Infused vs. Imputed

Mathetes the kerux · Apr 13, 2010

Frogster said:
As far as the every day habit of the Christian...

Dude! the power of sin is the law,the law arouses sinful passions.You want true sanctification,that is already there? Then you just walk in the spirit.

Gal 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

Then how does sin effect people before the giving of the Decalogue (10 commandments)?

You want true sanctification,that is already there? Then you just walk in the spirit.

Gal 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh

AMEN! But is that an instantaneous thing! NO . . . it is a PROCESS . . . hence WALK. Walking by the Spirit is the path of sanctification . . . but it is not JUSTIFICATION . . . truly the only reason why we can even obey the Spirit to follow Him is because we have been justified and made holy INTERNALLY . . . so we WANT to do the right thing.

Frogster · Apr 13, 2010

Mathetes the kerux said:
? please clarify, thnx

And I am not making the connections with the rest of ur point . . . please clarify how the "age of adam" concept that u are refering to has to do with Romans 7. Thnx (I think I get it, but I want to make sure I do before I respond)

Hi.

Because we were all dead in Adam,now we are alive in Christ.To the degree we were dead in Him,we are now alive in Adam.it is the age of grace,not law arousing adam,as per 7.

rom 5;21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

So in the new creation,the new sphere,were are fully sanctified.Unless you can tell me how adam can be sanctified,or the new creation needs help?

We were raised up with him..Yes?

Frogster · Apr 13, 2010

Mathetes the kerux said:
Then how does sin effect people before the giving of the Decalogue (10 commandments)?

Adam sinned by breaking a command too.The mosaic law,the 10,were added to increase the trespass.Plus the dynamic of law is universal.

AMEN! But is that an instantaneous thing! NO . . . it is a PROCESS . . . hence WALK. Walking by the Spirit is the path of sanctification . . . but it is not JUSTIFICATION . . . truly the only reason why we can even obey the Spirit to follow Him is because we have been justified and made holy INTERNALLY . . . so we WANT to do the right thing.

Click to expand...

I understand it is an art form to walk in resurrected power,as paul said in phil 3.BUT!.Is the resurrected new man,in need of sanctification? Or is Adam?

Eph 4:24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

Click to expand...

Mathetes the kerux · Apr 13, 2010

Frogster said:
It says we have been made Holy.Yes?

There can be nothing else left .Yes?

Heb 10:18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.

It says we have been made Holy.Yes?

Indeed

There can be nothing else left .Yes?

Yeah there is nothing left . . . concerning the act of the effect of the sacrifice of Christ upon redeeming His people. This text has nothing to do with the day to day walk of the Christian . . . that is my point. Sanctification, as a realm of theology, deals with the day to day process of the believer's war with sin.

Hence:
1 Thess 4:1-8
a Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you excel still more. 2 For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus. 3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you. 7 For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification.
NASU

AND just for grins and giggles THE SAME AUTHOR/BOOK that u are positing from:

Heb 12:14
14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.
NASU

Here is the kicker, the same guy that is speaking of ur passage as having been a accomplished fact . . . is NOW encouraging the SAME PEOPLE that the FACT applies to (same audience) and SAYS TO THEM TO PERSUE IT.

There are only two ways of looking at this.
1. He means the same thing by the term agios and he doesnt consider the people that he is writing to to be Christians and so states the accomplished fact of holiness to those who are not yet a part of this holiness and he says "reach for it"
2. He means TWO DIFFERENT THINGS BY THE TERM AND THE MEANING IS SEEN IN THE CONTEXT OF THE USAGE (hermeneutics 101 context determines meaning). So that in one passage he is refering to the accomplished work of the Cross . . . ur chpt 10 passage . . . and here he is refering to the daily walk of the Christian.

When u look at 14 in context

Heb 12:12-16
12 Therefore, strengthen the hands that are weak and the knees that are feeble, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that the limb which is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed.
14 Pursue peace with all men, and thesanctification without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled; 16 that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal.
NASU

He is obviously not refering to deep theological forensic terms of the cross but of the day to day dealings of the Christian in their WALK OF LIFE. What to do with others, how to interact, how to help, what not to allow in ones heart, etc. these are mundane concepts.

