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Xeno.of.athens

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What is indulgence, really?

It is to show mercy, to extend forgiveness to one who has done wrong and to accept them back into the community of God's people.

It is described by saint Paul in is second letter to the church in Corinth

2 Corinthians 2:5-11
5 Well, if someone has caused distress, it is not myself that he has distressed but, in some measure, all of you, so that I must not be too hard on him.
6 This punishment inflicted on him by so many of you is punishment enough for the man I speak of,
7 and now you must think rather of shewing him indulgence, and comforting him; you must not let him be overwhelmed by excess of grief.
8 Let me entreat you, then, to give him assurance of your good will.
9 The reason why I wrote to you, after all, was to test your loyalty, by seeing whether you would obey me in full.
10 If you shew indulgence to anybody, so do I too; I myself, wherever I have shewn indulgence, have done so in the person of Christ for your sakes,
11 for fear that Satan should get the advantage over us; we know well enough how resourceful he is.

Can one buy mercy, is it possible to purchase forgiveness, is it possible to bribe your way back into favour with God?

I think not.

The Catholic church thinks not.
 

Philip_B

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What is indulgence, really?

It is to show mercy, to extend forgiveness to one who has done wrong and to accept them back into the community of God's people.

It is described by saint Paul in is second letter to the church in Corinth

2 Corinthians 2:5-11
5 Well, if someone has caused distress, it is not myself that he has distressed but, in some measure, all of you, so that I must not be too hard on him.
6 This punishment inflicted on him by so many of you is punishment enough for the man I speak of,
7 and now you must think rather of shewing him indulgence, and comforting him; you must not let him be overwhelmed by excess of grief.
8 Let me entreat you, then, to give him assurance of your good will.
9 The reason why I wrote to you, after all, was to test your loyalty, by seeing whether you would obey me in full.
10 If you shew indulgence to anybody, so do I too; I myself, wherever I have shewn indulgence, have done so in the person of Christ for your sakes,
11 for fear that Satan should get the advantage over us; we know well enough how resourceful he is.

Can one buy mercy, is it possible to purchase forgiveness, is it possible to bribe your way back into favour with God?

I think not.

The Catholic church thinks not.
Had the Church been clearer about that very point, then Martin Luther may not have nailed his Ninety-five Theses to the door of All Saints' Church in Wittenberg on 31 October 1517, and history may well have been very different.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Had the Church been clearer about that very point, then Martin Luther may not have nailed his Ninety-five Theses to the door of All Saints' Church in Wittenberg on 31 October 1517, and history may well have been very different.
"If only" is a lament over much of history. I agree, if the Church's leaders had done a better job maybe Martin Luther would not have done what he did. If only! But it wasn't so and we have inherited a schism that 500 years hasn't even scratched.
 
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BobRyan

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Can one buy mercy, is it possible to purchase forgiveness, is it possible to bribe your way back into favour with God?

I think not.

The Catholic church thinks not.
Tetzel:
became known for a couplet attributed to him:
"As soon as the gold in the casket rings
The rescued soul to heaven springs"​
Martin Luther complained quite a lot about that and thought he was doing the Catholic church a favor by pointing out what Tetzel was doing.

"Tetzel was known for granting indulgences on behalf of the Catholic Church in exchange for money, which grant a remission of temporal punishment due to sin, the guilt of which has been forgiven, a position heavily challenged by Martin Luther. This contributed to the Reformation. The main usage of the indulgences sold by Johann Tetzel was to help fund and build the new St. Peter's Basilica in Rome."
 
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BobRyan

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from that same article:


"Yet if Tetzel overstated the matter in regard to indulgences for the dead, his teaching on indulgences for the living was pure Catholic teaching. The German Catholic historian Ludwig von Pastor explains:"

"Above all, a most clear distinction must be made between indulgences for the living and those for the dead.
As regards indulgences for the living, Tetzel always taught pure (Catholic) doctrine. The assertion that he put forward indulgences as being not only a remission of the temporal punishment of sin but as a remission of its guilt, is as unfounded as is that other accusation against him, that he sold the forgiveness of sin for money, without even any mention of contrition and confession, or that, for payment, he absolved from sins which might be committed in the future.

"His teaching was, in fact, very definite, and quite in harmony with the theology of the (Catholic) Church, as it was then and as it is now, i.e., that indulgences "apply only to the temporal punishment due to sins which have been already repented of and confessed"...

