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Indoctrination and Brainwashing?

BigRedBus

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The terms “indoctrination” and “brainwashing” may sound strong – but my experience suggests that is what sometimes happens within the church.

During my first few months of involvement with the SDA Church I began to hear various teachings that were new to me. They primarily concerned the Catholic Church and a global Sunday Law. I was (and still am) highly sceptical of these teachings, but there was an intermediate period in my journey which is of particular interest.

The psychology behind the “it’s us against the rest of the world” victim mentality was very clear to me from the outset. I thought it acted as a strong enabler for a tight knit group that was suspicious of outside or unapproved ideas. Furthermore, I simply couldn’t see any evidence that the Catholic Church or other denomination actually meant the SDA Church any harm (other than the “evidence” that emerged from the particular interpretation of biblical passages within the SDA Church). There was a fatalistic attitude, where no dialogue with the supposed enemy took place. I once asked whether any senior figures from the SDA church had ever checked the position officially with the organisations who the allegations had been made against. The response was scathing, and it told me all I needed to know.

I read and heard these teachings often, from many different sources. This was both in the course of official church activities, and also in casual conversations. My better judgement was telling me not to believe it, but subliminally I knew I was absorbing the doctrine and I could feel myself beginning to believe it, even though I actually didn’t.

It was at this point that I began to question both the message and the methods used to perpetuate it. From then on I began to disengage from the teaching process within the church.

Two things worried me about this whole experience.

First – the fact that a person can begin to believe something by hearing it a lot, even if they are sceptical on one level. The obvious parallel is the propaganda used by totalitarian regimes – it’s how in 1930s Germany many people who were otherwise decent normal individuals learned to despise those of a different race, religion, political persuasion etc.

Second – I first heard these views as an adult, I knew what was happening and the psychological reasoning behind it, and I was trying not to let it erode my critical faculty. Yet I was still getting sucked into the doctrine. If this was happening to an adult who was keeping a guard up, what hope would a person ever have of seeing the doctrine and methods for what they are if there is continual exposure to it from childhood?

You may be interested to read some of the other “first impressions” of my early contact with the SDA church. They are in post #47, last page of the thread called "Question about Seventh Day Adventist" started by loveandpeace25 back in August 2009.
 

k4c

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The terms “indoctrination” and “brainwashing” may sound strong – but my experience suggests that is what sometimes happens within the church.

During my first few months of involvement with the SDA Church I began to hear various teachings that were new to me. They primarily concerned the Catholic Church and a global Sunday Law. I was (and still am) highly sceptical of these teachings, but there was an intermediate period in my journey which is of particular interest.

The psychology behind the “it’s us against the rest of the world” victim mentality was very clear to me from the outset. I thought it acted as a strong enabler for a tight knit group that was suspicious of outside or unapproved ideas. Furthermore, I simply couldn’t see any evidence that the Catholic Church or other denomination actually meant the SDA Church any harm (other than the “evidence” that emerged from the particular interpretation of biblical passages within the SDA Church). There was a fatalistic attitude, where no dialogue with the supposed enemy took place. I once asked whether any senior figures from the SDA church had ever checked the position officially with the organisations who the allegations had been made against. The response was scathing, and it told me all I needed to know.

I read and heard these teachings often, from many different sources. This was both in the course of official church activities, and also in casual conversations. My better judgement was telling me not to believe it, but subliminally I knew I was absorbing the doctrine and I could feel myself beginning to believe it, even though I actually didn’t.

It was at this point that I began to question both the message and the methods used to perpetuate it. From then on I began to disengage from the teaching process within the church.

Two things worried me about this whole experience.

First – the fact that a person can begin to believe something by hearing it a lot, even if they are sceptical on one level. The obvious parallel is the propaganda used by totalitarian regimes – it’s how in 1930s Germany many people who were otherwise decent normal individuals learned to despise those of a different race, religion, political persuasion etc.

Second – I first heard these views as an adult, I knew what was happening and the psychological reasoning behind it, and I was trying not to let it erode my critical faculty. Yet I was still getting sucked into the doctrine. If this was happening to an adult who was keeping a guard up, what hope would a person ever have of seeing the doctrine and methods for what they are if there is continual exposure to it from childhood?

You may be interested to read some of the other “first impressions” of my early contact with the SDA church. They are in post #47, last page of the thread called "Question about Seventh Day Adventist" started by loveandpeace25 back in August 2009.

I need my brain washed by the water of the word of God.