TWO differen things brother.

Frogster · Apr 13, 2010

Mathetes the kerux said:
Indeed

Yeah there is nothing left . . . concerning the act of the effect of the sacrifice of Christ upon redeeming His people. This text has nothing to do with the day to day walk of the Christian . . . that is my point. Sanctification, as a realm of theology, deals with the day to day process of the believer's war with sin.

Hence:
1 Thess 4:1-8
a Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you excel still more. 2 For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus. 3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you. 7 For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification.
NASU

AND just for grins and giggles THE SAME AUTHOR/BOOK that u are positing from:

Heb 12:14
14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.
NASU

Here is the kicker, the same guy that is speaking of ur passage as having been a accomplished fact . . . is NOW encouraging the SAME PEOPLE that the FACT applies to (same audience) and SAYS TO THEM TO PERSUE IT.

There are only two ways of looking at this.
1. He means the same thing by the term agios and he doesnt consider the people that he is writing to to be Christians and so states the accomplished fact of holiness to those who are not yet a part of this holiness and he says "reach for it"
2. He means TWO DIFFERENT THINGS BY THE TERM AND THE MEANING IS SEEN IN THE CONTEXT OF THE USAGE (hermeneutics 101 context determines meaning). So that in one passage he is refering to the accomplished work of the Cross . . . ur chpt 10 passage . . . and here he is refering to the daily walk of the Christian.

When u look at 14 in context

Heb 12:12-16
12 Therefore, strengthen the hands that are weak and the knees that are feeble, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that the limb which is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed.
14 Pursue peace with all men, and thesanctification without which no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled; 16 that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal.
NASU

He is obviously not refering to deep theological forensic terms of the cross but of the day to day dealings of the Christian in their WALK OF LIFE. What to do with others, how to interact, how to help, what not to allow in ones heart, etc. these are mundane concepts.

TWO differen things brother.

Sorry,but your just talking about the flesh,yes,walk in the Spirit,and we wont fulfill the flesh.Yes?

Gal 5;16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

rom 8;13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Does it not say how to walk,as per your Thess verse? Walk...hmmm

Soooo,is not perfection found in the Spirit?

I mean ..who gets sanctified,Adam? The Spirit? I dunno..seesm like niether one.

Seems like if we are raised,it was like Jesus.

Rom 6;10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Was our old self crucifed? Rom 6:6.Or is it fixed up a bit?

MrPolo · Apr 13, 2010

Mathetes the kerux said:
Sure.

So, when this mortal coil is gone . . . any vestiges of sin are now gone too

What is your position then on the sins of Satan and the fallen angels who were and are ever non-physical and non-mortals?

bugkiller · Apr 13, 2010

Mathetes the kerux said:
Then how does sin effect people before the giving of the Decalogue (10 commandments)?

AMEN! But is that an instantaneous thing! NO . . . it is a PROCESS . . . hence WALK. Walking by the Spirit is the path of sanctification . . . but it is not JUSTIFICATION . . . truly the only reason why we can even obey the Spirit to follow Him is because we have been justified and made holy INTERNALLY . . . so we WANT to do the right thing.

Perfection of the flesh is not sanctification. I am not justifying or legalizing sin, either. I agree that there is a manifestation of the flesh concerning holiness (sanctification). It happens differently to different people. I have no clue why. There is no room for this reality in your argument. Does it create problems for me? you bet it interfers in my relationship with others. All I can really say is Thank God for what is manifest as acceptable behaviour in me. I am indeed fortunate.

bugkiller

Tangible · Apr 13, 2010

bugkiller - RE: sanctification, have you ever read up on Luther's doctrine of vocation? This is a great read.

bugkiller · Apr 13, 2010

Mathetes the kerux said:
Indeed

Yeah there is nothing left . . . concerning the act of the effect of the sacrifice of Christ upon redeeming His people. This text has nothing to do with the day to day walk of the Christian . . . that is my point. Sanctification, as a realm of theology, deals with the day to day process of the believer's war with sin.

