Infant Baptism

[narnia59]

My point of wonder, as well.

"Jesus was dunked, so we need to be dunked so that we are following His example." Yet if we truly want to follow His example, we'd all have to fly to Israel to be baptized in the Jordan River just like He was.

There is no scriptural basis to support that Jesus was 'dunked'.

 

[holyrokker]

There is no scriptural basis to support that Jesus was 'dunked'.

Exactly!
That's one of the reasons that I disagree with the notion that we must "follow the example of Jesus" in baptism.

 

[narnia59]

Representing those who believe baptism does something very much indeed--that is is powerful, effective, and not at all "just a symbol"

it is actually participating in the burial of Christ--something an infant cannot do since it has nothing to die for (it is innocent)--and participating in the resurrection of Christ to new life--something an infant cannot do because that involves following Yeshua and no infant knows Yeshua, let alone can follow him.

Putting a babe to death in baptisim is as ludicrous as trying to wash a stain off something brand-new and unstained. And it is EXTREMELY dangerous since it assumes to influence something that doesn't even exist yet, leaving the child open to being taken over by its sinful ways later in life since no sinful ways existed yet to be put to death.

An infant has nothing to die for? So why do infants die?

And can you explain Paul's view that children are 'unclean' unless made 'holy' by a believing parent? (1 Cor 7:14)? That seems to clearly contradict your opinion that children are at birth and by nature, unstained.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Exactly!
That's one of the reasons that I disagree with the notion that we must "follow the example of Jesus" in baptism.

I do not think we're following Jesus example since Jesus was baptised with John's baptism.

What we're following is Jesus admonition, "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit"

It's a different sort of baptism from John's.

It is a baptism with water and the Spirit.

Water and the word contributing to the washing of regeneration.

 

[narnia59]

Exactly!
That's one of the reasons that I disagree with the notion that we must "follow the example of Jesus" in baptism.

Pardon me, I misunderstood your post to agree with something you do not.

 

[holyrokker]

Pardon me, I misunderstood your post to agree with something you do not.

It a hazard of message boards.

 

[shturt678]

They have nothing to offer, nothing to bring, and are not smart enough to understand a lick of what Jesus said except "come to me all of you who are weary and heavily burdened and I will give you rest"

God keep you my friend and brother and may he bless you with a hugely high IQ and stuff so you can bask in still being insufficient to understand.

None of us creatures can understand what it's like to be God.

But we sure as sure can be are sufficient to be loved by God.

Because all the love come from him and we don't need to be smart to receive his love.

....and old wretched Christians like me not playing with a full deck. Thank you my friend. BTW room temperature increased in Hawaii, yet still way below 100 degrees. First and foremost after all the and those little infants also need the Holy Spirit, ie, how else are they going to receive unless by affusion? I can assure you if I try and dunk one of those precious little ones with the parents around, they will drown me! If this happens how can you and I have coffee together MoreCoffee? I think those little ones have a little more going for them in the dialectical department than you give them credit for. I'm glad you and I are not blocking these little ones from entering the Kingdom of God due the deep water type baptism at Matt.18:6.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Exactly how is your brand of "monergism" different from Calvinist double predestination?

Double predestination posits that God chooses the elect to salvation, and passes over the reprobate, thus there is a segment of the human population that was born to be damned, without hope of salvation.

Lutherans believe Christ died for everyone, and that God desires everyone to be saved. Everyone means everyone. Nobody is passed over, the Gospel goes out to all, for all, and it has the power to save all.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Elder 111]

Correct. Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, which is the gift of God, and not by our works.

-CryptoLutheran

What does choosing salvation and accepting Christ have to do with Works?

 

[holyrokker]

Double predestination posits that God chooses the elect to salvation, and passes over the reprobate, thus there is a segment of the human population that was born to be damned, without hope of salvation.

Lutherans believe Christ died for everyone, and that God desires everyone to be saved. Everyone means everyone. Nobody is passed over, the Gospel goes out to all, for all, and it has the power to save all.