"The case was very different from indulgences for the dead. As regards these there is no doubt that Tetzel did, according to what he considered his authoritative instructions, proclaim as Christian doctrine that nothing but an offering of money was required to gain the indulgence for the dead, without there being any question of contrition or confession. He also taught, in accordance with the opinion then held, that an indulgence could be applied to any given soul with unfailing effect. Starting from this assumption, there is no doubt that his doctrine was virtually that of the well known drastic proverb.
It looks like the only issue for indulgences earned for the dead had to do with "the question of contrition or confession" and the idea that the indulgence earned was a sure thing rather than somewhat sketchy in trying to determine if it was going to actually work or not.
The Papal Bull of indulgence gave no sanction whatever to this proposition. It was a vague scholastic opinion, rejected by the Sorbonne in 1482, and again in 1518, and certainly not a doctrine of the Church,

Which brings us to this --

 
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LATERAN COUNCIL V 1512-1517: Indulgences


"the Roman Church, which the other churches are bound to follow as their mother, has decreed that the Roman Pontiff, the successor of PETER the key bearer, and the Vicar of Jesus Christ on earth, by the power of the keys, to which it belongs to open the kingdom of heaven, by removing the obstacles in the faithful of Christ (namely the fault and punishment due to actual sins, the fault by means of the sacrament of penance, but the temporal punishment due for actual sins according to divine justice by means of the indulgence of the Church), for the same reasonable causes can concede indulgences from the superabundant merits of Christ and the saints to these same faithful of Christ"​

So then the "merits of Christ AND the saints" are applied on behalf of the soul in purgatory to get them out of the "temporal punishment" due for sins. And this happens when one earns an indulgence for said dearly departed loved one. For a specific indulgence earned the church takes the action of granting an indulgence for that case.

", who belong to Christ by the charity that joins the members, whether they be in this life or in purgatory; and by granting an indulgence by apostolic authority to the living as well as to the dead, has been accustomed to dispense from the treasury of the merits of Jesus Christ and the saints, and by means of absolution to confer that same indugence or to transfer it by means of suffrage.​
The "treasury of merits" is the concept of a bank of merits that has been filled not only by Christ but also by the saints who suffered more torment in this life - than they actually owed - since they were in fact holy people not wicked.
" And for that reason that all, the living as well as the dead, who have truly gained such indulgences, are freed from such temporal punishment due for their actual sins according to divine justice, as is equivalent to the indulgence granted and acquired. And thus by apostolic authority in accordance with the tenor of these letters we decree that it should be held by all and be preached under punishment of excommunication, of a sentence [automatically] imposed [latae sententiae]. . . ."​
 
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Maria Billingsley

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What is indulgence, really?

It is to show mercy, to extend forgiveness to one who has done wrong and to accept them back into the community of God's people.

It is described by saint Paul in is second letter to the church in Corinth

2 Corinthians 2:5-11
5 Well, if someone has caused distress, it is not myself that he has distressed but, in some measure, all of you, so that I must not be too hard on him.
6 This punishment inflicted on him by so many of you is punishment enough for the man I speak of,
7 and now you must think rather of shewing him indulgence, and comforting him; you must not let him be overwhelmed by excess of grief.
8 Let me entreat you, then, to give him assurance of your good will.
9 The reason why I wrote to you, after all, was to test your loyalty, by seeing whether you would obey me in full.
10 If you shew indulgence to anybody, so do I too; I myself, wherever I have shewn indulgence, have done so in the person of Christ for your sakes,
11 for fear that Satan should get the advantage over us; we know well enough how resourceful he is.

Can one buy mercy, is it possible to purchase forgiveness, is it possible to bribe your way back into favour with God?

I think not.

The Catholic church thinks not.
Redefining this practice from the middle ages does not change its history. I am delighted the RCC stopped it's pay to play scheme long ago. Blessings.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Redefining this practice from the middle ages does not change its history. I am delighted the RCC stopped it's pay to play scheme long ago. Blessings.
Indulgences date to the early days of the Church and their use entails praying for the release of the faithful departed from Purgatory. Praying for the dead has its basis in Judaism (2 Macc. 12:42-46), of which Catholicism is the fulfillment (Matt. 16:18-19; Gal 6:15-16).

Misuses of indulgences took place over time, particularly in advance of the Protestant Reformation, and yet the Church’s actual teaching has never changed. See CCC 1471-79.

X. Indulgences

1471 The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance.

What is an indulgence?

"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints."81
"An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin."82 Indulgences may be applied to the living or the dead.​

The punishments of sin

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.83

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the "old man" and to put on the "new man."84

In the Communion of Saints

1474 The Christian who seeks to purify himself of his sin and to become holy with the help of God's grace is not alone. "The life of each of God's children is joined in Christ and through Christ in a wonderful way to the life of all the other Christian brethren in the supernatural unity of the Mystical Body of Christ, as in a single mystical person."85

1475 In the communion of saints, "a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things."86 In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.

