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You say baptism is leading to salvation. can you please explain further in reference to an infant?
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You say baptism is leading to salvation. can you please explain further in reference to an infant?Baptism is salvific (1 Peter 3:21), as it is new birth from God (John 3:5, Titus 3:5) and all else which Scripture says of it.
The reason why we devote ourselves, as the Church, to the baptized, is because this Christian life is lived together in Christ, not alone. The baptized has become part of us, and we part of them; because we are--all together--the one new man which is in Christ Jesus (Ephesians 2:14-16).
-CryptoLutheran
Probably the answer will be make the infant over in the image of man and man's religion and not God or God's kingdom. The blind have done this to the blind for centuries as scripture said they would. Ownership. Security in numbers.You say baptism is leading to salvation. can you please explain further in reference to an infant?
What if they never accepted Christ in the first place but were baptized as an infant?
You say baptism is leading to salvation. can you please explain further in reference to an infant?
So are you saying that all infants baptized are saved automatically?The thing that I think you might be struggling with is this idea of us needing to make some personal decision, a personal act of acceptance, something that happens distinctly once in a person's lifetime. That's simply not the way I or most other Christians think about things.
If you were to ask me, "When did you accept Jesus?" My answer wouldn't be to tell you a date or time, because there is no date or time where some definitive "decision" for Jesus happened in my life. I've always believed in Jesus. Now, I wasn't baptized as an infant--because I was raised in a church environment that only practiced believer's baptism--but I was raised up in the faith. There's simply never been a time in my life that I haven't believed in Jesus. So if you ask me, when did I accept Jesus, my answer would be every day. Or at least I try to. I try to make a decision to follow Christ every day. That I might devote myself to Him as my Lord. But, you see, that decision, my desire to submit myself to the Lord, that isn't what saves me--because those are works. So if I tell you I accept Jesus Christ every day, I'm not saying I'm "saved" over and over again, I'm saying that my desire to serve Christ isn't some personal decision I made once in my life--it's a personal decision that I have made many times, and seek to make all the time--though I fail, and falter, and sin, and fall, and so I trust in God's mercy which is mine in Jesus.
So when you ask if a baptized child never "accepted" Christ "in the first place", that's not really something that makes sense to me. I understand what you are asking, but I used to subscribe to that theology. But from this side of the theological aisle, it just doesn't make sense.
The baptized child is baptized, they belong to Jesus. They may, when they get older, walk away from Jesus; but they never had to do some particular thing to earn Jesus' love and acceptance, they have it already. They were marked as Christians in Holy Baptism, they are believers in Jesus. Because faith isn't about reason or the intellect, faith is the supernatural gift of God.
-CryptoLutheran
Doesnt this take the free will of the adult or child to choose rather than it being forced on them as an infant? What is the point of free will?The same as for an adult. I don't know that I can put it any better than what Scripture already says:
All who are baptized into Christ have put on Christ (Galatians 3:27). We were buried and dead with Jesus, crucified with Christ, and raised up with Him to new life, we share in Christ's life (Romans 6:3-10).
We have been born again (John 3:5, Titus 3:5)
We received the precious gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38)
We have been washed and sanctified by Jesus (Ephesians 5:26)
-CryptoLutheran
Does an infant have faith? What are the signs to guage that theory?The thing that I think you might be struggling with is this idea of us needing to make some personal decision, a personal act of acceptance, something that happens distinctly once in a person's lifetime. That's simply not the way I or most other Christians think about things.
If you were to ask me, "When did you accept Jesus?" My answer wouldn't be to tell you a date or time, because there is no date or time where some definitive "decision" for Jesus happened in my life. I've always believed in Jesus. Now, I wasn't baptized as an infant--because I was raised in a church environment that only practiced believer's baptism--but I was raised up in the faith. There's simply never been a time in my life that I haven't believed in Jesus. So if you ask me, when did I accept Jesus, my answer would be every day. Or at least I try to. I try to make a decision to follow Christ every day. That I might devote myself to Him as my Lord. But, you see, that decision, my desire to submit myself to the Lord, that isn't what saves me--because those are works. So if I tell you I accept Jesus Christ every day, I'm not saying I'm "saved" over and over again, I'm saying that my desire to serve Christ isn't some personal decision I made once in my life--it's a personal decision that I have made many times, and seek to make all the time--though I fail, and falter, and sin, and fall, and so I trust in God's mercy which is mine in Jesus.
So when you ask if a baptized child never "accepted" Christ "in the first place", that's not really something that makes sense to me. I understand what you are asking, but I used to subscribe to that theology. But from this side of the theological aisle, it just doesn't make sense.
The baptized child is baptized, they belong to Jesus. They may, when they get older, walk away from Jesus; but they never had to do some particular thing to earn Jesus' love and acceptance, they have it already. They were marked as Christians in Holy Baptism, they are believers in Jesus. Because faith isn't about reason or the intellect, faith is the supernatural gift of God.
-CryptoLutheran
That's easy; God made covenant with his people and his people includes children and infants so in ancient times boys were circumcised as the sign of their inclusion in the covenant people of God and now after Christ has come and the new covenant established boys and girls are baptised as the sign, seal, and gift of inclusion in the body of Christ as the covenant people of God. I hope that is clear. It looks very easy to understand to me.Hi Family,
Can you please explain to me the logic and reasoning behind infant baptism?