-CryptoLutheran

Lutherans share that belief with most other Christians.

 

[Albion]

Double predestination posits that God chooses the elect to salvation, and passes over the reprobate, thus there is a segment of the human population that was born to be damned, without hope of salvation.

Lutherans believe Christ died for everyone, and that God desires everyone to be saved. Everyone means everyone. Nobody is passed over, the Gospel goes out to all, for all, and it has the power to save all.

-CryptoLutheran

Not sure that that is the belief of all Lutherans, however; especially since we've recently had a discussion here about the Lutheran version of predestination.

 

[PaladinValer]

Hi. My question is just a simple one but with a long backstory.. I was baptized as an infant.

Then you are baptized, period.

I've always held this baptism as a true one based on this: I believe if you are baptized and later on decide to not follow God, your baptism is no longer valid. That being said, I believe in the opposite, if you decide to come to God after being baptized, your baptism is in fact, valid.

This is a theology of works, not of grace.

Holy Baptism is one of the indisputable sacraments. A sacrament is defined as an outward and visible sign of an inward and invisible grace. God works in sacramental theology by bestowing the grace that the sign(s) imply (in other words, the signs do what they mean by God). Though an ordained cleric (and rarely by a layperson), God works the grace being celebrated.

As such, while the cleric (or layperson) applies water, they don't bestow the grace; only God does that, and according to the historic, verifiable theology of the Church, He does, and this theology has been the theology since ever.

A person once baptized is baptized for good. Even if that person leaves the Christian faith, the baptism is not invalidated. Should that person return to the faith, the baptism cannot EVER be done again because that would be sacrilege because it implies GOD FAILED.

I've also thought that the babies were dedicated in the Israelites' covenant after 8 days, and entire households were baptized in the New Testament.

Correct. Baptism is the fulfillment of the practice of circumcision. Furthermore, you are correct that entire households were baptized according to the New Testament. When you realize that a "household" back then included not just the men but all people living in or working with it, including servants and slaves...which automatically including children...you find out that paedobaptism is entirely Biblical and its naysayers are either ignorant of this fact or are willfully excluding it, which is worse.

That being said, the church I belong to now believes my baptism is not valid by noting that in the New Testament, it is 'believe, then be baptized'.

You need to find a new place of worship then, especially since the quote is 'believe and be baptized".

This obviously disturbs me because, does my baptism count?

Yes, and it always will because God acted and imparted saving grace.

Do I need to be re-baptized?

It is absolutely impossible to be re-baptized according to historic, verifiable, ancient Christian teaching. Absolutely and utterly impossible. All what would happen is the person would get wet and would be automatically in severe jeopardy with God.

I don't know, and I've been following God for a while now and am scared that I've been following all this time but missing a step. I've always thought my baptism was valid until my pastor said it was not. Can somebody shine some light on this?

The pastor is wrong and is teaching works-based theology that is foreign to Christianity. Avoid it,l and the pastor, like the Plague.

 

[ViaCrucis]

What does choosing salvation and accepting Christ have to do with Works?

Because an act is a work.

The work of choosing salvation is just that, a work.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Lutherans share that belief with most other Christians.

Yes, but I was answering what makes the Lutheran view of predestination different from the Reformed-Calvinist one. Lutherans affirm since Christ died for all, God therefore desires all to be saved. Strict Five-Point Calvinism states that Christ died only for the elect, and that those whom God has not elected are inevitably damned and without hope, as the Gospel isn't for them, Christ's salvific work isn't for them and can never be fore them.

Calvinists say Christ is the Savior of the elect only.
Lutherans, like most Christians, say Christ is the Savior of all men.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Not sure that that is the belief of all Lutherans, however; especially since we've recently had a discussion here about the Lutheran version of predestination.

I could be mistaken, but I'm fairly sure that I've represented the basic views of the Lutheran Confessions on the topic.

Double Predestination isn't compatible with Lutheran doctrine, that would make one a Crypto-Calvinist, not a Lutheran.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[narnia59]

Because an act is a work.