Then why do you argue about sanctification if it has no real practical value and is nothing more than a theory?

Hence:
1 Thess 4:1-8
a Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you excel still more. 2 For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus. 3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you. 7 For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification.
NASU

Notice the little naughty word but? It changes the subject. here it changes from performance to a completed, what work. Again your text is poluted and down plays the word used in KJ it says called unto holiness.

AND just for grins and giggles THE SAME AUTHOR/BOOK that u are positing from:

Heb 12:14
14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.
NASU

I see says de blind man. Wonder why the 1611 KJ translators chose the word holiness over sanctification? The Greek word is translated either way. I think holiness implys righteousness where sanctification does not.

bugkiller

Click to expand...

Mathetes the kerux · Apr 13, 2010

MrPolo said:
What is your position then on the sins of Satan and the fallen angels who were and are ever non-physical and non-mortals?

I think that the scope of their sin is far greater, the nature of the sin being not merely to disobey but also to usurp. Having full access to God, unmediated, and our access virtually non-existent (so to speak), they knew the "good thing" that they had, Adam did not necessarily.

Sin for the human is bound to flesh, I think, in order to pass the corruption from one to another and precipitate the need for Christ. So I believe it is in the design.

BTW we are not mortal . . . we all will exist forever . . . just depends on where.

Mathetes the kerux · Apr 13, 2010

Frogster said:
Hi.

Because we were all dead in Adam,now we are alive in Christ.To the degree we were dead in Him,we are now alive in Adam.it is the age of grace,not law arousing adam,as per 7.

rom 5;21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

So in the new creation,the new sphere,were are fully sanctified.Unless you can tell me how adam can be sanctified,or the new creation needs help?

We were raised up with him..Yes?

So in the new creation,the new sphere,were are fully sanctified.Unless you can tell me how adam can be sanctified,or the new creation needs help?

K, I think I see the rub. Ur view is that in the New Covenant, we are fully sanctified. You call the Old Covenant the Age of Adam and the NEw Covenant the Age of Grace?

So, u believe we are fully sanctified, spirit soul and body?

U espouse "entire sanctification"? IOW, there should be no propensity to sin and actually the believer will never sin again?

thnx for ur patience

MTK

Mathetes the kerux · Apr 13, 2010

Frogster said:
Mathetes the kerux said:

Then how does sin effect people before the giving of the Decalogue (10 commandments)?

Adam sinned by breaking a command too.The mosaic law,the 10,were added to increase the trespass.Plus the dynamic of law is universal.

I understand it is an art form to walk in resurrected power,as paul said in phil 3.BUT!.Is the resurrected new man,in need of sanctification? Or is Adam?

Eph 4:24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

Click to expand...

Adam sinned by breaking a command too.The mosaic law,the 10,were added to increase the trespass.Plus the dynamic of law is universal.

Click to expand...

Sure Adam broke a command, and sure the dynamic of law is universal . . . got it. BUT the problem is the word NOMOS . . . LAW. 95% of the time, it is a peculiar word used in the sense of the formal commands handed down by God to Moses on Sinai, NOT the general principle of "law." So ur point is VERY hard to make. The addition of the Law was to remove doubt for the people of God and make PLAIN the unattainable "ness" of God's requisites. So the binding of the law is POST Adam.

Is the resurrected new man,in need of sanctification? Or is Adam?

Click to expand...

I think that u are putting up a false dichotomy. The new man still needs to work out all that has transpired INSIDE outward through the still unredeemed BODY. That is the POINT of Romans 7 . . . tho man is justified (5 and 6) he still has a war (7) which is the war between the redeemed man inside that wants to do good and the law of sin still at work in his bodily members, BUT (chpt 8) praise God for those who are in Christ there is no condemnation even for the failures of the war in chpt 7! They are still children of God by GRACE evidenced by the DESIRE to do good . . . even if they struggle to do it. So, tho the heart is made holy, new, the flesh is NOT. Sanctification (the theological category) is ever progressing it is the war with the flesh between the new man inside and the members of the body to die daily to self and allow the new man to reign until the flesh is put to rest in either death or the resurrection body of the believer.