Ephesians 5:26 That He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
 
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BigRedBus

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k4c and Joe67 -- it really doesn't seem as though either of your responses have actually addressed the real issue at hand -- what gets taught and the way that teaching gets delivered. Neither of you have acknowleged that I have described what I believe to be a negative aspect of church culture. In fact I think you may be implicitly defending the church culture -- was that really your intention? Do you think I have described indoctrination or brainwashing? If not, do say so. Joe67, your response in particular seemed more like a riddle than anything else -- do explain more about the allusions you made to serpents, poles, etc...

I am glad, however, that you have contributed. It all adds to the discussion, which is what I hoped would happen.

Out of interest, do you always respond this way when such an allegation is made?
 
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Avonia

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but subliminally I knew I was absorbing the doctrine and I could feel myself beginning to believe it, even though I actually didn’t.
One of the primal human fears is the lack of belonging. This fear is so strong, it drives many of the behaviors that "make sense."

Many religions resonate with people experiencing this fear because they provide an immediate community where people are accepted into the family. And they guarantee acceptance into a future family - God's family in Heaven. People are most easily converted when they are most vulnerable.

Having said that, the patterning you are referring to happens almost everywhere - to varying degrees. In all kinds of groups. We are much less independent in our thinking than we would like to believe.
 
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Joe67

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k4c and Joe67 -- it really doesn't seem as though either of your responses have actually addressed the real issue at hand -- what gets taught and the way that teaching gets delivered. Neither of you have acknowleged that I have described what I believe to be a negative aspect of church culture. In fact I think you may be implicitly defending the church culture -- was that really your intention? Do you think I have described indoctrination or brainwashing? If not, do say so. Joe67, your response in particular seemed more like a riddle than anything else -- do explain more about the allusions you made to serpents, poles, etc...

I am glad, however, that you have contributed. It all adds to the discussion, which is what I hoped would happen.

Out of interest, do you always respond this way when such an allegation is made?
BRB,

Are you acquainted with the Biblical history of these (serpents, poles, etc...)?

2 Cor 2:15-16
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? KJV

There is a time to die and there is a time to resurrect unto life.

Joe
 
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BigRedBus

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The biting of the serpent brings skepticism.

The only anti-dote for its sense of comfort is a brass serpent on a pole.

Joe

Thanks for the reply Joe, but I am still no closer to understanding what you actually mean by the statement above. I do know that in the Garden of Eden a snake (a serpent in old English) represented temptation and the devil -- but I can't see the connection with "serpents" and my original post which is why I asked you to explain further. Please, just use plain English and keep imagery and metaphors to a minimum.
 
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StormyOne

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BigRedBus, you have raised valid points. I think there is alot of indoctrination and it starts young. In fact I believe that because the teachings are introduced to kids who have not developed critical thinking, very rarely will those kids (who grow into adults) critically examine what they were taught...

Only those who are truly curious, and who decide that maybe all that is taught is not the truth will be able to examine the teachings and reject the propaganda... Thanks for starting this thread....
 
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AzA

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Ack... computer lost my post. :(

BRB, I was saying that I recognize much of what you've said, both from what I saw when I was growing up and what I've seen in other territories since then.

I also affirm what Avonia said about Othering being a common feature in many kinds of groups. American politics is rife with it; it's almost institutionalized.

Yet I think you're right when you see the function that this feature plays in Adventism. It is as much of the fabric of the tradition as is the emphasis on the whole person. I began reading Bull & Lockhart's Seeking a Sanctuary (2007) last year, and one of the things they do well in that book is to show how specific traits of Adventism responded to and also mimicked traits of 19th Century American Christianity and political society.

Now that I'm thinking this out, my sense is that the Adventist obsession about the purity of "the little flock" has helped it maintain its distinctiveness and so helped propel a lot of its social work in health care and education. That's not to say it hasn't also had plenty of costs -- it has, and we could easily enumerate those too.

How much do you find others in your peer group making similar observations to you? Have you met or connected with others in your peer group who have already pulled away from the org? How do they view this?
 
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Joe67

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Thanks for the reply Joe, but I am still no closer to understanding what you actually mean by the statement above. I do know that in the Garden of Eden a snake (a serpent in old English) represented temptation and the devil -- but I can't see the connection with "serpents" and my original post which is why I asked you to explain further. Please, just use plain English and keep imagery and metaphors to a minimum.
BRB,

Go forth and form a little group and labor to lead them in the way. Things will appear differently as you labor to lead those who are weak and erring. Some will even have to be bottle fed for a short time. Then when they become adolescents, a new need will open before your eyes as they become critical of you who they once admired so greatly.

Joe
 
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AzA

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BRB, I think that Joe's suggestion for you to start some kind of fellowship is a good one -- when you're ready to step out in that way.
I think you have plenty to offer.
He's also right when he says that this kind of effort teaches you things it's hard to know from the pew's perspective.
 