1476 We also call these spiritual goods of the communion of saints the Church's treasury, which is "not the sum total of the material goods which have accumulated during the course of the centuries. On the contrary the 'treasury of the Church' is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ's merits have before God. They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. In Christ, the Redeemer himself, the satisfactions and merits of his Redemption exist and find their effficacy."87

1477 "This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission the Father entrusted to them. In this way they attained their own salvation and at the same time cooperated in saving their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body."88

Obtaining indulgence from God through the Church

1478 An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favour of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishments due for their sins. Thus the Church does not want simply to come to the aid of these Christians, but also to spur them to works of devotion, penance, and charity.89

1479 Since the faithful departed now being purified are also members of the same communion of saints, one way we can help them is to obtain indulgences for them, so that the temporal punishments due for their sins may be remitted.

81 Paul VI, apostolic constitution, Indulgentiarum doctrina, Norm 1.
82 Indulgentiarum doctrina, Norm 2; Cf. Norm 3.
83 Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1712-1713; (1563): 1820.
84 Eph 4:22, 24.
85 Indulgentiarum doctrina, 5.
86 Indulgentiarum doctrina, 5.
87 Indulgentiarum doctrina, 5.
88 Indulgentiarum doctrina, 5.
89 Cf. Indulgentiarum doctrina, 5.
 
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Philip_B

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Misuses of indulgences took place over time, particularly in advance of the Protestant Reformation, and yet the Church’s actual teaching has never changed. See CCC 1471-79.
So is the Catholic Church still selling indulgences?

Given that the new basilica in Rome is now built and paid for, if they are still selling indulgences is there a particular intent for the funds raised?

If the Church were to consider selling indulgences, why would that not be classed as simony as you have clearly linked it to the sacrament of penance?
 
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Valletta

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So is the Catholic Church still selling indulgences?

Given that the new basilica in Rome is now built and paid for, if they are still selling indulgences is there a particular intent for the funds raised?

If the Church were to consider selling indulgences, why would that not be classed as simony as you have clearly linked it to the sacrament of penance?
As Xeno quoted, the beautiful practice of indulgences dates back to early Christianity. It was in the charitable monetary gifts where unfortunately abuses took place. As Jesus taught us, charity is an essential virtue. In the individual cases where indulgences were "sold" it was an abuse of the idea of charity. But because of the anti-Catholicism that persisted even after the Church authorities cracked down, the stories became so embellished that the Church sadly had to drop indulgences for all monetary charitable giving. The best hoaxes are those with a grain of truth.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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So is the Catholic Church still selling indulgences?

Given that the new basilica in Rome is now built and paid for, if they are still selling indulgences is there a particular intent for the funds raised?

If the Church were to consider selling indulgences, why would that not be classed as simony as you have clearly linked it to the sacrament of penance?
One can't help but see that post as insulting towards the Catholic Church. It is premised on error. It concludes with error.
 
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Valletta

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One can't help but see that post as insulting towards the Catholic Church. It is premised on error. It concludes with error.
Yes, even beyond error, everyone admits the selling of indulgences is wrong yet Joseph asks "So is the Catholic Church still selling indulgences?"
 
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Philip_B

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One can't help but see that post as insulting towards the Catholic Church. It is premised on error. It concludes with error.
It certainly was not intended as such. The robust position you took seemed to ignore that there were some issues historically and that these were indeed one of the issues that were much discussed in the continental reformation.

There is a question about indulgences that revolves around the matter of atonement, a central tenet of Christian belief and practice. Do I need indulgences to make up for something not covered by Christ's once and the atoning act of atonement at Calvary?

I have a huge respect for the Catholic Church, though there are a few points of doctrine where I am at variance. I certainly recognise that there is more that binds us together than tears us apart. To have a point of disagreement is not to insult. Indeed I simply sought clarification following the posting of a fair chunk of CCC - (I have read quite a bit of CCC though by no means all).
 
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Valletta

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It certainly was not intended as such. The robust position you took seemed to ignore that there were some issues historically and that these were indeed one of the issues that were much discussed in the continental reformation.

There is a question about indulgences that revolves around the matter of atonement, a central tenet of Christian belief and practice. Do I need indulgences to make up for something not covered by Christ's once and the atoning act of atonement at Calvary?

I have a huge respect for the Catholic Church, though there are a few points of doctrine where I am at variance. I certainly recognise that there is more that binds us together than tears us apart. To have a point of disagreement is not to insult. Indeed I simply sought clarification following the posting of a fair chunk of CCC - (I have read quite a bit of CCC though by no means all).
Obviously the selling of indulgences was wrong, those individuals were absolutely wrong, I don't know anyone who thinks it was OK, and so asking whether the Church is selling indulgences or intends to was the objectionable part. Of course we can discuss the doctrine behind the over 99.999% plus indulgences which were not sold and will not be sold in the future.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Indulgences date to the early days of the Church and their use entails praying for the release of the faithful departed from Purgatory. Praying for the dead has its basis in Judaism (2 Macc. 12:42-46), of which Catholicism is the fulfillment (Matt. 16:18-19; Gal 6:15-16).

