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Ponder7

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Just registered today. I’m glad this forum exists. I’m a Christian and have read the Bible with emphasis on the New Testament. I believe the Bible is wonderful, inspirational, devotional, but the one thing it cannot be is historically accurate.

The gospels differ, which isn’t the issue. In many instances they have conflicting detail which cannot be reconciled. Matthew and Luke differ on Joseph’s father, Mark and Acts differ on the circumstances of Judas’ death, Mark and John differ on what day of the week Jesus died. Matthew has wise men visiting baby Jesus, Luke has shedherds. Mark and Matthew differ on when the stone was rolled away from Jesus’ tomb. Mark and Luke differ on when the curtain was torn at the temple. I could go on and on and on. Any thoughts?
 

hedrick

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Just registered today. I’m glad this forum exists. I’m a Christian and have read the Bible with emphasis on the New Testament. I believe the Bible is wonderful, inspirational, devotional, but the one thing it cannot be is historically accurate.

The gospels differ, which isn’t the issue. In many instances they have conflicting detail which cannot be reconciled. Matthew and Luke differ on Joseph’s father, Mark and Acts differ on the circumstances of Judas’ death, Mark and John differ on what day of the week Jesus died. Matthew has wise men visiting baby Jesus, Luke has shedherds. Mark and Matthew differ on when the stone was rolled away from Jesus’ tomb. Mark and Luke differ on when the curtain was torn at the temple. I could go on and on and on. Any thoughts?
There are books published showing ways to get around these kinds of observations. Personally I think what you say is obviously right, but lots of people disagree.

The challenge is to say why we care about the Bible if it's not God's message directly to us.
 
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Abaxvahl

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Just registered today. I’m glad this forum exists. I’m a Christian and have read the Bible with emphasis on the New Testament. I believe the Bible is wonderful, inspirational, devotional, but the one thing it cannot be is historically accurate.

The gospels differ, which isn’t the issue. In many instances they have conflicting detail which cannot be reconciled. Matthew and Luke differ on Joseph’s father, Mark and Acts differ on the circumstances of Judas’ death, Mark and John differ on what day of the week Jesus died. Matthew has wise men visiting baby Jesus, Luke has shedherds. Mark and Matthew differ on when the stone was rolled away from Jesus’ tomb. Mark and Luke differ on when the curtain was torn at the temple. I could go on and on and on. Any thoughts?

There are commentaries dealing with all these matters if one is interested (I'd recommend Patristic commentaries especially, and the commentaries of St. Theophylact of Ohrid as many are in English now, and that of Fr. Cornelius), I personally am not phased by any of these things and it doesn't bother me. But I do know that no true contradiction exists in Scripture because inspiration is incompatible with error, and if there is error then the whole pretty soon is worthless. Due to grace the Church has not recognized error in it and neither can it, so we know there is none.
 
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sandman

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Just registered today. I’m glad this forum exists. I’m a Christian and have read the Bible with emphasis on the New Testament. I believe the Bible is wonderful, inspirational, devotional, but the one thing it cannot be is historically accurate.

The gospels differ, which isn’t the issue. In many instances they have conflicting detail which cannot be reconciled. Matthew and Luke differ on Joseph’s father, Mark and Acts differ on the circumstances of Judas’ death, Mark and John differ on what day of the week Jesus died. Matthew has wise men visiting baby Jesus, Luke has shedherds. Mark and Matthew differ on when the stone was rolled away from Jesus’ tomb. Mark and Luke differ on when the curtain was torn at the temple. I could go on and on and on. Any thoughts?

Welcome...and God bless.

I have thoughts regarding the gospels ....I do not believe there are any errors in the gospels only errors in our understanding ...
I would be happy to address these one at a time ..if you want we could start with Judas.
 
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Ponder7

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There are commentaries dealing with all these matters if one is interested (I'd recommend Patristic commentaries especially, and the commentaries of St. Theophylact of Ohrid as many are in English now, and that of Fr. Cornelius), I personally am not phased by any of these things and it doesn't bother me. But I do know that no true contradiction exists in Scripture because inspiration is incompatible with error, and if there is error then the whole pretty soon is worthless. Due to grace the Church has not recognized error in it and neither can it, so we know there is none.
There is a multitude of contradictions which cannot be reconciled.
 
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Ponder7

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Welcome...and God bless.

I have thoughts regarding the gospels ....I do not believe there are any errors in the gospels only errors in our understanding ...
I would be happy to address these one at a time ..if you want we could start with Judas.
Who bought the field of blood?
 
