Infant Baptism, why do you reject it?

mark75 · Apr 12, 2006

In baptism, original sin is forgiven, but the sinful nature remains. The sinful nature remains until we die (see Romans 7 & 8) and are given new bodies. Thus we say that the Christian is simul iustus et peccator: simultaneously justified and sinful. Hense Jesus' satement: "The Spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."

I see the explanation, now. From the Baptist side:

The sinful nature procedes from original sin; therefore, to do away with original sin, in effect, also does away with the sinful nature. Instead, we say that rather than original sin being taken away, it is covered by the blood of Christ. This explains how one can be saved, yet still have a propensity toward sin. Where I was having trouble with that explanation was in the fact that I have never seen a real difference between the two. The second procedes from the former. Hope that makes sense.

Mark

TexasSky · Apr 12, 2006

Melethiel said:
It does not lose it's power. No one has said that it does.

Parents brought their infants to Jesus to bless them, and he said "let the little children come to me". Now, did they come, or did their parents bring them? Is there a difference?

There are such people in any group, whether they were baptized as infants or baptized later.

Okay, we've established that faith is trust, not head knowledge. If so, why can't infants have faith? They may not have the mental capability to understand everything, but they can certainly trust.

Let me make sure I understand you correctly.

If Jeffrey Dahmar, Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, Adolph Hitler, and Joseph Stalin were all baptized as tiny infants, and never again repented in their life - they will go to heaven because their parents had them baptized in your church?

Wow.

jckstraw72 · Apr 12, 2006

If Jeffrey Dahmar, Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, Adolph Hitler, and Joseph Stalin were all baptized as tiny infants, and never again repented in their life - they will go to heaven because their parents had them baptized in your church?

whooooa whoa whoa not at all. Baptism regenerates us, makes us born again....gives us the grace to work with God in overcoming sin. Baptism is NOT a guarantee of salvation--anyone can choose to not use the grace given to them.

Melethiel · Apr 12, 2006

TexasSky said:
Let me make sure I understand you correctly.

If Jeffrey Dahmar, Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, Adolph Hitler, and Joseph Stalin were all baptized as tiny infants, and never again repented in their life - they will go to heaven because their parents had them baptized in your church?

Wow.

Did I say that? I don't believe I did. One always has the choice to reject the grace given them.

KEPLER · Apr 12, 2006

TexasSky said:
Let me make sure I understand you correctly.

If Jeffrey Dahmar, Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, Adolph Hitler, and Joseph Stalin were all baptized as tiny infants, and never again repented in their life - they will go to heaven because their parents had them baptized in your church?

Wow.

Clearly, you do not understand correctly.

No one ever said that, no one ever implied that.

Lynn73 · Apr 12, 2006

jckstraw72 said:
whooooa whoa whoa not at all. Baptism regenerates us, makes us born again....gives us the grace to work with God in overcoming sin. Baptism is NOT a guarantee of salvation--anyone can choose to not use the grace given to them.

Being dunked in water cannot magically make someone saved or born again. It didn't me and it won't anyone else either. If a person goes into the water unsaved, with no real belief, he will come out of the water just as unsaved as when he went in. There is no magic grace in the water. By grace are ye saved through FAITH not by grace are ye saved by being dunked in water. Without faith it's impossible to be saved and water doesn't magically instill faith in anyone.

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/salvatio/baptsave.htm

winsome · Apr 12, 2006

Lynn73 said:
Being dunked in water cannot magically make someone saved or born again. It didn't me and it won't anyone else either. If a person goes into the water unsaved, with no real belief, he will come out of the water just as unsaved as when he went in. There is no magic grace in the water. By grace are ye saved through FAITH not by grace are ye saved by being dunked in water. Without faith it's impossible to be saved and water doesn't magically instill faith in anyone.

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/salvatio/baptsave.htm

I don't think anyone said that water could magically save someone. God doesn't work by magic. He works by his power, the power of the Holy Spirit. In Baptism it is God's power that forgives sin, cleanses us from the effects of original sin, and transfers us out of the power of Satan into God's Kingdom.

Oblio · Apr 12, 2006

To deny the efficacy of the Grace of God working through His Creation (in this case water), is to cast doubt upon the Incarnation that makes possible our Salvation.

TexasSky · Apr 12, 2006

jckstraw72 said:
whooooa whoa whoa not at all. Baptism regenerates us, makes us born again....gives us the grace to work with God in overcoming sin. Baptism is NOT a guarantee of salvation--anyone can choose to not use the grace given to them.

I agree with what you said, which is why I asked my question. When I asked, earlier, when infant Baptism stopped working as an erase of sin I was told it didn't stop.

TexasSky · Apr 12, 2006

Melethiel said:
Did I say that? I don't believe I did. One always has the choice to reject the grace given them.

I certainly feel like you said that.
I asked you at what point the infant baptism's power over sin was "done" and specified examples based on age and based on actions.

You replied that its power never ends.

And how do you define "rejection of grace" in context of infant baptism never losing its power over sin?

Some of those I named would claim they never made a conscious choice to reject or accept grace.

TexasSky · Apr 12, 2006

KEPLER said:
Clearly, you do not understand correctly.

No one ever said that, no one ever implied that.

