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Infant Baptism

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Athanasias

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Salvation is a personal choice and decision, not something that can be done esoterically by a third party.organisation.

All are born in sin, we need to do something to be made righteous, this is choosing Christ over the flesh.

Infants do not have the ability to make this decision for themselves so cannot be held responsible. So what happens in the event of infant death? The body is buried/cremated and that's it. No resurrection to judgement as the infant is not responsible.


Salvation and Baptism are not just merely personal in the bible, they are communal in nature also. So yes the faith of the church as a community can work initially to grant the infant baptism. Of coarse later on when the infant becomes older he or she is to personally make those vows for themselves. This is part of the sacrament of confirmation! Kinda like the way a infant can become part of God's covenant in circumcision(Gen 17:10-12). Baptism replaces circumcision(Col 2:11-13).;)

Infants cannot go to hell because they have not committed any personal mortal sin. But they do have original sin on their soul. And because we need to have sanctifying grace to enter glory and original sin destroyed sanctifying grace, then we need to regain this grace by baptism. The infant cannot go to hell. However, We do not know what will happen to a infant who dies without baptism. We are not 100% sure. We entrust them to the mercy of Christ. However, we do not baptize infants merely for that reason. We baptize Infants to make them members of Christ household. And to give them the gift of salvation in Christ, hence washing away their original sin and turning them from sons of Adam to sons of the New Adam(Jesus). Christ through his holy Church gives the infants the greatest gift ever. The gift of holy adoption and justification/sanctification/salvation. Let us not keep this gift of Christ from our infants. Let them be born again as a son of the new Adam through the waters of baptism. Amen!
 
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Ormly

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Salvation and Baptism are not just merely personal in the bible, they are communal in nature also. So yes the faith of the church as a community can work initially to grant the infant baptism. Of coarse later on when the infant becomes older he or she is to personally make those vows for themselves.

Oh, you must be speaking of infant dedication like what Hannah did, right?
 
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Athanasias

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Oh, you must be speaking of infant dedication like what Hannah did, right?

No actually I was referring to the baptisms found in the book of Acts of the Apostles. Passages like Acts 16:14-40 demonstrate the "corporate nature" of salvation and baptism . Both Lydia and the Jailer both show that when the leading member of the family becomes Christian and baptized, the whole family does. This was known as household baptisms in the early church. They stressed the corporate nature of baptism and our faith as the body. People tend to have difficulties in understanding infant baptism because they tend to only see the person as a absolute individualistic unit. However, Christ works to save through faith also in a corporate nature through his body(the church) and reveals this in household baptisms. This is a strong biblical evidence(In addition to the rest of the biblical and early traditional evidence from apostolic tradition) for infant baptism based upon the faith of the church as a corporate body at least initially..
 
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Ormly

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Infants cannot go to hell because they have not committed any personal mortal sin. But they do have original sin on their soul. And because we need to have sanctifying grace to enter glory and original sin destroyed sanctifying grace, then we need to regain this grace by baptism.

That is not the word of God but of man's reasoning.

The infant cannot go to hell. However, We do not know what will happen to a infant who dies without baptism. We are not 100% sure.

We do know for a certainty that all infants are the Lords; a heritage of the Father. Children are innocent of any sin or sin stain for which God's law was written upon the hearts of men for the purpose of conviction. Infants and chrildren are exempt in this simply because they lack the capablity for understanding anything written upon the heart; anything concerning conviction.


We entrust them to the mercy of Christ. However, we do not baptize infants merely for that reason. We baptize Infants to make them members of Christ household. And to give them the gift of salvation in Christ, hence washing away their original sin and turning them from sons of Adam to sons of the New Adam(Jesus). Christ through his holy Church gives the infants the greatest gift ever. The gift of holy adoption and justification/sanctification/salvation. Let us not keep this gift of Christ from our infants. Let them be born again as a son of the new Adam through the waters of baptism. Amen!
Sorry, but this is utter and complete fabrication of the scriptures that ignore the basic elemental teachings of Jesus Christ.