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Silverback

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Just registered today. I’m glad this forum exists. I’m a Christian and have read the Bible with emphasis on the New Testament. I believe the Bible is wonderful, inspirational, devotional, but the one thing it cannot be is historically accurate.

The gospels differ, which isn’t the issue. In many instances they have conflicting detail which cannot be reconciled. Matthew and Luke differ on Joseph’s father, Mark and Acts differ on the circumstances of Judas’ death, Mark and John differ on what day of the week Jesus died. Matthew has wise men visiting baby Jesus, Luke has shedherds. Mark and Matthew differ on when the stone was rolled away from Jesus’ tomb. Mark and Luke differ on when the curtain was torn at the temple. I could go on and on and on. Any thoughts?

I agree that the scripture can have errors, not the gospel message, but locations, dates, times, that type of thing, it also has "Knotty" verses as Martin Luther would say, and sometimes we don't have an answer for them.

So, where does that leave us? The Bible is the inspired word of God, it contains everything necessary for our salvation. God has preserved the Gospel message...WE ARE SAVED BY GODS GRACE FOR CHRIST SAKE THROUGH FAITH, WHEN BE BELIEVE AND TRUST IN HIS PROMISES TO SAVE US. The bible may not be inerrant in matters of geography, names, dates, and time.

But for those of us who believe the Gospel message, we take it in stride, always knowing the just shall live by faith.
 
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Ponder7

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I agree that the scripture can have errors, not the gospel message, but locations, dates, times, that type of thing, it also has "Knotty" verses as Martin Luther would say, and sometimes we don't have an answer for them.

So, where does that leave us? The Bible is the inspired word of God, it contains everything necessary for our salvation. God has preserved the Gospel message...WE ARE SAVED BY GODS GRACE FOR CHRIST SAKE THROUGH FAITH, WHEN BE BELIEVE AND TRUST IN HIS PROMISES TO SAVE US. The bible may not be inerrant in matters of geography, names, dates, and time.

But for those of us who believe the Gospel message, we take it in stride, always knowing the just shall live by faith.
I can accept your answer, but not the fundamentalists.
 
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St_Worm2

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There is a multitude of contradictions which cannot be reconciled.
Hello Ponder7, it certainly seemed that way to me 35 years ago when I was saved and began to read the Bible as a Christian. However, I have come to a very different understanding of all of the apparent Biblical contradictions (that seemed so troubling to me at first blush) after so many years of studying the Bible (and I believe that you will too :oldthumbsup:).

This is a discussion forum, so why not ask others here for their help, one "contradiction" at a time :) It would help for you to include the Scriptures that seem contradictory to you in your OP/Post for all of us to see (or references to those verses or passages anyway).

For now though, let's start with the first contradiction in your list above, the one that concerns Joseph having two fathers.

Matthew 1
16 Jacob was the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, by whom Jesus was born, who is called the Messiah.

Luke 3
23 When He began His ministry, Jesus Himself was about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, the son of Joseph, the son of Eli (or Heli).

Joseph is the natural son of Jacob.

Joseph is also the "son" of Eli (or Heli) because of his marriage to Mary.

This tells us that the Davidic bloodline in Luke is Mary's lineage (which runs from David through Nathan), not Joseph's (which runs from David through Solomon). This is how genealogies were written in 1st Century Israel (IOW, women were rarely included). Interestingly however, Tamar, the daughter-in-law of Judah, Rahab, the Harlot, and Ruth, the Moabite, are included as part of the bloodline that runs from Abraham, to David, to Joseph, to Jesus in Matthew 1.

God bless you!

--David
 
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Ponder7

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Hello Ponder7, it certainly seemed that way to me 35 years ago when I was saved and began to read the Bible as a Christian. However, I have come to a very different understanding of all of the apparent Biblical contradictions (that seemed so troubling to me at first blush) after so many years of studying the Bible (and I believe that you will too :oldthumbsup:).

This is a discussion forum, so why not ask others here for their help, one "contradiction" at a time :) It would help for you to include the Scriptures that seem contradictory to you in your OP/Post for all of us to see (or references to those verses or passages anyway).

For now though, let's start with the first contradiction in your list above, the one that concerns Joseph having two fathers.

Matthew 1
16 Jacob was the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, by whom Jesus was born, who is called the Messiah.

Luke 3
23 When He began His ministry, Jesus Himself was about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, the son of Joseph, the son of Eli (or Heli).

Joseph is the natural son of Jacob.

Joseph is also the "son" of Eli (or Heli) because of his marriage to Mary.

