Infanticide

[belladonic-haze]

I was just in the Politics forum and saw a question on abortion. I am actually rather interested in this because I find my view does not easily fit in with what I am used to hearing. I think this will be an interesting discussion.

I am pro-abortion. In fact, if post-natal abortion (infanticide) were an issue, I would be pro that also (up to some reasonable age... perhaps 6 months or so).

How do I defend this? I believe we have laws against murder because most reasonable people do not wish to be murdered. Furthermore, it is somewhat detrimental to society if people were to go around killing people all the time. Indeed, we would all live in fear of our neighbor in that case.

However, my view of what makes a person is rather limited. To me, a person is a developed and functioning member of society. To clarify, personhood, to me, is something that is obtained, not granted by virtue of conception (I do not have high standards for this. I do not use this thinking to discriminate against functioning individuals over the age of 6 months).

From my understanding of developmental biology, a child's brain continues to develop for many years, not reaching a computational level comparable to an adult until about the age of 12. Indeed, a child is born with a large brain (in fact, humans have far more neurons at birth than they do as an adult), but it lacks the internal structure of adults. The neuronal connections necessary to be capable of the levels of thought we consider "human" are developed slowly over time. Only the most basic instincts are present at birth. To me, it is an "animal" until it grows up a little (and clearly, as a meat-eater, I have no qualms with killing animals).

Therefore, I do not consider very small children and fetuses to be a "person" by my formal definition, though they may be considered such strictly. I do not think they are developed enough to know what they are missing, nor do I think they are intelligent enough to understand the difference between life and death. Since I do not believe in hell, I do not think I am damning them to an afterlife of torment. When killed, they simply no longer exist. I find this preferable to committing them to a life where they are neither cared for nor wanted.

I suppose similar logic may be used to rationalize the "mercy killing" of the extremely mentally disabled. I do not, however, advocate indiscriminately killing handicapped people and such. My thoughts on this are arbitrary (like all law and philosophy), but as such, they have arbitrary limits which I have (hopefully) clearly defined.



I realize this will be unpopular, but I am interested in hearing what y'all have to say. In particular, I think the "pro-choice" crowd should give some interesting feedback.

Oh, by the way, don't any of your pro-lifers go thinking that this is the generally accepted view for the "pro-choice" movement. I know I'm fringe. Don't let me hurt your view of them. They are likely more sane than I.

So, according to your theory you are just human for what.....9 years? You really need to go back to school and develop that brain further...

No matter if a child has no developed brain (full grown at the age of two years old...not twelve)....it has feelings. A human has self awareness at the age of 4 years old. They recognize themselves in the mirror (this is of course different for every individual.

But pain is felt by even the most undeveloped brain. I can understand why someone stops treatment of a severly handicapped child, but killing it? There are ethics involved...and who is going to do it? You? Do you inject a innocent baby with some poison, or lay it on the electric chair? Is a life less worth because it is less evolved mentally? Who decides what the border is here? Why let one child live and kill the other one.

I have worked in a prenatal and postnatal diagnostic reserach lab. Yes, in some cases abortion was the most humane thing to do....before a certain timeframe....I believe a 21 week old fetus may be legally aborted. I know what horrific genetic disorders a child can have....

BUT if the parent decides against abortion it is the parent's right to do so...whatever their reason is (religion or mother nature or....). But where you draw the line? What fetus has the right to live and what fetus must die? because that is what you say. Tell a mother of a severly handicapped child that it must die. That mother will use any mean necessary to protect her child. She doesn't love her child less because it is not healthy.....

They said to my parents that I would die. If your idea was used at that time.....and my parents would not have seen another way out.....I would not sit here. They predicted I had only one day of life before me......well, they were wrong. But even then YOU do NOT have the right to take even that one day I would be with my parents away from them...

Okay, I am slowly going to explode here....so I stop.....before I say horrible things ....

 

[kopilo]

Dare I say it; plants have feelings too, animals also have brains.
The difference is that humans have souls but that is subjective to belief.

 

[xAtheistx]

I'm not sure what you are saying. Do you hold a funeral when you skin your knee?

Living cells die-- this makes me sad. I'm not a big fan of funerals, but I would only hold one for when people die in their entirities... every cell of their body. For a zygote, that is clearly only one cell.

if every cell in the clump of cells that was present X weeks into the pregnancy died (thus ceasing the pregnancy)... yes, that would be worthy of a funeral... because what is a human, but a clump of organized, specialized cells?

