Infant baptism vs Child dedication

[TheDag]

I posted this in the Lutheran forum as well but thought people here might be able to provide some info as well.


From what I've been told infant baptism means in the Lutheran church and what I've observed of infant baptism in the Lutheran & Anglican churches and what I've observed of child dedication ceremonies in the Baptist, Uniting and Salvation Army churches they seem to be the same thing. Also Confirmation in the Lutheran church and adult baptism also seem to be the same thing as each other. I have had plenty of people tell me they aren't the same thing but when I ask how are they different nobody has been able to give me an answer. So is there anyone here who can say with proof that they are different or are we as christians getting caught up in unneccesary endless debates on baptism?

Please note when I talk about confirmation I am talking about when the person decides they are ready to be confirmed then they get confirmed. This is the belief of how it should be done in Australian Lutheran churches and Anglican churches but it isn't always practised that way. Often people do not realise they don't have to be confirmed straight after finishing sunday school so they are.

 

[ps139]

I have no idea about the Anglicans or Lutherans, but Catholic baptism is viewed very differently that Baptist baptism, in which we believe there is a real effect on the soul of the person baptized, and it is a personal committment but also much, much more. We believe it is how one is born again - through water and the spirit. Baptist churches do not believe in sacraments, they would not view it in the same way.

I'm sure someone can give a better answer than me!

 

[Skripper]

I don't understand the question.

 

[ps139]

I think it is simply what is the difference between Catholic baptism and those of other denominations.

 

[JJM]

I think the difference is that Baptism bestows graces that a simple dedication doesn't see this http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#VII

 

[Skripper]

If that's the question, then there is no difference between Catholic baptisms and other valid baptisms, although there is different beliefs among different Christian groups surrounding what baptism is/does.

 

[Miss Shelby]

Baptism in Catholic theology replaces circumcision in Jewish theology? Or so I was taught?

Michelle

 

[ps139]

If that's the question, then there is no difference between Catholic baptisms and other valid baptisms, although there is different beliefs among different Christian groups surrounding what baptism is/does.

Good point. A proper baptism is a sacrament regardless of denomination or what people feel about it.

 

[Skripper]

Baptism in Catholic theology replaces circumcision in Jewish theology? Or so I was taught?

Michelle

That . . . and more.

 

[Skripper]

Good point. A proper baptism is a sacrament regardless of denomination or what people feel about it.

And its effects are what they are, independent of one's beliefs.

 

[TheDag]

Baptism in Catholic theology replaces circumcision in Jewish theology?

That . . . and more.

Could you explain what the more is

I think the difference is that Baptism bestows graces that a simple dedication doesn't

I had a look at this link and in one place near the beginning it says baptism is essential for salvation but later on gives an example of a situation where someone can be saved without baptism. Is it essential? Or is water baptism essential?

Just so people know where I'm coming from I'll explain my views. I don't believe water baptism is essential but this doesn't mean it should be discarded but rather practiced where possible.
I believe a spiritual baptism is essential (john 3). In john chapter 3 I believe the water refers to physical birth (many translations use the word flesh rather than water).
i was baptised as an infant and confirmed when 14yo both in the Lutheran church and am glad about that.

I don't understand the question

I will attempt to explain. Over the years I have heard endless debates/arguments about baptism. Generally one side is saying infant baptism is wrong and the other side is saying waiting till people are older is wrong. In churches that practice infant baptism there is also confirmation. In churches that practice adult baptism there is a child dedication ceremony. My view (based on involvement and observing these in 5 different denominations) is that what baptists call baptism is the same as confirmation and what we call infant baptism they would call child dedication. Is my understanding totally wrong or are people debating something simply because different groups have a different definition of the word baptism? hope that helps

 

[D'Ann]

One of the Seven Sacraments of the Christian Church; frequently called the "first sacrament", the "door of the sacraments", and the "door of the Church". The subject will be treated under the following headings:

• I. Authoritative Statement of Doctrine
  II. Etymology
  III. Definition
  IV. Types
  V. Institution of the Sacrament
  VI. Matter and Form of the Sacrament
  VII. Conditional Baptism
  VIII. Rebaptism
  IX. Necessity of Baptism
  X. Substitutes for the Sacrament
  XI. Unbaptized Infants
  XII. Effects of Baptism
  XIII. Minister of the Sacrament
  XIV. Recipient of Baptism
  XV. Adjuncts of Baptism
  XVI, Ceremonies of Baptism
  XVII. Metaphorical Baptism

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm

Click on the highligted area that you are most interested in... or click on all of them... I'm sure you will find your answer... plus you will have more questions... and questions are a good thing. Welcome to the OBOB.

God's Peace,

Debbie

 

[Skripper]

Could you explain what the more is


I had a look at this link and in one place near the beginning it says baptism is essential for salvation but later on gives an example of a situation where someone can be saved without baptism. Is it essential? Or is water baptism essential?

Just so people know where I'm coming from I'll explain my views. I don't believe water baptism is essential but this doesn't mean it should be discarded but rather practiced where possible.
I believe a spiritual baptism is essential (john 3). In john chapter 3 I believe the water refers to physical birth (many translations use the word flesh rather than water).
i was baptised as an infant and confirmed when 14yo both in the Lutheran church and am glad about that.