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StormyOne

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BRB,

Go forth and form a little group and labor to lead them in the way. Things will appear differently as you labor to lead those who are weak and erring. Some will even have to be bottle fed for a short time. Then when they become adolescents, a new need will open before your eyes as they become critical of you who they once admired so greatly.

Joe
becoming critical is a part of the package... in fact I want my kids to question what I've taught them, to dissect it and make sure it makes sense in the world they live in and the person they are becoming.... anything less is to ask them not to grow and think on their own...
 
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ricker

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The terms “indoctrination” and “brainwashing” may sound strong – but my experience suggests that is what sometimes happens within the church.

During my first few months of involvement with the SDA Church I began to hear various teachings that were new to me. They primarily concerned the Catholic Church and a global Sunday Law. I was (and still am) highly sceptical of these teachings, but there was an intermediate period in my journey which is of particular interest.

The psychology behind the “it’s us against the rest of the world” victim mentality was very clear to me from the outset. I thought it acted as a strong enabler for a tight knit group that was suspicious of outside or unapproved ideas. Furthermore, I simply couldn’t see any evidence that the Catholic Church or other denomination actually meant the SDA Church any harm (other than the “evidence” that emerged from the particular interpretation of biblical passages within the SDA Church). There was a fatalistic attitude, where no dialogue with the supposed enemy took place. I once asked whether any senior figures from the SDA church had ever checked the position officially with the organisations who the allegations had been made against. The response was scathing, and it told me all I needed to know.

I read and heard these teachings often, from many different sources. This was both in the course of official church activities, and also in casual conversations. My better judgement was telling me not to believe it, but subliminally I knew I was absorbing the doctrine and I could feel myself beginning to believe it, even though I actually didn’t.

It was at this point that I began to question both the message and the methods used to perpetuate it. From then on I began to disengage from the teaching process within the church.

Two things worried me about this whole experience.

First – the fact that a person can begin to believe something by hearing it a lot, even if they are sceptical on one level. The obvious parallel is the propaganda used by totalitarian regimes – it’s how in 1930s Germany many people who were otherwise decent normal individuals learned to despise those of a different race, religion, political persuasion etc.

Second – I first heard these views as an adult, I knew what was happening and the psychological reasoning behind it, and I was trying not to let it erode my critical faculty. Yet I was still getting sucked into the doctrine. If this was happening to an adult who was keeping a guard up, what hope would a person ever have of seeing the doctrine and methods for what they are if there is continual exposure to it from childhood?

You may be interested to read some of the other “first impressions” of my early contact with the SDA church. They are in post #47, last page of the thread called "Question about Seventh Day Adventist" started by loveandpeace25 back in August 2009.

As a young Adventist adult it was my reading of White's G.C. and the fatalistic, self-absorbed, fantastic predictions of denominational persecution that turned me away from the SDA church, and even Christianity, for a time. I couldn't believe it, considering the world I knew. I guess I was un-brainwashed?

Just my personal story, I don't know if it has any relevence here.
 
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BigRedBus

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To answer


Those look like interesting books Aza… the one by Bull & Lockhart (Seeking a Sanctuary) should explain a lot about how the SDA Church has got to where it has, and it also might provide some insights into whether there are cultural aspects of the denomination that have not travelled well outside the USA.

You ask if I find that others in my peer group make similar observations to me about the possibility of indoctrination taking place….

All of my associates at church are Adventist born and raised. Whilst I am very open about disagreeing with others in the local church community on some of the more peripheral “lifestyle” issues (for example, personal appearance or caffeine), I don’t explore the much deeper more fundamental issues with them. Unless there’s something they aren’t saying either, my thinking is quite a distance away from theirs and it might shock too much. I feel fine revealing what I think about those more fundamental issues here, because it’s an environment people visit intentionally to find those sorts of discussions and for the most part the regulars seem very open minded.

Regarding my leading a fellowship group at some stage, that’s a good point Joe67. If that is the decoded version of your earlier post about serpents, thank you. The connection is tenuous and I would not have made the leap myself.

There are several reasons why now / here isn’t the time / place but I don’t rule out the idea of a fellowship group altogether some time later. I would feel most comfortable doing it within a freethinking unconstrained environment where it is accepted that truths are relative and plural. But it’s difficult for me to see how that type of stance could officially be sanctioned by the church, particularly considering what this thread is about. It would have to be a parallel activity I suspect. Aza, I’m pleased you think I’d have something to offer.

I sometimes think about a non denominational Saturday group, where former and dis-fellowshipped Adventists will be made as welcome as anyone else. I could only start that if I lived nowhere near an SDA church since I have no desire to set up in competition with them. Despite all my misgivings, I’m still loyal to the church.
 