What is accepted to be child baptism was not intended to be a baptism at all but child dedication patterned after Hannah who dedicated her son Samuel; giving him back to God to be nurtured for His service. We know Samuel became a great prophet. Mary and Joseph followed this pattern when presenting Jesus for dedication in the Temple.
 
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Athanasias

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That is not the word of God but of man's reasoning.

No I would dissagree. This teaching is contained in the word of God both written and oral. But there is nothing wrong with mans reasoning if it is formed by faith.



We do know for a certainty that all infants are the Lords; a heritage of the Father. Children are innocent of any sin or sin stain for which God's law was written upon the hearts of men for the purpose of conviction. Infants and chrildren are exempt in this simply because they lack the capablity for understanding anything written upon the heart; anything concerning conviction.

I agree with you that infants are incapable of sinning personally. However I would dissagree with you and say that all have inherited the stain of Adams original sin, even infants. This was always taught in Christianity. So I believe you are the one teaching the novelty not I.



Sorry, but this is utter and complete fabrication of the scriptures that ignore the basic elemental teachings of Jesus Christ.

No it not fabrication, rather it is the teaching of Jesus Christ implied by the scriptures and made explicit to his Church by the oral word of God and has always been belived and practiced in early and modern Christian Church.

What is accepted to be child baptism was not intended to be a baptism at all but child dedication patterned after Hannah who dedicated her son Samuel; giving him back to God to be nurtured for His service. We know Samuel became a great prophet. Mary and Joseph followed this pattern when presenting Jesus for dedication in the Temple.

I respect your position but no you are incorrect. The early Christians did baptized infants and saw it as a real baptism not just a mere dedication(Although we really do dedicate the child to God at baptism, it is much more.) Mary and Joseph circumcised Jesus because it was the old covenant law and way of entering him into the covenant and Jewish family(Gen 17:10-12). Circumcision was a type of baptism in the old testament. It prefigured baptism. If God could enter a infant in the old covenant so to he would in the new St Paul and Peter allude to. And Trinitarian Baptism, the new covenant sacrament is what fulfills and replaces circumcsion(Col 2:11-13).:)

I am enjoying this dialog. It is good to debate these things with good God fearing people such as yourself. God bless you !
 
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Catholic Christian

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That is not the word of God but of man's reasoning.
But if you interpret the scriptures for yourself, couldn't your personal interpretation be considered "man's reasoning" (in this case, you being da' man)?
 
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Athanasias

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But if you interpret the scriptures for yourself, couldn't your personal interpretation be considered "man's reasoning" (in this case, you being da' man)?

I have no idea how I got quoted saying that. I agree with you! Ormly actually said that to me. I hope he reads my answers to his objections that I posted above.
 
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Ormly

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ormly



That is not the word of God but of man's reasoning.

No I would dissagree. This teaching is contained in the word of God both written and oral. But there is nothing wrong with mans reasoning if it is formed by faith.

Then I suggest you offer up the of 'word of God' while leaving out Catholic conclusions deduced by surmise and guesswork


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ormly
We do know for a certainty that all infants are the Lords; a heritage of the Father. Children are innocent of any sin or sin stain for which God's law was written upon the hearts of men for the purpose of conviction. Infants and chrildren are exempt in this simply because they lack the capablity for understanding anything written upon the heart; anything concerning conviction.

I agree with you that infants are incapable of sinning personally. However I would dissagree with you and say that all have inherited the stain of Adams original sin, even infants. This was always taught in Christianity. So I believe you are the one teaching the novelty not I.

Again, you can only surmise and guess and you do so in light of what is revealed that speaks otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ormly
Sorry, but this is utter and complete fabrication of the scriptures that ignore the basic elemental teachings of Jesus Christ.

No it not fabrication, rather it is the teaching of Jesus Christ implied by the scriptures and made explicit to his Church by the oral word of God and has always been belived and practiced in early and modern Christian Church.

Sorry, fabricated implications not allowed in discussions where truth is revealed.;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ormly
What is accepted to be child baptism was not intended to be a baptism at all but child dedication patterned after Hannah who dedicated her son Samuel; giving him back to God to be nurtured for His service. We know Samuel became a great prophet. Mary and Joseph followed this pattern when presenting Jesus for dedication in the Temple.