This tells us that the Davidic bloodline in Luke is Mary's lineage (which runs from David through Nathan), not Joseph's (which runs from David through Solomon). This is how genealogies were written in 1st Century Israel (IOW, women were rarely included). Interestingly however, Tamar, the daughter-in-law of Judah, Rahab, the Harlot, and Ruth, the Moabite, are included as part of the bloodline that runs from Abraham, to David, to Joseph, to Jesus in Matthew 1.

God bless you!

--David
No where in Luke does it state that the genealogy is from Mary.
 
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sandman

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Who bought the field of blood?

Is that it ….I thought you would want to know how he died and when he died.

Judas purchased the land himself …Not from the reward money (30 pieces of silver) he had purchased the property field (chorion) “a plot of land” (Act 1:18) earlier from money he stole from the bag …he was the treasurer and also a thief (Jhn 12:6)

The 30 pcs of silver were used to buy a potters field (agros) “a large field” by the priests ( Mat 27:5-10) that was used to burry strangers.
 
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mikeforjesus

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Matthew and Luke differ on Joseph’s father
I have read it is common in Jewish time that if a person marries and has no children and leaves widow that the brother of that person should raise children to him that Jacob and Heli are brothers he is considered child of one but he has an actual father or it could be same person it may have been known that time the names meant same thing if they did or could be Joseph father in law in one to show genealogy from father and father in law

Mark and Acts differ on the circumstances of Judas’ death

One mentions he hanged himself one mentions falling headlong they are same but one is more descriptive to say what happend after he hanged himself he probably hanged himself on a height and the rope he used to hang himself probably broke and even if he did not fall from his face initially eventually he probably flipped and fell on face the account also says he bought a field but we know he threw the money but priests bought field for him on behalf of him to kill himself and he accepted it for himself so it is on behalf of him because he accepted it it means he purchased it


Mark and John differ on what day of the week Jesus died

One says preparation day one day before sabbath


The preparation day is day before sabbath so no contradiction it is


Matthew has wise men visiting baby Jesus, Luke has shepherds


They both visited Jesus at different times


Mark and Matthew differ on when the stone was rolled away from Jesus’ tomb.

One mentions when it was actually rolled away that soldiers saw angel of Lord sitting on stone and in other account it was just after event when Mary Magdalene saw it and left and then other account where they came back to see the angels one saying seeing two but other mentioned one said to go back they are both right there was 2 but only 1 said to go back


Mark and Luke differ on when the curtain was torn at the temple.

One mentions curtain was torn which was before Jesus died it was not fully torn yet but in other account says it was torn after Jesus died but not just torn but top to bottom it was not fully torn yet until Jesus died it was torn at bottom but not completed till he died from top to bottom
 
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St_Worm2

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Mark and Acts differ on the circumstances of Judas’ death.....
Who bought the field of blood?
Hello again Ponder, rather than answering these two (related) "contradictions" for you myself, I'll let the folks at the Christian apologetics site called, "GotQuestions.org", do that for me this time. I recommend them (www.gotquestions.org) as a great place to go with your theological questions/problems, at least as a starting place as you begin looking into them.

Here's both the link, and the article (also, they have additional links at the bottom of each of their articles to complimentary articles/topics which may further aid you in your study).

So go here: How did Judas die? | GotQuestions.org Or just read the article below.

How did Judas die?

The death of Judas Iscariot was a suicide committed after he was filled with remorse (but not repentance) for his betrayal of Jesus. Matthew and Luke (in the book of Acts) both mention some details of Judas’s death, and reconciling the details between the two accounts has presented some difficulties.
Matthew says that Judas died by hanging. Here is the account in Matthew’s Gospel: "So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. The chief priests picked up the coins and said, ‘It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money.’ So they decided to use the money to buy the potter’s field as a burial place for foreigners. That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day" (Matthew 27:5–8).

Luke says that Judas fell into a field and that his body ruptured. Here is the account in Acts: "With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood" (Acts 1:18–19).

Which account is correct? Did Judas die by hanging, or did he die by falling? Or are both true? A related question is, Did Judas buy the field, or did the priests buy the field?

Concerning how Judas died, here is a simple reconciliation of the facts: Judas hanged himself in the potter’s field (Matthew 27:5), and that is how he died. Then, after his body had begun to decay and bloat, the rope broke, or the branch of the tree he was using broke, and his body fell, bursting open on the land of the potter’s field (Acts 1:18–19). Note that Luke does not say that Judas died from the fall, only that his body fell. The Acts passage presumes Judas’s hanging, as a man falling down in a field does not normally result in his body bursting open. Only decomposition and a fall from a height could cause a body to burst open. So Matthew mentions the actual cause of death, and Luke focuses more on the horror surrounding it.

