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Indulgences

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Preachers12

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Peace be with you.

The topic of "indulgences" was brought up in another thread (How did you come to embrace Catholicism?) and seemed very interesting and, to many, confusing.  I am far from an expert on the topic, but I wanted to share some thoughts.

To understand indulgences, one <B>must</B> understand two other Catholic beliefs: Forgiveness of Sins and Purgatory. For an even deeper understanding, one should understand the concept of the Communion of Saints also. VERY briefly:

1)&nbsp;Forgiveness of Sins (commonly called "Confession" or "Penance") granted the Church, through it’s priests and bishops, the power of Jesus to forgive sins; and

2) Purgatory is a place where the soul goes after death to purify itself, that is, to remove all stain of sin left as the simple consequence of being human. A soul cannot enter Heaven and still have an attachment to those things earthly, for Heaven is not of the earth. While a soul may be forgiven of sin upon the death of the host (through Confession or Last Rites), it still carries with it a stain left from all sins committed while alive, even those which have been forgiven.

Think of the soul as a white garment upon which wine was spilled. We can remove the wine, but a stain still remains. Until that stain is gone, we won’t wear the garment. To remove the stain, we need to wash it repeatedly and fervently, using the proper ingredients. Purgatory is where our soul is cleansed of the stain of human sin. The proper ingredients to cleanse it are, among others, prayers and indulgences.

An indulgence is a remission of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has been forgiven, brought through the actions of the Church (who has the power to forgive or bind sins), lessening the time a soul spends cleansing itself of sin. Indulgences can be earned in advance of death or after death. Let’s look at it each way using the same analogy from above.

In advance of death, think of an indulgence like "scotch-guard." When we place scotch-guard on an un-stained garment, it is less likely to retain a stain and therefore is easier to cleanse. So it is too with indulgences. They are granted through the Church, which Jesus gave the power over sin to. Exercising that power to forgive sin, the Church, through indulgences, can lessen the time a soul will spend in purgatory. The indulgences are given through blessings, which are accepted by us when we say prayers. It is like atoning for our sins in advance of purgatory.

For those who have already passed on, think of an indulgence as "Shout." We place Shout onto stained garments in order to make the stain easier to remove. After death, while we are in purgatory, those still alive can earn indulgences for us. It is like they are atoning for our sins through their prayers.

God Bless and Stay Safe
 

Reformationist

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Originally posted by Preachers12
It is like atoning for our sins in advance of purgatory.

It is like they are atoning for our sins through their prayers.

Didn't Jesus atone for our sins?&nbsp; Why would we need to atone for them again? :scratch:

&nbsp;
 
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Preachers12

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Originally posted by Reformationist
Didn't Jesus atone for our sins?&nbsp; Why would we need to atone for them again? :scratch:

&nbsp;

Reformationist, Peace be with you.

The initial part of the post on indulgences indicated that to understand them, you had to have an understanding of the doctrine of Forgiveness of Sins, often called "Penance" or "Confession." Your question appears to go beyond that, to&nbsp;a level&nbsp;underlying Forgiveness of Sins.

As I understand your question, you are indicating that you believe that as a result of Jesus’ death, all of our sins are cleansed and we therefore have no need for further forgiveness or atonement. Before I respond further, is that what you meant?

God Bless and Stay Safe
 
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Reformationist

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Originally posted by Preachers12
Before I respond further, is that what you meant?

God Bless and Stay Safe

Hmmm...maybe I just don't understand the "doctrine of Forgiveness of Sins" that the Catholic church teaches.&nbsp; Sorry about that.&nbsp; Do you guys believe that you have to make additional atonement for sins commited after you're saved?&nbsp; If so, what sins did Jesus' death atone for, just those that you had committed before being saved?&nbsp; Sorry if I'm getting this off track.

God bless
 
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Preachers12

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Originally posted by Reformationist
Hmmm...maybe I just don't understand the "doctrine of Forgiveness of Sins" that the Catholic church teaches.&nbsp; Sorry about that.&nbsp; Do you guys believe that you have to make additional atonement for sins commited after you're saved?&nbsp; If so, what sins did Jesus' death atone for, just those that you had committed before being saved?&nbsp; Sorry if I'm getting this off track.

God bless
Reformationist, Peace be with you.