A better analogy would be, should a woman have a funeral everytime she has a period?

That's an ovum. I don't know if you had Health/Sex Ed in high school, but...

An ovum is unfertilized, it only has 23 chromosomes. The sperm provides the other 23... 23+23 = 46 = living human.

 

[xAtheistx]

I see so many reasons people abort babies, or want abortions... there's a one word solution to every problem: you won't have to care for its disabilities, support it, have its constant reminder of your rape, etc...

The word is adoption.

 

[kopilo]

An ovum is unfertilized, it only has 23 chromosomes. The sperm provides the other 23... 23+23 = 46 = living human.

so when it comes down to what makes a human is a biological mathematical equasion... nice...

 

[kopilo]

I see so many reasons people abort babies, or want abortions... there's a one word solution to every problem: you won't have to care for its disabilities, support it, have its constant reminder of your rape, etc...

The word is adoption.

the issue with adoption is overpopulation, also you need to have/find the people who will take care of the child.. well one would hope and in the adoption market I don't think the demand is greater then the supply at this point in time.

Not to mention the emotional attachment the mother has to the child from the birth itself, may be more hazadous to her mental health then an early abortion..

 

[xAtheistx]

so when it comes down to what makes a human is a biological mathematical equasion... nice...

It's more of a point on the timeline than an equation... but yes, in case you didn't know, that's how you got your 46 chromosomes that are currently in every cell of your body. A biological equation involving mommy and daddy loving eachother very much.

the issue with adoption is overpopulation, also you need to have/find the people who will take care of the child.. well one would hope and in the adoption market I don't think the demand is greater then the supply at this point in time.

Not to mention the emotional attachment the mother has to the child from the birth itself, may be more hazadous to her mental health then an abortion..

I've considered overpopulation. I'm currently undecided about the value of human life in general... if I should give up the battle against abortion and start supporting the DP to an extreme extent (like, robbing a store) or fight fiercely to keep our world overpopulated (via supporting "feed the hungry" and anti-abortion charities...) until we doom ourselves... but I figure my personal decision isn't going to affect the world at all, so it's a side issue in my mind.

Point: An aborted baby deserves to live more than a middle aged murdered person (they've had their chance) though... so I support murder more than abortion.

If there's an "emotional attatchment" then you can always keep it... I can't imagine knowing you killed your own child is better than knowing your child is alive somewhere in the world without you.

By the way, there are thousands of infertile parents who are looking for children to call their own... and even if there wasn't, life in an orphanage is better than no life at all.

 

[kopilo]

It's more of a point on the timeline than an equation... but yes, in case you didn't know, that's how you got your 46 chromosomes that are currently in every cell of your body. A biological equation involving mommy and daddy loving eachother very much.

I agree on the 46 chromosomes.. the last part is questionable and stated as if you were talking to a child..

I've considered overpopulation. I'm currently undecided about the value of human life in general... an aborted baby deserves to live more than a middle aged murdered person (they've had their chance) though... so I support murder more than abortion.

If you are middle aged, then fair enough, if you have not yet reached middle age, I wonder if your thoughts will change on the subject of murder by then.

If there's an "emotional attatchment" then you can always keep it... I can't imagine knowing you killed your own child is better than knowing your child is alive somewhere in the world without you.

There is an emotional attachment, maybe you need to go vist a farm when they take veal off to the slaughter house, especially a farm which never lets the cow see their young. Yes cows and humans are different.. but emotions seem to be rather the same. I would say that the mother also personally has to feel that there is not a child inside her, for abotion not to have a detramental effect, but not working in the field I do not know.

By the way, there are thousands of infertile parents who are looking for children to call their own... and even if there wasn't, life in an orphanage is better than no life at all.

There are thousand of parents but how many abadoned children is unknown, so what do people do with a child they do not want and can not find/or have acess to an orphanage?

 

[HappyHousewife]

Besides, I am neither the first nor will I be the last person to ever mess up what I am trying to say on a message board. Now that I have found the correct wording that I was looking for, I am leaving it at that.

You know, a simple "what I said didn't come out right" would have been satisfactory. Blaming me for your lack of clarity and making snide comments about how it's my fault you weren't clear is not only completely unproductive, but it is bad behavior that further degrades your argument. It doesn't make you look smarter, it doesn't lend more weight to your point, and it only causes me to lose respect for your belief because I tend to think if your belief had any merit then you could express it in an adult manner without attacking people who are confused by your less than clear analogies and method of expressing yourself.