~Natsumi Lam~
So does batism save the infant automatically or do baptised infants not have a choice to accept Jesus or not?That's easy; God made covenant with his people and his people includes children and infants so in ancient times boys were circumcised as the sign of their inclusion in the covenant people of God and now after Christ has come and the new covenant established buys and girls are baptised as the sign, seal, and gift of inclusion in the body of Christ as the covenant people of God. I hope that is clear. It looks very easy to understand to me.
So are you saying that all infants baptized are saved automatically?
Are you also saying that one person could force their will on a child to make them saved?
Are you saying that everyone baptized is automatically saved or that it just leads to salvation one day?
Or are you saying everyone is saved because God loves them and free will is mute.
I am refering to the parents forcing kids to be baptized as infants, not Jesus.All who are baptized are clothed with Christ, so yes, baptized persons are saved. God is the kind and gracious One who saves us by uniting us to His Son, for this reason we preach the Gospel and baptize--because God has promised to work His good work on us through them.
Kind of a weird way to phrase it. But yes, God in His loving kindness comes to us to make us His own, that's why He sent Jesus. I wouldn't exactly call Jesus dying for our sins "forcing" Himself on us though.
What I said above, all who are baptized belong to Christ, and so are saved, yes. As it is written, "All who call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13).
Not everyone automatically saved; or rather not everyone has been given faith. It is true that since Christ died for all, that therefore all have been justified in an objective sense (Romans 5:18), but, as already said, what Christ has done is applied to us by God; that is a "subjective" justification. In that what Christ has done for all is made ours individually by God's gracious work by granting faith to our hearts through His precious Word and Sacraments. After all, how can they call on One they have not heard, and how can they hear unless there are those who are sent? (Romans 10:14-15).
-CryptoLutheran
What if the infant has not been given faith? Or are you saying forced baptism is essentially forced faith?All who are baptized are clothed with Christ, so yes, baptized persons are saved. God is the kind and gracious One who saves us by uniting us to His Son, for this reason we preach the Gospel and baptize--because God has promised to work His good work on us through them.
Kind of a weird way to phrase it. But yes, God in His loving kindness comes to us to make us His own, that's why He sent Jesus. I wouldn't exactly call Jesus dying for our sins "forcing" Himself on us though.
What I said above, all who are baptized belong to Christ, and so are saved, yes. As it is written, "All who call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13).
Not everyone automatically saved; or rather not everyone has been given faith. It is true that since Christ died for all, that therefore all have been justified in an objective sense (Romans 5:18), but, as already said, what Christ has done is applied to us by God; that is a "subjective" justification. In that what Christ has done for all is made ours individually by God's gracious work by granting faith to our hearts through His precious Word and Sacraments. After all, how can they call on One they have not heard, and how can they hear unless there are those who are sent? (Romans 10:14-15).
-CryptoLutheran
It's one of those threads where you start to get RSI in your fingers by the end, through endless typing and exchanges. Then you put in a prayer request asking people to pray for your fingers.That actually made me laugh out loud.
Infants are unlikely to need to repent and be forgiven for any sins that they do because they do not know how to sin and cannot be held responsible; so as long as one is an infant the question about being saved from one's sins is theoretical rather than practical. If you are wondering "what about original sin?" that is a matter that baptism does deal with and all who are baptised have their sins washed away and if they are infants then it is original sin that is washed away. So in brief yes infants are saved in baptism.So does batism save the infant automatically or do baptised infants not have a choice to accept Jesus or not?
So what if someone is not baptized? Do they have free will and infants who grow up do not?Infants are unlikely to need to repent and be forgiven for any sins that they do because they do not know how to sin and cannot be held responsible; so as long as one is an infant the question about being saved from one's sins is theoretical rather than practical. If you are wondering "what about original sin?" that is a matter that baptism does deal with and all who are baptised have their sins washed away and if they are infants then it is original sin that is washed away. So in brief yes infants are saved in baptism.
Baptism doesn't save. Only Jesus saves. Infant baptism is a false teaching not given to us in the Bible.*sighs* How many threads now do we have on this topic?
I personally believe that baptism saves. Infants, like all people, are sinners and hence need baptism to be saved.
That was a special event that occurred in the context of a supernatural environment. You cannot normalize that as part of the Christian experience for all people for all time.Well, John the Baptist leapt in the womb of his mother. Just at the sound of Mary's voice, who carried within her Christ.
Baptism does not wash away free will so infants and adults alike have as free a will after baptism as they did before.So what if someone is not baptized? Do they have free will and infants who grow up do not?
Baptism saves but baptism does not force anyone to remain a Christian and experience teaches that many who are baptised may turn away from Christianity and embrace atheism, agnosticism, some other religion or some variety of Christianity that is widely considered aberrant.Is forced baptism forced faith? " You are saved no matter what when you get older" "You dont have a choice to either accept Christ or not for your salvation"
I'm wondering, do you reference John's leap in the womb in the context of a pro-life discussion?That was a special event that occurred in the context of a supernatural environment...
1 Peter 3:21 tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He says that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).Baptism is salvific (1 Peter 3:21),
Have you considered "living water" in John 3:5? Jesus said, "born of water and the Spirit" and He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit. To automatically read "baptism" into this verse simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. Scripture interprets itself. Notice in John 7:38-39, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of LIVING WATER. But this He spoke concerning the SPIRIT.as it is new birth from God (John 3:5, Titus 3:5) and all else which Scripture says of it.
Through Spirit baptism (1 Corinthians 12:13) which is signified in water baptism.The reason why we devote ourselves, as the Church, to the baptized, is because this Christian life is lived together in Christ, not alone. The baptized has become part of us, and we part of them; because we are--all together--the one new man which is in Christ Jesus (Ephesians 2:14-16).
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