The work of choosing salvation is just that, a work.

-CryptoLutheran

I would agree, unless it is only possible because it's been enabled by grace.

Acts 8:27 And when he wished to cross to Acha'ia, the brethren encouraged him, and wrote to the disciples to receive him. When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed

Which is why, I believe from the Catholic perspective the entire faith vs works debate makes little sense. We can only believe by grace. We can only do good works because we've been enabled by grace, and can therefore do all things in him who strengthens us.

God is always the initiator, He enables all our efforts by grace, and we can through our free will choose to yield, or not. Whether we yield our will and intellect to faith, or yield to his call to service -- no difference. In the words of St. Therese of Lisieux, everything is grace, because everything is God's gift.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Double predestination posits that God chooses the elect to salvation, and passes over the reprobate, thus there is a segment of the human population that was born to be damned, without hope of salvation.

Lutherans believe Christ died for everyone, and that God desires everyone to be saved. Everyone means everyone. Nobody is passed over, the Gospel goes out to all, for all, and it has the power to save all.

-CryptoLutheran

I see.

But how is everyone not saved if God desires it?

Since you say that humans are wholly passive in salvation; receiving without acting, like a dead body receives. Becoming alive only when God gives life (presumably eternal life).

And if there is any element of human action, like rejecting the offered salvation or accepting it, then aren't you really a synergist according to your previous statements?

 

[MoreCoffee]

They have nothing to offer, nothing to bring, and are not smart enough to understand a lick of what Jesus said except "come to me all of you who are weary and heavily burdened and I will give you rest"

God keep you my friend and brother and may he bless you with a hugely high IQ and stuff so you can bask in still being insufficient to understand.

None of us creatures can understand what it's like to be God.

But we sure as sure can be are sufficient to be loved by God.

Because all the love come from him and we don't need to be smart to receive his love.

....and old wretched Christians like me not playing with a full deck. Thank you my friend. BTW room temperature increased in Hawaii, yet still way below 100 degrees. First and foremost after all the and those little infants also need the Holy Spirit, ie, how else are they going to receive unless by affusion? I can assure you if I try and dunk one of those precious little ones with the parents around, they will drown me! If this happens how can you and I have coffee together MoreCoffee? I think those little ones have a little more going for them in the dialectical department than you give them credit for. I'm glad you and I are not blocking these little ones from entering the Kingdom of God due the deep water type baptism at Matt.18:6.

Dear friend and brother in the Lord,

I reckon that we depend on God wholly for everything.

Saint Paul said "in him we live and move and have our being".

That Paul chap was such a philosopher-theologian at times!

Anyway, God gives us graces, gifts if you will, and we respond by making good or not good use of them.

For example, God gives us life and we respond by living either a good life or a bad one.

Now most of us will admit we live a pretty second rate, rather bad, life even if we wish we were living otherwise.

And we all, I reckon, will admit to God that we didn't do anything more than he wanted from us even if we were pretty much perfect.

Yet so few of us have been perfect in that way.

So, nearly all of us will stand before God in need of mercy because we totally messed everything up.

That's where one more grace comes in, it's the biggest and best grace, because it is Jesus Christ.

God gives us Jesus and we do not deserve him.

God calls us to believe and gives grace to believe and we respond by either believing or not.

That's where another very ancient and totally universal grace from God comes in.

God gives us freedom to use or misuse his gifts.

Do you agree?

Whoops!

I ought to have written the above in a different thread!

This one is about baptism!

And most of us receive baptism quite passively as babies!

Aint that grand! God comes to us when we're helpless.

Just like saint Paul said, Romans 5:6 When we were still helpless, at the appointed time, Christ died for the godless.

 

[Rev Randy]

It's a mystery

Very Orthodox of you

 

[MoreCoffee]

Very Orthodox of you

I was waiting for somebody to pick up on the pun ... and there's another pun intended in that reply, related to the one you saw.

God bless you my brother.

You cheer me up