I respect your position but no you are incorrect. The early Christians did baptized infants and saw it as a real baptism not just a mere dedication(Although we really do dedicate the child to God at baptism, it is much more.) Mary and Joseph circumcised Jesus because it was the old covenant law and way of entering him into the covenant and Jewish family(Gen 17:10-12). Circumcision was a type of baptism in the old testament. It prefigured baptism. If God could enter a infant in the old covenant so to he would in the new St Paul and Peter allude to. And Trinitarian Baptism, the new covenant sacrament is what fulfills and replaces circumcsion(Col 2:11-13).

Not hardly. Since NT circumcision is of the heart. Water baptism isn't in the program for reason of circumcision.

I understand the Jewish thing that Mary and Joseph followed. However, Hannah is another story that makes no mention of circumcision. It was a year after Samuel's birth she gave him back to God. In either case water baptism isn't mentioned. Surely if it was all that important God would have commanded it. But then we know the reason why it isn't necessary.

There is no Church ordered 'infant baptism' you speak of performed by earily Christians until the CC was inserted into the mix. I believe they all knew the gospel and letters of Paul.

I am enjoying this dialog. It is good to debate these things with good God fearing people such as yourself. God bless you !

Likewise and thank you
 
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Athanasias

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Then I suggest you offer up the of 'word of God' while leaving out Catholic conclusions deduced by surmise and guesswork

Sorry, fabricated implications not allowed in discussions where truth is revealed.;)


There is no Church ordered 'infant baptism' you speak of performed by earily Christians until the CC was inserted into the mix. I believe they all knew the gospel and letters of Paul.

The early Christians were the Catholics. We are the same early Christians that gave you the canon of the new testament that you believe in.

In regards to your challenge to offer up the "Word of God" on this topic I have already shown the implicit biblical evidence and explicit historical evidence from Apostolic oral tradition for infant baptism. Hence I have already "offered up" both the oral and written "Word of God" on this subject . Much of which you did not reply. So I will just paste the same answers I had before.

Enjoy: Here are the reasons offered up "from the Word of God"(Both oral and written)

We do not think we should deny that infant that free gift of Christ grace. That is why we baptize infants. That and to wash away their original sin(Rom 5:12:-15). Christ gives the Church the Sacrament of baptism so we can give the free gift of grace to others. Christ Jesus instituted his Trinitarian baptism to apply this grace to people. He even commands us to do it(Matt 28:19-20). So of coarse we will obey him and give his baptism to our children. God can grant grace outside of the normal means(sacraments). But he instituted this sacrament for the purpose of giving his free gift to others so we need to obey him because that is the "normative means" he sets up for the church.

Jesus baptism actually does remit guilt and washes away our sins(Acts 22:16. Act 2:38-39) and does what John's couldn't do(Namely infuses our soul with his grace and actually saves us, justifies us,, and sanctifies us(1 Cor 6:11. Titus 3:5-7), hence Trinifying us.

A few things about that verse in Acts 2 that protestants seem to think denies infant baptism. To begin with Peter tells the People to repent before they are baptized. Why? Because Peter was talking to Adults in this context. The Catholic church has always taught that adults or Children of the age of reason do need to repent before baptism. However passage doesn't disqualify infant baptism at all. There is no place in the bible that says "Do not baptize infants". As a matter of fact the same passage protestants quote to me(Acts 2:38) trying to prove infant baptism is wrong actually implicitly teaches the possibility of infant baptism! Notice what Peters says right after he tells the adults. He says this (Baptism) is for you and your children. Nowhere does Peter specify age! And if you study the culture of the time it becomes even clearer. The Hebrew mindset of time would have automatically understood this to mean infants as well as others. Especially since their culture allowed for circumcision, a covenant ritual performed on infants that entered them into the Jewish faith and communion with God. St Paul shows us that the Sacrament of Baptism replaces circumcision(Col 2:11-13). Hence the new covenant of baptism fulfills the old covenant of circumcision. Baptism now enters you into the True religion and Family of God and give us communion with God(The Trinity). If the Old covenant could enter Infants into Gods family so then too the new covenant can on a even greater level. Baptism is a typological fulfillment of circumcision. No covenant fulfillment's is ever inferior to its old testament type. The fulfillment is always superior. If infants could not be baptized then baptism is a inferior covenant to circumcision.