At this point, I think it's best to just move on because any sort of productive discission just isn't happening here.

 

[xAtheistx]

There is an emotional attachment, maybe you need to go vist a farm when they take veal off to the slaughter house, especially a farm which never lets the cow see their young.

I'm a vegetarian for similar reasons to why I would NOT want to go visit a farm when they take veal off to the slaughter house.

There are thousand of parents but how many abadoned children is unknown, so what do people do with a child they do not want and can not find/or have acess to an orphanage?

There are always arrangements that can be made. (I don't know any procedure, if this was the case for a friend, I'd suggest they go to the local hospital... they've probably got a process that they go through. Isn't it worth 30 minutes of your time to ensure the baby you've been nurturing for 9 months inside your body gets a decent home?

 

[HappyHousewife]

You put this so much better than I possibly could have. This is a very delicate issue, and I am just a bull in a china shop.

Don't worry, I understand what you were saying, and I can't say that after you further clarified your position that I entirely disagree with you.

 

[kopilo]

I'm a vegetarian for similar reasons to why I would NOT want to go visit a farm when they take veal off to the slaughter house.

I'm not ruling out the possibility, but I thought that was a good example of why there may be no "if" for emotional attachment.

There are always arrangements that can be made. (I don't know any procedure, if this was the case for a friend, I'd suggest they go to the local hospital... they've probably got a process that they go through. Isn't it worth 30 minutes of your time to ensure the baby you've been nurturing for 9 months inside your body gets a decent home?

I was meaning more like a thrid world country situation....

But then again an abortion clinc in a third world country would be proberly even rarer.

 

[xAtheistx]

I was meaning more like a thrid world country situation....

An astonishing number of third world country children die, regardless of their loving parents...

The answer to that is to tell 'em all to stop ****ing.

 

[kopilo]

An astonishing number of third world country children die, regardless of their loving parents...

The answer to that is to tell 'em all to stop ****ing.

I did make an edit on the post you quoted from, because it was another thought that I thought might be important..

In thrid world countries some people may have children for the pure fact of support in their old age..

 

[xAtheistx]

an abortion clinc in a third world country would be proberly even rarer.

Doesn't mean it doesn't happen...

 

[kopilo]

Doesn't mean it doesn't happen...

of course but that means the possibility is most likely lower.

 

[HappyHousewife]

But then again an abortion clinc in a third world country would be proberly even rarer.

It is not uncommon or hard to get abortions in places like Africa. Agencies like UNICEF provide help in family planning in third world countries. If you follow politics at all, you know a large reason Bush withdrew aid to places like Africa was because agencies were using the money to promote sex education, make family planning options available, and so on. In third world countries where maternal mortality, poverty, starvation, and disease is so high, there are a great number of agencies and organizations who help relieve this problem by assisting women in terminating pregnancies.

 

[ApocryphaNow]

I think my thoughts on this boil down to the fact that I would like to see more leeway with this issue. I don't think the government should be intimately involved in health and well-being affairs for the sake of morality, regardless of how strongly some folks feel. I do not trust them to make the right choices by going with knee-jerk gut instincts; thinking with the heart and not the head. There are a lot of reasons I brought this topic up, but one of them was to force discussion on (what I see as) the irrational mysticism with which so many of us approach the topic of reproduction.

 

[belladonic-haze]

I think my thoughts on this boil down to the fact that I would like to see more leeway with this issue. I don't think the government should be intimately involved in health and well-being affairs for the sake of morality, regardless of how strongly some folks feel. I do not trust them to make the right choices by going with knee-jerk gut instincts; thinking with the heart and not the head. There are a lot of reasons I brought this topic up, but one of them was to force discussion on (what I see as) the irrational mysticism with which so many of us approach the topic of reproduction.

Irrational? Me? NEVER!!!

 

[Jacob4Jesus]

You know, a simple "what I said didn't come out right" would have been satisfactory. Blaming me for your lack of clarity and making snide comments about how it's my fault you weren't clear is not only completely unproductive, but it is bad behavior that further degrades your argument. It doesn't make you look smarter, it doesn't lend more weight to your point, and it only causes me to lose respect for your belief because I tend to think if your belief had any merit then you could express it in an adult manner without attacking people who are confused by your less than clear analogies and method of expressing yourself.

At this point, I think it's best to just move on because any sort of productive discission just isn't happening here.

I apologize if I was 'snide' with you. I wasn't intending to be.

And I have moved on past this conversation a long time ago.