Concerning who paid for the field, here are two possible ways to reconcile the facts: 1) Judas was promised the thirty pieces of silver several days before Jesus’ arrest (Mark 14:11). Sometime during the days leading up to his betrayal of Jesus, Judas made arrangements to purchase a field, although no money had yet been transferred. After the deed was done, Judas was paid, but he then returned the money to the chief priests. The priests, who considered the silver to be blood money, completed the transaction that Judas had begun and bought the field. 2) When Judas threw the thirty pieces of silver down, the priests took the money and used it to buy the potter’s field (Matthew 27:7). Judas may not have purchased the field personally, but he provided the money for the transaction and could then be said to be the purchaser.

--David
 
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St_Worm2

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No where in Luke does it state that the genealogy is from Mary.
This is how genealogies were written in 1st Century Israel (IOW, women were rarely included).
Understanding the Bible often requires that we understand a bit, or a lot of the historical context, because how and why things were done/said in the 1st Century can be very different from the way that we do/say things today in the 21st Century ;) Also, we know that Mary, like Joseph, was of the House of David (through David's son "Nathan", not Solomon, as I said in post #10 above), and that her father was "Eli" (or "Heli").

--David
 
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Ponder7

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Understanding the Bible often requires that we understand a bit, or a lot of the historical context, because how and why things were done in the 1st Century can be very different from the way that we do things today in the 21st Century ;) Also, we know that Mary, like Joseph, was of the House of David (through David's son "Nathan", not Solomon, as I said in post #10 above), and that her father was "Eli" (or "Heli").

--David
You’re grasping at straws.
 
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Ponder7

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I have read it is common in Jewish time that if a person marries and has no children and leaves widow that the brother of that person should raise children to him that Jacob and Heli are brothers he is considered child of one but he has an actual father or it could be same person but different name




One mentions he hanged himself one mentions falling headlong they are same but one is more descriptive to say what happend after he hanged himself




One says preparation day one day before sabbath


The preparation day is day before sabbath so no contradiction it is





They both visited Jesus at different times




One mentions when it was actually rolled away that soldiers saw angel of Lord sitting on stone and in other account it was just after event when Mary Magdalene saw it and left and then other account where they came back to see the angels one saying seeing two but other mentioned one said to go back they are both right there was 2 but only 1 said to go back

Mark states that Jesus was crucified the morning after the Passover meal. John clearly states he died the prior day. Why the difference? Because John wants to show that Jesus IS the Passover meal.






One mentions curtain was torn which was before Jesus died it was not fully torn yet but in other account says it was torn after Jesus died but not just torn but top to bottom it was not fully torn yet until Jesus died it was torn at bottom but not completed till he died from top to bottom
 
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St_Worm2

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You’re grasping at straws.
Hello @Ponder7, I can understand your reluctance to believe us (as you're new here and we do not know each other), so why not give your pastor a call/or email him (that's what I do when I have questions/problems with the Bible) and have him help you with all of this?

--David
 
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sandman

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Just registered today. I’m glad this forum exists. I’m a Christian and have read the Bible with emphasis on the New Testament. I believe the Bible is wonderful, inspirational, devotional, but the one thing it cannot be is historically accurate.

The gospels differ, which isn’t the issue. In many instances they have conflicting detail which cannot be reconciled. Matthew and Luke differ on Joseph’s father, Mark and Acts differ on the circumstances of Judas’ death, Mark and John differ on what day of the week Jesus died. Matthew has wise men visiting baby Jesus, Luke has shedherds. Mark and Matthew differ on when the stone was rolled away from Jesus’ tomb. Mark and Luke differ on when the curtain was torn at the temple. I could go on and on and on. Any thoughts?

Judas death ...............................

This is a study I did years ago on Judas death ...It is contrary to what is typically taught, but it fits with what is written.

The first thing to remember when it comes too apparent contradictions is “that there are no contradictions in the Bible”. Errors in transmission, deliberate forgeries, mistranslation, or misunderstanding are all causes for what appears, as apparent contradictions.

Matthew 27:5 seems to indicate that Judas hanged himself before the crucifixion.
And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.


Because of the verse in Matthew we have always thought that Judas immediately went out and hanged himself, but the verse in 1Co 15:5 and the records in both Luk 24:33-36 and Jhn 20:20-24 show Judas being present after the resurrection, which is a notable or apparent contradiction.