Misuses of indulgences took place over time, particularly in advance of the Protestant Reformation, and yet the Church’s actual teaching has never changed. See CCC 1471-79.

X. Indulgences

1471 The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance.

What is an indulgence?

"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints."81
"An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin."82 Indulgences may be applied to the living or the dead.​

The punishments of sin

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.83

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the "old man" and to put on the "new man."84

In the Communion of Saints

1474 The Christian who seeks to purify himself of his sin and to become holy with the help of God's grace is not alone. "The life of each of God's children is joined in Christ and through Christ in a wonderful way to the life of all the other Christian brethren in the supernatural unity of the Mystical Body of Christ, as in a single mystical person."85

1475 In the communion of saints, "a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things."86 In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.

1476 We also call these spiritual goods of the communion of saints the Church's treasury, which is "not the sum total of the material goods which have accumulated during the course of the centuries. On the contrary the 'treasury of the Church' is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ's merits have before God. They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. In Christ, the Redeemer himself, the satisfactions and merits of his Redemption exist and find their effficacy."87

1477 "This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission the Father entrusted to them. In this way they attained their own salvation and at the same time cooperated in saving their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body."88

Obtaining indulgence from God through the Church

1478 An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favour of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishments due for their sins. Thus the Church does not want simply to come to the aid of these Christians, but also to spur them to works of devotion, penance, and charity.89

1479 Since the faithful departed now being purified are also members of the same communion of saints, one way we can help them is to obtain indulgences for them, so that the temporal punishments due for their sins may be remitted.

81 Paul VI, apostolic constitution, Indulgentiarum doctrina, Norm 1.
82 Indulgentiarum doctrina, Norm 2; Cf. Norm 3.
83 Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1712-1713; (1563): 1820.
84 Eph 4:22, 24.
85 Indulgentiarum doctrina, 5.
86 Indulgentiarum doctrina, 5.
87 Indulgentiarum doctrina, 5.
88 Indulgentiarum doctrina, 5.
89 Cf. Indulgentiarum doctrina, 5.
And how is an indulgence practiced today ?
 
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Philip_B

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Please accept my apology for any unintended offence caused.

Could you, for the uninformed of us explain in what way an indulgence differs from absolution, which would normally be understood in the matter of the sacrament of reconciliation (confession)?
 
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Clare73

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What is indulgence, really?
It is to show mercy, to extend forgiveness to one who has done wrong and to accept them back into the community of God's people.
In Roman Catholicism, the English word "indulgence" means remission of the temporary (purgatory) punishment due for sins whose eternal punishment has been remitted and whose guilt has been pardoned by reception of the sacrament of penance.
It is described by saint Paul in is second letter to the church in Corinth

2 Corinthians 2:5-11
5 Well, if someone has caused distress, it is not myself that he has distressed but, in some measure, all of you, so that I must not be too hard on him.
6 This punishment inflicted on him by so many of you is punishment enough for the man I speak of,
7 and now you must think rather of shewing him indulgence, and comforting him; you must not let him be overwhelmed by excess of grief.
8 Let me entreat you, then, to give him assurance of your good will.
9 The reason why I wrote to you, after all, was to test your loyalty, by seeing whether you would obey me in full.
10 If you shew indulgence to anybody, so do I too; I myself, wherever I have shewn indulgence, have done so in the person of Christ for your sakes,
11 for fear that Satan should get the advantage over us; we know well enough how resourceful he is.
Can one buy mercy, is it possible to purchase forgiveness, is it possible to bribe your way back into favour with God?
I think not.
The Catholic church thinks not.
The Greek word in 2 Co 2:7, 10 is charizomai (to forgive), the same Greek word used in Eph 4:32, Col 2:13, 3:13, Lk 7:42, 43.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Yes, even beyond error, everyone admits the selling of indulgences is wrong yet Joseph asks "So is the Catholic Church still selling indulgences?"
Luther's complaints against Tetzel were examined by a church court and some were true and some were false, the folk tales of selling indulgences spread in some protestant literature are of very little historical value.
 
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Chaleb

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is it possible to purchase forgiveness,

Actually, the born again are "bought with a price".

This is the Blood Atonement, = The Cross of Christ.

Jesus purchased our forgiveness by shedding His blood and dying for all our sin.
This is : REDEMPTION.

Hebews 9:22


The born again are "blood bought", by Christ on the Cross.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Actually, the born again are "bought with a price".

This is the Blood Atonement, = The Cross of Christ.

Jesus purchased our forgiveness by shedding His blood and dying for all our sin.
This is : REDEMPTION.

Hebews 9:22


The born again are "blood bought", by Christ on the Cross.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20
There is so much variety in the answers that protestants give to questions such as "can one buy forgiveness", so many different approaches, so much difference. One cannot decide which is most and which is least representative.
 
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