Eph 4:24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness

Click to expand...

Amen . . . but this is WALK, not the instantaneous transformation of the heart!

Eph 4:17-24
So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; 19 and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness. 20 But you did not learn Christ in this way, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus, 22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, 23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
NASU

This is the war of Romans 7. The struggle with bringing the new man who is inside to conqueror the old which still remains in the members.

Click to expand...

Mathetes the kerux · Apr 13, 2010

Frogster said:
Sorry,but your just talking about the flesh,yes,walk in the Spirit,and we wont fulfill the flesh.Yes?

Gal 5;16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

rom 8;13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Does it not say how to walk,as per your Thess verse? Walk...hmmm

Soooo,is not perfection found in the Spirit?

I mean ..who gets sanctified,Adam? The Spirit? I dunno..seesm like niether one.

Seems like if we are raised,it was like Jesus.

Rom 6;10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Was our old self crucifed? Rom 6:6.Or is it fixed up a bit?

Sorry,but your just talking about the flesh,yes,walk in the Spirit,and we wont fulfill the flesh.Yes?

Amen. BUT IS THIS EASY? Simple, yes. Easy, NO, hence romans 7.

but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

EXACTLY! But the old man does not want to die . . . mortification is not easy . . . the internal law of the heart is DEAD so victory is POSSIBLE because the internal man is NEW . . . but the wrestling is REAL. In the end, sure, total victory, but there is a real war to be fought NOW.

THAT war is sanctification . . .

I mean ..who gets sanctified,Adam? The Spirit? I dunno..seesm like niether one.

AH HA, I think I see the issue here. The TERM sanctification sets u off because it makes u think that we are making more holy (what u call) Adam, or the old self. And this cannot be possible because the old self cannot be redeemed it must DIE. AND I AGREE. BUT THIS IS NOT WHAT IS MEANT IN THE FORMAL THEOLOGICAL USAGE OF THE TERM "SANCTIFICATION."

Seems to be a matter of terms.

So let me clarify.

Sanctification is NOT the making Holy of the flesh, or the old Adam, it IS the KILLING of the remains of Adam in our body, which has in view the END result of ENTIRE sanctification (total sanctification of the individual). Which is why it is called a PROCESS . . . perhaps this will clear things up.

Mathetes the kerux · Apr 13, 2010

bugkiller said:
Perfection of the flesh is not sanctification. I am not justifying or legalizing sin, either. I agree that there is a manifestation of the flesh concerning holiness (sanctification). It happens differently to different people. I have no clue why. There is no room for this reality in your argument. Does it create problems for me? you bet it interfers in my relationship with others. All I can really say is Thank God for what is manifest as acceptable behaviour in me. I am indeed fortunate.

bugkiller

Perfection of the flesh is not sanctification

TOTAL AGREEMENT. The flesh is to be killed not perfected.

I agree that there is a manifestation of the flesh concerning holiness (sanctification). It happens differently to different people. I have no clue why. There is no room for this reality in your argument.

Yes there is ALL the room for it. it is called mortification. The process whereby the action of sin (say anger) is killed and the reality of the new man who is in the heart is allowed to reign in the moment BECAUSE he already reigns in the heart. At that moment the flesh is denied and its power is broken as the anger is crucified. The holiness which is a reality in the heart is now made manifest in the world as the person follows the Spirit. But this process is never finished until the passing of the body or the coming of Christ and the translation of the body into the resurrected likeness of the body of Christ.

Does it create problems for me? you bet it interfers in my relationship with others. All I can really say is Thank God for what is manifest as acceptable behaviour in me. I am indeed fortunate

Amen, it is the grace of God which enables us to combat sin.

Read my "ah ha" moment above to frogster . . . perhaps it will help here too.

Frogster · Apr 13, 2010

Mathetes the kerux said:
K, I think I see the rub. Ur view is that in the New Covenant, we are fully sanctified. You call the Old Covenant the Age of Adam and the NEw Covenant the Age of Grace?

So, u believe we are fully sanctified, spirit soul and body?

U espouse "entire sanctification"? IOW, there should be no propensity to sin and actually the believer will never sin again?

thnx for ur patience

MTK

I believe that the more we walk in the new man,resurrected with Christ,that is the separation.

2 questionds you have avoided..

Does it say we were sanctified once for all?

Heb10:10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

And,in you opinion..who gets sanctified? Adam,or the new man raised with Christ,created in righteousness and true holiness?

Did he create a new mankind,as the second Adam or not?

Thanks.

Reminder..

Gal 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

Frogster · Apr 13, 2010

Mathetes the kerux said:
Frogster said:

Mathetes the kerux said:

Then how does sin effect people before the giving of the Decalogue (10 commandments)?

Sure Adam broke a command, and sure the dynamic of law is universal . . . got it. BUT the problem is the word NOMOS . . . LAW. 95% of the time, it is a peculiar word used in the sense of the formal commands handed down by God to Moses on Sinai, NOT the general principle of "law." So ur point is VERY hard to make. The addition of the Law was to remove doubt for the people of God and make PLAIN the unattainable "ness" of God's requisites. So the binding of the law is POST Adam.

I think that u are putting up a false dichotomy. The new man still needs to work out all that has transpired INSIDE outward through the still unredeemed BODY. That is the POINT of Romans 7 . . . tho man is justified (5 and 6) he still has a war (7) which is the war between the redeemed man inside that wants to do good and the law of sin still at work in his bodily members, BUT (chpt 8) praise God for those who are in Christ there is no condemnation even for the failures of the war in chpt 7! They are still children of God by GRACE evidenced by the DESIRE to do good . . . even if they struggle to do it. So, tho the heart is made holy, new, the flesh is NOT. Sanctification (the theological category) is ever progressing it is the war with the flesh between the new man inside and the members of the body to die daily to self and allow the new man to reign until the flesh is put to rest in either death or the resurrection body of the believer.

Amen . . . but this is WALK, not the instantaneous transformation of the heart!

Eph 4:17-24
So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; 19 and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness. 20 But you did not learn Christ in this way, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus, 22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, 23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
NASU

This is the war of Romans 7. The struggle with bringing the new man who is inside to conqueror the old which still remains in the members.

Click to expand...

In all fairness..all this post shows is a struggle of flesh and Spirit..Rom 7.Sure we got 2 natures we carry..But again,it forces me to ask..

Who gets sanctified,Adam,or the new creation God made?

As far as nomos,it really does not matter,Moses,or universal,same principle,the great arouser of the flesh..because even the gentile law,Rom 2;14-15 was from God..where else?

Again,,being set apart from flesh is just fine..

Click to expand...

Frogster · Apr 13, 2010

Mathetes the kerux said:
TOTAL AGREEMENT. The flesh is to be killed not perfected.

Yes there is ALL the room for it. it is called mortification. The process whereby the action of sin (say anger) is killed and the reality of the new man who is in the heart is allowed to reign in the moment BECAUSE he already reigns in the heart. At that moment the flesh is denied and its power is broken as the anger is crucified. The holiness which is a reality in the heart is now made manifest in the world as the person follows the Spirit. But this process is never finished until the passing of the body or the coming of Christ and the translation of the body into the resurrected likeness of the body of Christ.

Did you ever realize the one way a man cannot kill himself is to crucify himself? Reckon it,is all we can do,as per Rom 6:11.We were crucified with Him,see it as done.

Amen, it is the grace of God which enables us to combat sin.

Combat sin? Now who is in 7?

Read my "ah ha" moment above to frogster . . . perhaps it will help here too.

Frogster · Apr 13, 2010

Mathetes the kerux said:
Amen. BUT IS THIS EASY? Simple, yes. Easy, NO, hence romans 7.

EXACTLY! But the old man does not want to die . . . mortification is not easy . . . the internal law of the heart is DEAD so victory is POSSIBLE because the internal man is NEW . . . but the wrestling is REAL. In the end, sure, total victory, but there is a real war to be fought NOW.

THAT war is sanctification . . .

AH HA, I think I see the issue here. The TERM sanctification sets u off because it makes u think that we are making more holy (what u call) Adam, or the old self. And this cannot be possible because the old self cannot be redeemed it must DIE. AND I AGREE. BUT THIS IS NOT WHAT IS MEANT IN THE FORMAL THEOLOGICAL USAGE OF THE TERM "SANCTIFICATION."

Seems to be a matter of terms.

So let me clarify.

Sanctification is NOT the making Holy of the flesh, or the old Adam, it IS the KILLING of the remains of Adam in our body, which has in view the END result of ENTIRE sanctification (total sanctification of the individual). Which is why it is called a PROCESS . . . perhaps this will clear things up.

ok,,i just read this one..lol..so many posts.I am glad you agree we cant sanctify adam,or the new man.

Mathetes the kerux · Apr 13, 2010

Frogster said:
ok,,i just read this one..lol..so many posts.I am glad you agree we cant sanctify adam,or the new man.

So we are on the same page now?

Mathetes the kerux · Apr 13, 2010

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']

bugkiller said:
Then why do you argue about sanctification if it has no real practical value and is nothing more than a theory?Notice the little naughty word [/FONT]

bugkiller said:
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']but[/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']? It changes the subject. here it changes from performance to a completed, what work. Again your text is poluted and down plays the word used in KJ it says called unto holiness.[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']

[/FONT]

Click to expand...

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']AND just for grins and giggles THE SAME AUTHOR/BOOK that u are positing from:[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Heb 12:14[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']NASU

I see says de blind man. Wonder why the 1611 KJ translators chose the word holiness over sanctification? The Greek word is translated either way. I think holiness implys righteousness where sanctification does not.[/FONT]

Click to expand...

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']bugkiller[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']

Click to expand...

[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/FONT]
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Then why do you argue about sanctification if it has no real practical value and is nothing more than a theory?

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[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']On the contrary it has everything to do with practice. Read what I said again. [/FONT]
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Sanctification, as a realm of theology, [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']deals with the day to day process of the believer's war with sin[/FONT].

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?Notice the little naughty word [/FONT]

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[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']but[/FONT][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']? It changes the subject. here it changes from performance to a completed, what work.

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[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Uh, no. In greek it is [/FONT]
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[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']ου γαρ εκαλεσεν ημας ο θεος επι ακαθαρσια [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']αλλ[/FONT] εν αγιασμω[/FONT]
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[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']the "all" being the shorter version of alla or allon and is simply a conjunctive. All it does is compare the akatharsia to the agiasmo. He has not called us "unto uncleaness but unto holiness" is the word for word translation. Completed or non completed is not even an issue. The sheer context of future actions that the passage refers to (actions having not yet happened because he is telling them HOW to act WHEN this happens) contextually make ur postion impossible.[/FONT]
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I see says de blind man. Wonder why the 1611 KJ translators chose the word holiness over sanctification? The Greek word is translated either way. I think holiness implys righteousness where sanctification does not.

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[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Etymologically they are the same word brother. The reason why they NASB chose to use a different word is because of the tense and case of the words used and the context within which they are used. Just look at the context . . . he is speaking of something to aim for, not something already completed. It is what it is.[/FONT]

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Infused vs. Imputed

Tales of a Twice Born Man

Galatians is the best!

Galatians is the best!

Tales of a Twice Born Man

Galatians is the best!

Woe those who call evil good + good evil. Is 5:20

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Decision Theology = Ex Opere Operato

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Tales of a Twice Born Man

Tales of a Twice Born Man

Tales of a Twice Born Man

Tales of a Twice Born Man

Tales of a Twice Born Man

Galatians is the best!

Galatians is the best!

Galatians is the best!

Galatians is the best!

Tales of a Twice Born Man

Tales of a Twice Born Man

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