In Luke 18:15-17 speaking of Infants, Jesus tells us that we are not hinder even the infants to come to him to receive the kingdom of God. Speaking of infants he even says "whoever does not receive the "Kingdom of God" like a Child(Infant in context) shall not enter it. Besides circumcision, this is a big implicit hint to infant baptism in scripture. Bible scholars compare the Phrase "Kingdom of God" to others important passages were Jesus speaks about how to enter into the "kingdom of God". How does one enter into the "kingdom of God"? In JN 3:3-5 Jesus shows us we enter in to the "kingdom of God" by the sacrament of Baptism. So how then do infants and all of us enter initially into the kingdom of God? By baptism. we have to put the pieces of the puzzle together in scripture in its context as a whole as well as its immediate and historical context. Protestant Man made tradition teaches against infant baptism but from the very beginning of Christianity it wasn't so.

More implicit biblical evidence comes from the fact that whole families were baptized in a corporate manner. Is one expected to believe that infants in the family were not also part of that? Here is more implicit evidence from sacred scripture.

Passages like Acts 16:14-40 demonstrate the "corporate nature" of salvation and baptism . Both Lydia and the Jailer both show that when the leading member of the family becomes Christian and baptized, the whole family does. This was known as household baptisms in the early church. They stressed the corporate nature of baptism and our faith as the body. People tend to have difficulties in understanding infant baptism because they tend to only see the person as a absolute individualistic unit. However, Christ works to save through faith also in a corporate nature through his body(the church) and reveals this in household baptisms. This is a strong biblical evidence(In addition to the rest of the biblical and early traditional evidence from apostolic tradition) for infant baptism based upon the faith of the church as a corporate body at least initially..


The baptism of infants is implicit in scripture but explicit in the Oral traditions/teachings of the apostles that were handed down from the very beginning.

Here are a few quotes from the early Christians(the same guys who you owe your new testament canon to)

Hippolytus

"Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them" (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).



Origen

"Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . . In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous" (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 248]).

"The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit" (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born" (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]).

Gregory of Nazianz

"Do you have an infant child? Allow sin no opportunity; rather, let the infant be sanctified from childhood. From his most tender age let him be consecrated by the Spirit. Do you fear the seal [of baptism] because of the weakness of nature? Oh, what a pusillanimous mother and of how little faith!" (Oration on Holy Baptism 40:7 [A.D. 388]).

John Chrysostom

"You see how many are the benefits of baptism, and some think its heavenly grace consists only in the remission of sins, but we have enumerated ten honors [it bestows]! For this reason we baptize even infants, though they are not defiled by [personal] sins, so that there may be given to them holiness, righteousness, adoption, inheritance, brotherhood with Christ, and that they may be his [Christ’s] members" (Baptismal Catecheses in Augustine, Against Julian 1:6:21 [A.D. 388]).

Augustine

"What the universal Church holds, not as instituted [invented] by councils but as something always held, is most correctly believed to have been handed down by apostolic authority. Since others respond for children, so that the celebration of the sacrament may be complete for them, it is certainly availing to them for their consecration, because they themselves are not able to respond" (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:24:31 [A.D. 400]).

"The custom of Mother Church in baptizing infants is certainly not to be scorned, nor is it to be regarded in any way as superfluous, nor is it to be believed that its tradition is anything except apostolic" (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 10:23:39 [A.D. 408]).

"Cyprian was not issuing a new decree but was keeping to the most solid belief of the Church in order to correct some who thought that infants ought not be baptized before the eighth day after their birth. . . . He agreed with certain of his fellow bishops that a child is able to be duly baptized as soon as he is born" (Letters 166:8:23 [A.D. 412]).