I don't feel that you’re getting this off track with your questions. Your questions, I think, concern&nbsp;underlying issue(s) to the topic. While I can make some assumptions about what you mean, in order to accommodate a better dialog, I need some clarification.&nbsp;

Twice you mention in your questions the word "saved". Once you say "after you’re saved" and the other time "before being saved." What exactly do you mean?

God Bless and Stay Safe
 
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Reformationist

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Originally posted by Preachers12
Reformationist, Peace be with you.

I don't feel that you’re getting this off track with your questions. Your questions, I think, concern&nbsp;underlying issue(s) to the topic.

Thanks for your understanding.

While I can make some assumptions about what you mean, in order to accommodate a better dialog, I need some clarification.

I'll do my best. :) &nbsp;

Twice you mention in your questions the word "saved". Once you say "after you’re saved" and the other time "before being saved." What exactly do you mean?

God Bless and Stay Safe

Are you asking what I mean when I say "saved?"&nbsp; If so, I mean the point at which God takes out our heart of stone and&nbsp;replaces it with a heart of flesh that desires to please our Father.&nbsp; I'm sure that the time in a person's life that this happens varies.&nbsp; I know some people that were saved quite young, and others much older.&nbsp; Basically,&nbsp;as precise as I could get is the time at which you recognize that you&nbsp;desire to live your life according to God's Word.&nbsp; That desire is a result of your salvation.&nbsp; So, I imagine, it would be somewhere around that point in your life.

God bless
 
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Theresa

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"Now, I am not at all concerned about being judged by you or by any human standard; I don't even pass judgement on myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not prove that I am really innocent. The Lord is the one who passes judgement on me." 1 Cor 4:3,4

"Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall." 1 Cor 10:12

"For he is not approved who commends himself, but he whom the Lord commends." 2 Cor 10:18

This is a basic overview of how we view salvation. Basically we do our best here on earth to live the best Christian life we can, and we will find out how we did when the lord commends or rejects us.

Thanx, Luv
Theresa
 
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kern

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Originally posted by Reformationist

Are you asking what I mean when I say "saved?"&nbsp; If so, I mean the point at which God takes out our heart of stone and&nbsp;replaces it with a heart of flesh that desires to please our Father.&nbsp; I'm sure that the time in a person's life that this happens varies.&nbsp; I know some people that were saved quite young, and others much older.&nbsp; Basically,&nbsp;as precise as I could get is the time at which you recognize that you&nbsp;desire to live your life according to God's Word.&nbsp; That desire is a result of your salvation.&nbsp; So, I imagine, it would be somewhere around that point in your life.

Well, remember that Catholics (a) do not believe in predestination, and (b) view salvation as a lifelong process rather than an event. There is no single point in your life in which you go from "unsaved" to "saved".

-Chris
 
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Reformationist

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Originally posted by kern
Well, remember that Catholics (a) do not believe in predestination, and (b) view salvation as a lifelong process rather than an event. There is no single point in your life in which you go from "unsaved" to "saved".

-Chris

Chris,

Two questions.&nbsp; Well, maybe three. ;)&nbsp; What then is the difference between the Catholic view of salvation and sanctification?&nbsp; Is there ever a point where you can believe you are saved?&nbsp; And if not, isn't that absolutely terrifying?&nbsp; I cannot imagine going through life thinking that I might not be saved, or that I could lose my salvation because of something I did. :eek:

God bless

&nbsp;
 
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kern

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Originally posted by Reformationist
And if not, isn't that absolutely terrifying?&nbsp; I cannot imagine going through life thinking that I might not be saved, or that I could lose my salvation because of something I did. :eek:

I don't see it as "terrifying" because you won't lose your salvation accidentally because you happened to tell a lie, or something like that. Remember that under Catholic teaching it is only a mortal sin that causes you to lose your salvation. I don't have the definition of mortal sin at my fingertips now, but basically, you're not going to think you're saved and then "whoops, looks like you were wrong!" because of some sin.