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ricker

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Thank you ricker, your account is very relevant and appreciated. Have you returned to Adventism? If so, is it on different terms now? After all, the balance of power has now shifted into your favour.

Thanks. I have been an active Lutheran for many years, but most of my family is Adventist, although living far away. I occasionally visit my local SDA church, and (suprisingly? :)) have never really found any real disagreements with what has been put forth there.

Has the power really shifted? I have relatives that are light years ahead of the old dogma I was raised with, and some that seem entrenched in the White way. I really have no problem worshipping on the Sabbath.

I don't really know about Adventists being brainwashed, but, if I may be so bold, there is something about the denomination that seems to attract conspiracy theorists and such. Maybe this is less so now than 30+ years ago when I was an Adventist.
 
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Joe67

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I don't really know about Adventists being brainwashed, but, if I may be so bold, there is something about the denomination that seems to attract conspiracy theorists and such. Maybe this is less so now than 30+ years ago when I was an Adventist.
ricker,

Who was the active instrument by which the 12 tribes went voluntarily to Egypt? The son that we admire the most.

Who was the active instrument by which the tribe of Judah went involuntarily to Babylon? The son for whom we have the most contempt.

Yet, the descendants of Jacob/Israel could never fulfill God's purpose for them until a remnant of them (Judah/Jerusalem) were taken by violence to Babylon. They went to Babylon unwillingly.

Joshua could never victoriously lead them into rest. David was given to prophesy concerning the true rest of God. Psalm 95.

It is the same with church today. The fear of being in the Egyptian (religious) slavery again, leads us into that disposition that rejects the Jeremiah message and sees Jeremiah as a traitor. Being taken captive to modern day Babylonian processes by the force of the violence of finance leads many to deny they are in Babylon. It was and is very pleasant in Babylon, with its hanging gardens and streams of water and abundance of all physical necessities. There is no forced labor, just apathy with its professed humanitarianism; "why this great waste?" The working philosophy of Babylon is, "Let us eat, drink and be happy today, for we will die at a later time."

The religiously cynical zealots think they can enter into the purpose of God through combativeness ( the 10 commandments are an iron rod ). The skeptics think they have presently entered into the purpose of God through philosophy and vain deceit with their comfort and financial security for years to come. The zealous Peter was given repentance; Judas, the treasurer, hung himself.

Joe
 
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BigRedBus

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ricker, they are still about. The official SDA line here seems to be sensible, moderate and pragmatic. But yes, there are a very few people in the rank-and-file who quite frankly come across to me as being "religious nuts" with their conspiracy theorising etc... and I'm basically on the same side as them. Goodness only knows what non churchgoers make of them.

I don't think there's any specific advance intent to brainwash or indoctrinate, but the combined effect of formal and informal interactions within an insular and sometimes overly authoritarian setting can certainly achieve the same result by accident.
 
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ricker

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Your response is interesting. perhaps a little bit cryptic to me.


[Joe67;53873137]ricker,

Who was the active instrument by which the 12 tribes went voluntarily to Egypt? The son that we admire the most.

Who was the active instrument by which the tribe of Judah went involuntarily to Babylon? The son for whom we have the most contempt.

Yet, the descendants of Jacob/Israel could never fulfill God's purpose for them until a remnant of them (Judah/Jerusalem) were taken by violence to Babylon. They went to Babylon unwillingly.

Joshua could never victoriously lead them into rest. David was given to prophesy concerning the true rest of God. Psalm 95.
Interesting. I had never thought of who the instrument leading the 12 to Egypt, and who led Judah to Babylon. Hebrews 4 speaks of Joshua and rest. Interesting prophesy in Psalms 95.


It is the same with church today. The fear of being in the Egyptian (religious) slavery again, leads us into that disposition that rejects the Jeremiah message and sees Jeremiah as a traitor. Being taken captive to modern day Babylonian processes by the force of the violence of finance leads many to deny they are in Babylon. It was and is very pleasant in Babylon, with its hanging gardens and streams of water and abundance of all physical necessities. There is no forced labor, just apathy with its professed humanitarianism; "why this great waste?" The working philosophy of Babylon is, "Let us eat, drink and be happy today, for we will die at a later time."

I am a little dense and unlearned, I guess. What is the Jeremiah message you are speaking of? Coming back to God in general? What do you believe Babylon today is? Secularism?



The religiously cynical zealots think they can enter into the purpose of God through combativeness ( the 10 commandments are an iron rod ). The skeptics think they have presently entered into the purpose of God through philosophy and vain deceit with their comfort and financial security for years to come. The zealous Peter was given repentance; Judas, the treasurer, hung himself.

Again a nice insight new to me. Thank you. I really dislike the "prosperity gospel", if that is what you are alluding to.

Please tell me if I've missed your point on things.
 
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