Because God is perfect, so also is His word in its original form. So when we run across something that doesn’t fit or appears to contradict itself, we must look in one of the above four categories; in this case it is “misunderstanding” of the words “hanged himself” in Mat 27:5


The word translated hanged himself in the King James version is apanchomai from the Greek word apanchô it is used only once in the New Testament.
In classic literature it means to “strangle” or “to choke” and is used figuratively to mean “to choke with anger” or “grief” (1.)The Expositor’s Greek Testament suggests that apanchô points to death by grief rather than literal choking. (2.) This is correct only to the extent that Judas did not die immediately in Matthew 27, but he was extremely grieved over the betrayal This figurative usage is also verified in the classical writings Aristophanes (3.)

(1.) Henry G. Liddell and Robert Scott. A Greek – English Lexicon, rev. by Henry S. Jones {1843; 9th ed., Oxford Press} 1940 p.174
(2.) W. Robertson Nicoll , The Expositor’s Greek Testament, 6 vols. {London Hodder and Stoughton, 1897} 1: 323.
(3.) Aristophanes Vespae 686.



This seems to be what this word “hanged himself” suggest, and would fit with the emotional torment and grief that Judas would be going through.
We can, from a purely human aspect, understand just how one might feel after betraying not just a friend, but also someone who you now realize was the redeemer for Israel.


But there is a greater depth to his betrayal culturally that we must understand in order to fully grasps the agonizing grief that was taking hold of Judas; and that is “the covenant of salt.”
In short: the salt covenant is an oriental custom still in practice today. It means that when you partook in the covenant, be it from salted food, drink, or exchanged a pinch of salt at the marriage ceremony, your words were your bond, you would never …..even at the cost of death, betray that person you had a covenant with.
There is no reference I could give you, at least in American culture that would equal that of the covenant of salt. It is so honored that you could leave a known thief with all your worldly possessions and money, and not worry about a thing, if you had a covenant of salt with that person.
The honorable thing to do if you broke the covenant of salt was to commit suicide, and if you did not, someone else would be obliged to do it for you.
Many references of salted words and salt covenant are found throughout the old and new Testament; Judas, as did the rest of the Apostles had a salt covenant with Jesus.

But if Judas is alive after the resurrection ………..when and how did he die?

Follow the pronouns from verse 3 through 10



Acts 1:1-11

Acts 1:1 The former treaties {scrolls of Luke} have I made O theophilus of all that Jesus began both to do and teach.

2. Until the day in which He was taken up after that He through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles {Luke 6:13-16} whom he had chosen:

3. To whom he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them {the 12 apostles whom he had chosen} forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

4. And being assembled together with them commanded them {the 12} that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father which saith he, ye have heard of me.


5. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


6. When they {the 12} therefore were come together they {the 12} asked of Him, saying, “Lord, wilt Thou at this time restore again the kingdom if Israel?”

7. And He said unto them, {the 12} it is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in His own power.

8. But ye shall receive power after that the holy ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Judaea, and in Samaria and unto the uttermost parts of the earth.

9. And when He had spoken these things, while they {the 12} beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10. And while they {the 12} looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel.

11. Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, which was taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


Sometime between verse 10 and verse 11 Judas Iscariot left to commit suicide. We know this by following the pronouns from verse three to verse 10, speaking of “the apostles whom Jesus had chosen” (in verse two).
In verse eleven it changes from “them” to “ye men of Galilee,” Judas Iscariot was the only non-Galilean, he was from Kerioth, a town in Judea. We do not know how much time took place between verse 10 and 11 but it was sufficient time for Judas to take a hike.

Two things to keep in mind here………First: I didn’t write the book… I understand this is contrary to what most of us have been taught about the death of Judas, but God is the author, and clearly the author shows Judas being alive after the resurrection ….
Secondly: words mean thing! God has a purpose for everything he says, where he say it, why he says it, when he says it, how he says it, and to whom ……….if that is what the Word says, that is what it means ….we just read and believe …………end of story …..well not quite the end ……

what happened to Judas is explained in Acts 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
Even after seeing Jesus at least three times, and having been forgiven by the Lord, it must have been too much for him to cope with. Through his agonizing grief opened himself up to being possessed with the spirit of suicide, impaling himself on a sharp instrument, possibly sword, or a sharp stake.

Some food for thought …. If Judas did kill himself before the ascension …………wouldn’t Jesus be the likely candidate to select a new apostle?


And if Judas did kill himself immediately after the betrayal ….and Jesus did not find it necessary to replace him …………why would the apostles feel it necessary to do so?
 
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sandman

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Sorry dude ...tell it to the author ... God. Two different Greek words used ...as different as the English words lot and field.
and

You are a bit confused ...I didn't write this ↓ my post is #19

The idea that his body fell headfirst after hanging is laughable. After the body would have been cut down, the feet fall first.
 
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