-Chris
 
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Hoonbaba

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Originally posted by Reformationist
Chris,

Two questions.&nbsp; Well, maybe three. ;)&nbsp; What then is the difference between the Catholic view of salvation and sanctification?&nbsp; Is there ever a point where you can believe you are saved?&nbsp; And if not, isn't that absolutely terrifying?&nbsp; I cannot imagine going through life thinking that I might not be saved, or that I could lose my salvation because of something I did. :eek:

God bless

&nbsp;

Hi Reformationist,

I just thought I'd jump in here:&nbsp; To my knowledge the Catholic view of salvation and sanctification is tied together, not separate.

One can acknowlege that he or she is indeed saved (Eph 2:8), but at the same time the believer is being saved (2 Cor 1:18) and that he or she will be saved (Mark 13:13).&nbsp;

Much of their teaching on salvation and sanctification has to do with eschatological matters, since salvation is something that would be a reality at the second coming of Christ (Rom 13:11, 1 Pet 1:5, Heb 9:27, Luke 21:28, Rev 12:10).&nbsp;

That would explain why&nbsp;eternal life was a hope (Titus 1:2, Titus 2:13, Titus 3:7), which is&nbsp;likely&nbsp;the hope of Glory (Col 1:27), since Christ would be made manifest (1 Thess 2:19) and that&nbsp;believers would be with him (1 Thess 4:17), provided that&nbsp;they work out their salvation with fear and trembling (Phil 2:18), so that they wouldn't fall away from Christ.

Does any of this make sense?

If it does, then from a Calvinist perspective, the difference really isn't that much:&nbsp; Calvinists teach that all of God's predestined believers (Eph 1:5, 1:11) will persevere for his name&nbsp;forever.&nbsp; And so the only way to know for sure if a believer is saved is if he or she remains in Christ forever.&nbsp;

Likewise, Catholics teach that believers must persevere for his name.&nbsp; And the only way for Catholics to know for sure if a believer is saved is if he or she remains in Christ forever.

But since neither Calvinists, nor Catholics know the future.&nbsp; Technically they don't know, unless they're in heaven&nbsp;with the rest of the&nbsp;family of God&nbsp;=)

God bless!

-Jason
 
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Preachers12

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Reformist and others who have posted, Peace be with you.

Please pardon my delay, but I just returned from the hospital where my wife gave birth to our first daughter. It was an emergency Ceasarean <sic> and I am only home due to our pets. She and the baby are doing wonderfully. The power of prayer never ceases to amaze me.

I am in a rush and didn't get to read through the posts. I will respond when I get the chance, which may be a while away.

God Bless and Stay Safe
 
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Reformationist

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Originally posted by Preachers12
Reformist and others who have posted, Peace be with you.

Please pardon my delay, but I just returned from the hospital where my wife gave birth to our first daughter. It was an emergency Ceasarean <SIC>and I am only home due to our pets. She and the baby are doing wonderfully. The power of prayer never ceases to amaze me.

I am in a rush and didn't get to read through the posts. I will respond when I get the chance, which may be a while away.

God Bless and Stay Safe

Tend to your family bro!&nbsp; Praise God for the miracle of life!&nbsp; God bless you and yours my brother!
 
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ZooMom

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Oh, congratulations Preachers12! :clap: God is good, and you have been blessed. My prayers and blessings go with you and your lovely family. I hope that your wife recovers quickly and well, and that your precious new daughter continues to grow healthy and happy. :wave:


/me starts to think that she sure does miss having a tiny baby around... :cry:
 
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"This is a basic overview of how we view salvation. Basically we do our best here on earth to live the best Christian life we can, and we will find out how we did when the lord commends or rejects us."

I think that it is weird that a Christian religion would not encourage devout believers to live in SURE AND CERTAIN hope of the resurrection. If you repent, are baptized, give your life to Christ,and are continually renewed in the celebration of the eucharist, I don't understand how you could think you could be rejected by God. In fact, the Bible says quite the contrary.
"Christ does not desire the death of a sinner."
 
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Wolseley

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I think that it is weird that a Christian religion would not encourage devout believers to live in SURE AND CERTAIN hope of the resurrection.
All Catholics have a sure and certain hope of the resurrection.

None of us, however, Catholic or not, have a sure and certain hope of salvation.

Here we get into the ancient and boring debate about "once saved, always saved" and its opposite. From the Catholic perspective, there are plenty of Scriptures to underscore the Catholic view, which is that while God indeed desires the eternal death of no one, you can lose your salvation if you screw up. It's your own action, not God's.
 
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