"By this grace baptized infants too are ingrafted into his [Christ’s] body, infants who certainly are not yet able to imitate anyone. Christ, in whom all are made alive . . . gives also the most hidden grace of his Spirit to believers, grace which he secretly infuses even into infants. . . . It is an excellent thing that the Punic [North African] Christians call baptism salvation and the sacrament of Christ’s Body nothing else than life. Whence does this derive, except from an ancient and, as I suppose, apostolic tradition, by which the churches of Christ hold inherently that without baptism and participation at the table of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and life eternal? This is the witness of Scripture, too. . . . If anyone wonders why children born of the baptized should themselves be baptized, let him attend briefly to this. . . . The sacrament of baptism is most assuredly the sacrament of regeneration" (Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sin, and the Baptism of Infants 1:9:10; 1:24:34; 2:27:43 [A.D. 412]).
 
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k2svpete

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Nonsense! You can't support the notion except to rend scriptures to make your asserton.
We are all born in sin -

Numbers 14:18
‘The LORD is longsuffering and abundant in mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He by no means clears the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation

We cannot be reconciled back to God except through Jesus Christ. Each person has to make that decision for themselves.

As God is just and righteous, the exception cannot be made, even for infants. As they are dead in sin they cannot be reconciled to God (righteousness) but as they are not able to make that choice to put to death the flesh of their old selves and choose to live in Christ (symbology of baptism), they will not be judged (God's mercy).
 
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Ormly

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We are all born in sin -

Numbers 14:18
‘The LORD is longsuffering and abundant in mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He by no means clears the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation.’

We cannot be reconciled back to God except through Jesus Christ. Each person has to make that decision for themselves.

As God is just and righteous, the exception cannot be made, even for infants. As they are dead in sin they cannot be reconciled to God (righteousness) but as they are not able to make that choice to put to death the flesh of their old selves and choose to live in Christ (symbology of baptism), they will not be judged (God's mercy).

Why do you overlook that the fact that without the law; knowledge of it, no penalty for sin is imposed. What that simply means is that no innocent person is condemned. This translates to babies/infants/toddlers, the mentality challenged, et al, since they do not possess the capacity to take in the issues of right wrong. God does not hold them accountable.


Here: "In fact, sin was in the world before the law, but sin [sin's penalty] is not charged to one’s account when there is no law." [not imputed to one incapable of understanding] Romans 5:13 (HCSB)

[Emphasis mine]
 
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Apollos1

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Numbers 14:18 –

“The LORD is longsuffering and abundant in mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He by no means clears the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation

Please read the whole chapter and keep in mind what Moses is writing about in verse 18. CONTEXT…

Because Israel sinned – they said that they could not take the land while Joshua and Caleb said they could (sin of unbelief – cf. Hebrews 3:9) - God determined after intervention by Moses to not destroy the people, but rather to not allow any of the living to pass into the land of promise. This covered the people to the fourth generation.

This passage does not state and has nothing to do with people being “born in sin”.
It is the negligent reading of passages such as the above that promote such spurious ideas. No where does the Bible teach that people are “born in” or “inherit” sin. Sin is something you do and held accountable for.

CONTEXT is a beautiful thing
 
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Ormly

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Numbers 14:18 –

“The LORD is longsuffering and abundant in mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He by no means clears the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation.”

Please read the whole chapter and keep in mind what Moses is writing about in verse 18. CONTEXT…

Because Israel sinned – they said that they could not take the land while Joshua and Caleb said they could (sin of unbelief – cf. Hebrews 3:9) - God determined after intervention by Moses to not destroy the people, but rather to not allow any of the living to pass into the land of promise. This covered the people to the fourth generation.

This passage does not state and has nothing to do with people being “born in sin”.
It is the negligent reading of passages such as the above that promote such spurious ideas. No where does the Bible teach that people are “born in” or “inherit” sin. Sin is something you do and held accountable for.

CONTEXT is a beautiful thing

Sure. You are a child of someone, right? How old are you now that being a child of that someone hasn't changed?
Obviously you are not an innocent baby, correct?
 
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