACT of grace. That is not law brother . . . it is GRACE. We do not fight to justify ourselves . . . THAT would be law and stuck under it. We fight because OUR JOY IS IN THE PLEASURE OF OUR GOD . . . and He is pleased with the killing of the flesh and the obedience to the Spirit . .. not for justification . . . BUT FOR JOY. So, sorry, BUT, we are not stuck under law.

AND, it is the FACT that internally we ARE holy that makes the battle even winable . . . not that we will become more holy, but that we CAN win BECAUSE WE ARE JUSTIFIED. I still am not sure you are getting it . . . it is not about becoming MORE holy . . . in the sense of a degree more than we are at the moment of justification . . . it is about LETTING what is ALREADY holy INSIDE, OUT for the world to see.

As far as..

10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

It says it..no?

Also..you have ducked my simple qustion.Is the new creation,or Adam sanctified? I don't see how either on can be,but I await your reply.

bugkiller · Apr 17, 2010

Mathetes the kerux said:
OOOOKKKK, then what was the cup in the garden oh rolling on the floor wise one?

Cause that is what He drank FOR US . . . what we are indeed saved from.

Would you like to try again?

bugkiller

Infused vs. Imputed

Decision Theology = Ex Opere Operato

Well-Known Member

Galatians is the best!

Woe those who call evil good + good evil. Is 5:20

Legend

Woe those who call evil good + good evil. Is 5:20

Well-Known Member

Legend

Galatians is the best!

Well-Known Member

Legend

Tales of a Twice Born Man

Tales of a Twice Born Man

Tales of a Twice Born Man

Tales of a Twice Born Man

Tales of a Twice Born Man

Tales of a Twice Born Man

Tales of a Twice Born Man

Galatians is the best!

Well-Known Member

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency