Infinite Punishment for Finite Crimes

[abacabb3]

I am not sure the following is real insightful, or if I am the first guy to even come up with it, but it has been really useful for me when explaining why men are under God's just condemnation.

I have been asked the question in several different contexts (the "unfairness" of eternal damnation, why God can't forgive "minor sins," etc) as to why man must be punished for his sin.

The example I usually give is that God, to be good has to be just and punish sin. They will say, "Fine, but He can't over-compensate for it that's just arbitrary and petty."

Then I respond against, "True, if you sinned against me, your punishment should be equivalent to the way you have wronged me, not a million times greater."

They will agree. Then I continue, "So, if you punch me in the face, you might get arrested (if that), but you won't actually go to jail for it.

"However, if you punch someone more important in the face, let's say the President, you will go to jail for it. Is that unfair?"

They will respond "no."

I continue, "So, then it is not the crime that determines the punishment, but who the crime was perpetrated against. If you commit a finite crime against a finite being, you receive a finite punishment in proportion tot he degree who you inflicted the wrong against. If you commit a finite crime against an infinite being, the punishment to be fair must be infinite.

"This is exactly why God laid upon the iniquities of the whole world, not on a finite being like an animal, but on Himself. Jesus Christ, God's only Son, is infinitely precious because He is God, and only He can absorb our infinite punishment. To have your sins hidden in Christ, place your trust in Him for your salvation and Him alone."


Let me know what you guys think.

 

[BryanW92]

That makes sense. It goes along with the Evangelism thread. We, as Americans, tend to think of the world as a place of democracy, our sense of fairness makes "it isn't what you know, but who you know" and "it isn't what you did, but who you did it to" seem wrong.

But, the truth is that we are the subjects of a royal God. There is no democracy. He has the power of infinite punishment and reward and that's all there is to it. People are appointed over you and that's just how it is.

Our sense of democracy and individuality is the greatest impediment to understanding our place in God's realm because it makes us want to elevate ourselves to a place of equality with God and those whom he has raised up above us.

 

[hedrick]

I disagree with this argument. It was obviously true during the medieval period, but having offenses depend upon the prestige of the victim is an abuse of the law in the US. The president is a special case, because so many people are after him that we have to take special care. But if he's in an informal situation and a friend punches him, I think basic Western legal principles say that this is no more serious than with any other citizen.

It's obvious why something has to be done about evil. We don't want the kinds of abuse we see on earth to continue in heaven. If there's someone who is unwilling to repent, and to accept help from God to fix him, he can't be made safe. That's the basic concept of judgement in the OT: righting wrong, and defeating God's enemies. But not taking revenge for violations of God's prestige.

 

[abacabb3]

If we go way back to Hammurabbi's Code, we see that the punishment being greater for wronging people in higher social strata. In the present day, abusing the "defenseless" such as children or the elderly carries a greater punishment than inflicting an identical form of abuse on an able bodied man.

The most extreme example of a disparity in justice in the present day is in the punishing of hate crimes. If I burn down someone's house because I am depraved in my sin, I am an arsonist. State and local laws will throw me in jail for X years. If I burn someone's house because I am depraved in my sin, but they are a different ethnicity and specifically not European in background, it is a "hate crime." It does not matter if in the former case the home owner was a poor old woman on social security and in the latter case the home owner was a 36 year old successful businessman. State, local, and now federal laws come into play and I am thrown into jail for X+Y years.

Now, we can pursue pie in the sky arguments whether any of these increased punishments for any of these things are right, but I do not think that's useful. The point is, deep down, it does not conflict with our sense of justice to increase the measure of punishment in proportion to who was sinned against. This was the case back in ancient Babylon and it continues to be in different ways right into the present day. So, to sin against an infinite, all loving, all righteous, all powerful God and have it carry the same punishment of sinning against an average guy just does not seem to be "fair" by anyone's measure, ever, regardless of what time and place they are from. This sense of justice transcends historical, social, and political boundaries and I believe is ingrained in us because eternity has been put into our hearts.

 

[Metal Minister]

I am not sure the following is real insightful, or if I am the first guy to even come up with it, but it has been really useful for me when explaining why men are under God's just condemnation.

I have been asked the question in several different contexts (the "unfairness" of eternal damnation, why God can't forgive "minor sins," etc) as to why man must be punished for his sin.

The example I usually give is that God, to be good has to be just and punish sin. They will say, "Fine, but He can't over-compensate for it that's just arbitrary and petty."

Then I respond against, "True, if you sinned against me, your punishment should be equivalent to the way you have wronged me, not a million times greater."

They will agree. Then I continue, "So, if you punch me in the face, you might get arrested (if that), but you won't actually go to jail for it.

"However, if you punch someone more important in the face, let's say the President, you will go to jail for it. Is that unfair?"

They will respond "no."

I continue, "So, then it is not the crime that determines the punishment, but who the crime was perpetrated against. If you commit a finite crime against a finite being, you receive a finite punishment in proportion tot he degree who you inflicted the wrong against. If you commit a finite crime against an infinite being, the punishment to be fair must be infinite.

"This is exactly why God laid upon the iniquities of the whole world, not on a finite being like an animal, but on Himself. Jesus Christ, God's only Son, is infinitely precious because He is God, and only He can absorb our infinite punishment. To have your sins hidden in Christ, place your trust in Him for your salvation and Him alone."

Let me know what you guys think.

Excellent! I've used that same demonstration myself more than once!

 

[JLR1300]

If the President was out in the public shaking hands and kissing babies and He picked up a baby and the baby was swinging his arms around and accidentally punched the President, most people would not think that the baby should be punished no matter how valuable the President is. The baby is extremely ignorant of the President's value. On the other hand if an 11 year old boy punched the president we would want to punish the boy but probably would not put him in jail because he understands more about the value of the President but not fully.

If a 45 year old Lawyer punched the president we would want to send him to jail. Why? because He is old enough and educated enough to know the importance and value of a President. So the length and degree of punishment isn't only about how important and valuable a being is who is offended, but is also about the how much knowledge and understanding the offender has of the value and importance of the one offended.

If one knows nothing of God whatsoever the punishment would logically be either none or light for an offence against Him. If one knows a little, but not much, about God... the punishment would be more ...but not limitless. If one knows everything there is to know about God then the punishment for offending an infinitely valuable being would be infinite punishment. So if an all knowing Angel offended God He should be punished infinitely. Of course, there isn't an all knowing Angel.... and man's knowledge of God isn't infinite either... Someone as intelligent as Einstein probably doesn't comprehend even 1% of God's real value.

So I am not here to argue for conditional immortality (annihilation) because the board doesn't allow that... but I am just saying that the importance of the One being offended isn't the only consideration. The comprehension of the offender must also play into the issue.

Jesus said that the one who knew His master's will and didn't do it will be beaten with many stripes whereas the one who didn't know His will will be beaten with few. So knowledge must be taken into account. Also notice that the words many and few deal with quantity or number not quality or degree. In the parable the punishment is not about how hard or soft forever... it is about how short or long based on number (whether few or many) few or many are both limited.... everyone (in the parable) gets a limited number of stripes... no one gets infinite... because no one had unlimited understanding of the Master and His value and His will.

I just wanted to show that our quick little answers to people about why God punishes people for eternity probably need a little more thought other than just to give them a math lesson that to offend and infinite being deserves an infinite punishment.
Thanks and God bless.

 

[BryanW92]

Jesus said that the one who knew His master's will and didn't do it will be beaten with many stripes whereas the one who didn't know His will will be beaten with few. So knowledge must be taken into account. Also notice that the words many and few deal with quantity or number not quality or degree. In the parable the punishment is not about how hard or soft forever... it is about how short or long based on number (whether few or many) few or many are both limited.... everyone (in the parable) gets a limited number of stripes... no one gets infinite... because no one had unlimited understanding of the Master and His value and His will.

I just wanted to show that our quick little answers to people about why God punishes people for eternity probably need a little more thought other than just to give them a math lesson that to offend and infinite being deserves an infinite punishment.
Thanks and God bless.

At the time of Jesus, being beaten with many stripes was a lot more than a mere whipping. The Roman scourge was not a device of only temporal pain. It was multiple leather cords with bits of metal woven into the end of each. On the whipping stroke, the metal tore into the skin and muscle. On the draw stroke, they ripped that skin and muscle out.

A person did not survive a scourging without permanent damage. The number of lashes given was more of a decision for whether the person being lashed was supposed to die or not, or how crippled their upper body would be if they survived.

 

[JLR1300]

Yes, there are lots of possible interpretations for many of the parables.... have fun.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

I am not sure the following is real insightful, or if I am the first guy to even come up with it, but it has been really useful for me when explaining why men are under God's just condemnation.

I have been asked the question in several different contexts (the "unfairness" of eternal damnation, why God can't forgive "minor sins," etc) as to why man must be punished for his sin.

The example I usually give is that God, to be good has to be just and punish sin. They will say, "Fine, but He can't over-compensate for it that's just arbitrary and petty."

Then I respond against, "True, if you sinned against me, your punishment should be equivalent to the way you have wronged me, not a million times greater."

They will agree. Then I continue, "So, if you punch me in the face, you might get arrested (if that), but you won't actually go to jail for it.

"However, if you punch someone more important in the face, let's say the President, you will go to jail for it. Is that unfair?"

They will respond "no."

I continue, "So, then it is not the crime that determines the punishment, but who the crime was perpetrated against. If you commit a finite crime against a finite being, you receive a finite punishment in proportion tot he degree who you inflicted the wrong against. If you commit a finite crime against an infinite being, the punishment to be fair must be infinite.

"This is exactly why God laid upon the iniquities of the whole world, not on a finite being like an animal, but on Himself. Jesus Christ, God's only Son, is infinitely precious because He is God, and only He can absorb our infinite punishment. To have your sins hidden in Christ, place your trust in Him for your salvation and Him alone."


Let me know what you guys think.

If you came up with this yourself then well done sir!

This reasoning goes back to the great preacher and theologian Jonathan Edwards, and also taught by modern Reformed preachers like John Piper.

Edwards on the subject:

". . . it is not inconsistent with the justice of God to inflict an eternal punishment. To evince this, I shall use only one argument, viz. that sin is heinous enough to deserve such a punishment, and such a punishment is no more than proportionable to the evil or demerit of sin. If the evil of sin be infinite, as the punishment is, then it is manifest that the punishment is no more than proportionable to the sin punished, and is no more than sin deserves. And if the obligation to love, honor, and obey God be infinite, then sin, which is the violation of this obligation, is a violation of infinite obligation, and so is an infinite evil. Again, if God be infinitely worthy of love, honor, and obedience, then our obligation to love, and honor, and obey him is infinitely great. – So that God being infinitely glorious, or infinitely worthy of our love, honor, and obedience, our obligation to love, honor, and obey him (and so to avoid all sin) is infinitely great. Again, our obligation to love, honor, and obey God being infinitely great, sin is the violation of infinite obligation, and so is an infinite evil. Once more, sin being an infinite evil, deserves an infinite punishment. An infinite punishment is no more than it deserves. Therefore such punishment is just, which was the thing to be proved. There is no evading the force of this reasoning, but by denying that God, the sovereign of the universe, is infinitely glorious, which I presume none of my hearers will venture to do."

 

[abacabb3]

"And if the obligation to love, honor, and obey God be infinite, then sin, which is the violation of this obligation, is a violation of infinite obligation, and so is an infinite evil"

Amen!!!

Yes, I did come up with it, but as you showed here, hardly the first to understand its formulation.

 

[DanielRB]

I would also add this to the OP: if one is in hell and continuously sinning there--hating God for His justice and judgment--is not the sin lasting forever? Therefore, how can the punishment NOT last forever?

Some might argue that those in hell will be sorry for the sin that sent them there. Does that mean that suddenly, in hell, the unregenerate sinner who hates God (as Paul talks about in Romans 1:30 as "haters of God") suddenly is spiritually regenerate and begins to love God? Such a view is madness.

No, the unregenerate are in hell, hating God for eternity--so hell is the proper abode for them, for all eternity.

 

[abacabb3]

I would also add this to the OP: if one is in hell and continuously sinning there--hating God for His justice and judgment--is not the sin lasting forever? Therefore, how can the punishment NOT last forever?

Some might argue that those in hell will be sorry for the sin that sent them there. Does that mean that suddenly, in hell, the unregenerate sinner who hates God (as Paul talks about in Romans 1:30 as "haters of God") suddenly is spiritually regenerate and begins to love God? Such a view is madness.

No, the unregenerate are in hell, hating God for eternity--so hell is the proper abode for them, for all eternity.

Terrifying thought to hate God that much, and I can't help but think of my own sin knowing that if I were outside the grace of God and there I would hate Him too.

 

[Metal Minister]

Terrifying thought to hate God that much, and I can't help but think of my own sin knowing that if I were outside the grace of God and there I would hate Him too.

The most terrifying verse of the bible: Matthew 7:23
And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’