Then please explain to me what they did mean and/or imply when I specifically asked how long the power of infant baptism lasted in regards to forgiveness of sins? In my question I specified examples of, "Does it end when the 2 year old steals a toy?" Etc., and I was told, "It never ends."

I am not trying to be difficult. I really don't see the difference. Either the power of forgiveness that some claims comes from infant Baptism ends at some point, or it doesn't end. I was told it doesn't end.

Lynn73 · Apr 12, 2006

Oblio said:
To deny the efficacy of the Grace of God working through His Creation (in this case water), is to cast doubt upon the Incarnation that makes possible our Salvation.

Denial that God uses physical water to cleanse from sin doesn't equal denial of the Incarnation of Christ. Some of us simple don't believe the Bible teaches water baptism provides salvation and that has absolutely nothing to do with belief in the Incarnation. For further info as to why some of us can't believe water baptism grants salvation, see the link I provided.

jckstraw72 · Apr 12, 2006

Denial that God uses physical water to cleanse from sin doesn't equal denial of the Incarnation of Christ. Some of us simple don't believe the Bible teaches water baptism provides salvation and that has absolutely nothing to do with belief in the Incarnation. For further info as to why some of us can't believe water baptism grants salvation, see the link I provided.

its a denial of God's historic use of the creation to communicate with His people and to apply grace to them. Christ became a part of creation. God has always worked through creation.

KEPLER · Apr 12, 2006

TexasSky said:
Then please explain to me what they did mean and/or imply when I specifically asked how long the power of infant baptism lasted in regards to forgiveness of sins? In my question I specified examples of, "Does it end when the 2 year old steals a toy?" Etc., and I was told, "It never ends."

Baptism does not grant the power to be sinless. No one has ever argued that it has. A child's sins are most certainly forgiven...until when only God knows. There is no such thing as an "age of accountability" so no one can give you a specific time. We leave that up to God. As the child matures and grows in the faith, he or she may end up leaving it. That does not mean that they were not forgiven up to the point that they chose not to believe. They were. There is no such thing as "once saved, always saved". That child was a child of God, and chose not to be.

IF that child returns to the faith at some point later in life, the original baptism is still in effect. There is no need to be rebaptized, and there is every reason to believe that being re-baptized is a sin, since the implication is that God didn't do it right the first time.

I am not trying to be difficult. I really don't see the difference. Either the power of forgiveness that some claims comes from infant Baptism ends at some point, or it doesn't end. I was told it doesn't end.

You are still making the typical Baptist mistake in that you are assuming that baptism is something that we do. It is not. The efficacy of God's Grace does not depend on the person's faith. Faith is what apprehends the Grace.

We are NOT "saved by faith"!!!! We are saved BY Grace, through faith.

Baptism is something that God does TO US. It IS NOT something we do as an act of obedience. Baptism is not a command. Baptism is an invitation.

Baptism is not "magic water". It is the Holy Spirit working through the water. WHY God chose the method is not up for discussion. He did. Period. I suppose he could have chosen grape leaves or frog legs. Who knows??? Why did He choose a serpent on a stick? Who knows? But He did. If you deny it, then you implicitly deny every single miracle in the Bible.

God has power over death, for crying out loud.

Lynn73 · Apr 12, 2006

jckstraw72 said:
its a denial of God's historic use of the creation to communicate with His people and to apply grace to them. Christ became a part of creation. God has always worked through creation.

God is quite able and does impart grace to us through our faith in Him quite apart from physical water. There's no rule that says God has to do everything in a physical manner or using physical means. Water baptism symbolizes what's already taken place in the believer. It cannot and will not provide you with salvation. Once again, by grace are ye saved through faith. To say that God has to use water to save people when His word says something quite different is rather absurd, imho. Physical water will only cleanse the flesh, it is the blood of Christ applied because of our faith that cleanses us from all sin.

KEPLER said:
There is no such thing as "once saved, always saved".

I think that's quite debatable.

KEPLER · Apr 12, 2006

Lynn73 said:
To say that God has to use water to save people when His word says something quite different is rather absurd, imho. Physical water will only cleanse the flesh, it is the blood of Christ applied because of our faith that cleanses us from all sin.

Hmmm.... the following also seem "rather absurd":

God healing people through a snake on a stick.
God speaking through a burning bush
God leading people in a pillar of cloud
God living in a box
God arriving on earth as a baby
God dying on a cross
And then God coming back to life

Also, nobody has ever said that God "has to" use water. That was God's decision, not ours.

jckstraw72 · Apr 12, 2006

talking donkeys are also absurd.

KEPLER · Apr 12, 2006

jckstraw72 said:
talking donkeys are also absurd.

Doh! I always forget that one! I'm such an ass!

Lynn73 · Apr 12, 2006

You guys believe whatever you want. In my opinion it contradicts Scripture. Best I can do is agree to disagree and pray for those who thing water bapism saves them.

jckstraw72 · Apr 12, 2006

Doh! I always forget that one! I'm such an ass!

a talking ass perhaps?

You guys believe whatever you want. In my opinion it contradicts Scripture. Best I can do is agree to disagree and pray for those who thing water bapism saves them.

once again, no one is saying that baptism is a guarantee of salvation.

Infant Baptism, why do you reject it?

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