I will attempt to explain. Over the years I have heard endless debates/arguments about baptism. Generally one side is saying infant baptism is wrong and the other side is saying waiting till people are older is wrong. In churches that practice infant baptism there is also confirmation. In churches that practice adult baptism there is a child dedication ceremony. My view (based on involvement and observing these in 5 different denominations) is that what baptists call baptism is the same as confirmation and what we call infant baptism they would call child dedication. Is my understanding totally wrong or are people debating something simply because different groups have a different definition of the word baptism? hope that helps

"Scriptural baptism" is water baptism and is, normatively speaking, required for salvation, though there are exceptions. The "more" is that it is regenerative; it is the scriptural way one is "born again." Sorry, I'd like to expound more, but that's all I have time for now.

 

[bigsierra]

With Infant Baptism the baby walks, err crawls, oh lets just say, is carried away without Original Sin and part of the Church.

With a dedication a baby is carried away with none of that. They just have the hope they will someday accept Christ. It's silly to have a "better" covenant and to think that a child can't become a part of the community in a real way, as it was under the old covenant.

 

[JJM]

I had a look at this link and in one place near the beginning it says baptism is essential for salvation but later on gives an example of a situation where someone can be saved without baptism. Is it essential? Or is water baptism essential?

In general Water Baptism is necessary for salvation. However Catholics believe in three other ways which the graces from water baptism can be given. The first is baptism of intent (someone wants to be baptized but dies before one can) the second is baptism of blood (someone in martyred before being baptism), the third I don't think is official dogma but it is generally believed and that is baptism of ignorance (someone dieing not knowing they need to be baptized) however If someone knows that the graces bestowed at water baptism are necessary for salvation and choose not to be baptized then they will go to Hell because they are rejecting God’s salvation and God won't force it on them.

 

[JJM]

I will attempt to explain. Over the years I have heard endless debates/arguments about baptism. Generally one side is saying infant baptism is wrong and the other side is saying waiting till people are older is wrong. In churches that practice infant baptism there is also confirmation. In churches that practice adult baptism there is a child dedication ceremony. My view (based on involvement and observing these in 5 different denominations) is that what baptists call baptism is the same as confirmation and what we call infant baptism they would call child dedication. Is my understanding totally wrong or are people debating something simply because different groups have a different definition of the word baptism? hope that helps

The difference is that Baptism confers Graces that opens one heart to Jesus and helps one to live a moral life and these graces aren't given at a dedication and heals the rift of Original sin. So one shouldn't deny them this. Confirmation gives other graces but Catholics have started doing it later because in the middle ages the bishops, not priests, started doing it, for some reason, and they couldn't get around to all the parishes so when he visited yours everyone was confirmed. Personally I also think we should do this as babies but it will never happen because it has become some what of a right of passage in Catholic culture and because these Graces aren’t necessary for salvation it doesn’t matter.

 

[TheDag]

So when Jesus is talking to nicodemus and says you must be born of water and spirit what does that mean. (note some translations don't use the word water but rather flesh)

 

[SVH]

From what I understand having gone to many different churches is that dedication is *NOT* Baptism - there is no water involved. The parents/family go up to the front of the church and the congregation/parents are asked to help this child grow in the love of Christ. A prayer is said for the parents and child and that is the end of the dedication. Personally, I struggled with this and to us as a family it almost seemed like a non event. We had our children dedicated initially in the Baptist Church, a short prayer said and it was over - the service went on as usual - it wasn't anything special. I am a confirmed Catholic and we talked together about the dedication and decided to Baptise our children in the Catholic church. It was incredibly beautiful, steeped in wonderful symbolism and our children have remembered it fondly, talked about it for weeks afterwards. It was a special time for our family and friends. Naturally, the Baptist Pastor didn't agree with what we did, but our family won't ever forget that special time together when all 3 of our children were Baptised with water and oil. Father James then sat down on the stairs at the Baptismal and with his arms around all of our children talked to them about what happened and how special they are to God. You cannot compare that with a short prayer for the parents and children in a dedication.
JMHO
Regards, Sam

 

[Skripper]

So when Jesus is talking to nicodemus and says you must be born of water and spirit what does that mean. (note some translations don't use the word water but rather flesh)

"You must be born of 'flesh' and spirit."????

Never heard that before. Are you sure about that? I'm not aware of any translations that don't use the word "water." Jesus is absolutely talking about water baptism. He and his disciples immediately go out, right after that, doing just that, baptizing. Moreover, there are very few biblical passages that the Catholic Church has, specifically and infallibly interpreted . . . but this is one of them. Finally, (to my knowledge), you will find exactly zero references in the writings of any of early Christians to support the belief that Jesus was not talking about water baptism in John 3:5.

 

[marciadietrich]

"You must be born of 'flesh' and spirit."????

Never heard that before. Are you sure about that? I'm not aware of any translations that don't use the word "water."

Hello Dave,

I've never seen that translated that way, but will check. Still, I think more likely that many protestants explain away water in this verse by equating it to being born physically and the woman's water breaking. It is a ridiculous stretch to wrench water baptism out of the context.

Marcia