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Independently repeatable evidence that God interacts with our world

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Neogaia777

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OK, because it was the universe or the fabric of spacetime itself that was made to go or grow, correct?

You should still be able to see something of how it dispersed even in that case, etc...

It definitely should not be looking like what it is, etc, expanding away from us as the centre and faster the further out? Sorry, don't buy it, something else has to be going on, etc...?

Anyway,

God Bless!
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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OK, because it was the universe or the fabric of spacetime itself that was made to go or grow, correct?
Not exactly, space wasn't 'made to grow', it's nature is to grow - Einstein's equations describe an expanding or a contracting universe, and they're the best model of our cosmology currently available.

You should still be able to see something of how it dispersed even in that case, etc...
We can see how it dispersed - that's how discovered it was expanding.

It definitely should not be looking like what it is, etc, expanding away from us as the centre and faster the further out? Sorry, don't buy it, something else has to be going on, etc...?
That's incorrect, as previously explained. I can't force you to comprehend - as Samuel Johnson said, "Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding."
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Can you prove God exists to someone who doesn’t want him to exist?

No.
I want to know if any gods exist. But this does not matter since no one can choose their beliefs. If the evidence convinces them they will believe if not they won't. If I did not want my father to be my father I could not convinces myself that he was not my father because I am convinced by the evidence that he is.

The problem with any fine tuning argument is that it is just another argument from incredulity. Why are these parameters the way that they are? Invoking a god is just filling the gap of knowledge.

Another issue is this. Lets say I have 100, 6 sided dice and roll them. The probability of any one combination coming up is 1 in 6.5 x 10^77 (someone can check my math). But the probability of one of those combinations coming up is 1 in 1. So if you roll the dice it is a 100% probability that and extremely low probability will happen. Same with the universe. If a universe comes into existence the probabilities of a universe with certain characteristics is very low but one of those would have to happen, it just happens to be our universe.

Another problem is if you are going to claim the universe has a low probability of existence, how can you possibly calculate that probability? How many other universes are possible? So no one can show it is actually a low probability. Extremely low probability events happen all the time.
 
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Kyrani

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Oh, so now you want to talk about physiological reactions? It sure seemed like you were talking about psychological origins to cancer in the post I replied to. That's what my post was about.
Scientists talk about reactions to ideas as psychological, especially say psychiatrists and psychologists. But the reality is that there is not just some emotional response that is supposedly in the brain. Every emotional response is in the body. It is physiological. Emotions are complex body processes.

The idea of damage in the body, e.g., dangerous pathogen or some toxic doing damage, will ignite an inflammatory response. Sure there may be also fear, but that too is physiological. A psychologists says the word "fear" and a physician says the words "fight or flight response" BUT they are the exact same thing.

In cancer the ideas presented are about possible harm, not actual harm. What I found is that under these conditions the body moves to try and set up some barrier for protection. It is a bad response because if the person can be hassled more and more, which is what usually happens, then they will build bigger and bigger barrier. And if new issues can be created then other areas in the body can be targeted.

The ideas can only have an effect, i.e., trick the body, where there is underlying emotional reactivity going on. The reason is that the body will look for a possible danger and if there is no other reactivity it will tick off the reactivity due to the ideas as mirror neuron response. This is common. If however there is other reactivity going on and there is sensory information going back to the brain, then the matter is treated seriously.

I can show you the relevant science if you want. I also have made a video on this matter if you are interested.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Have you studied human physiology? I ask because although there is a grain of truth in what you say, i.e. the emotions do have physiological effects, what you describe is distorted and inaccurate.

I can show you the relevant science if you want. I also have made a video on this matter if you are interested.
Yes, please show me the relevant science.

I'll watch the video if you have some appropriate qualification for what you talk about in it - do you?
 
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Hans Blaster

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Toxic chemical/radiation/virus causes damage; damage causes cancer. There is no place in the sequence where "fear" causes cancer.

I would hazard that in almost zero cases does anyone even know they have cancer when it starts. It is not fear or emotion that causes lung cancer, it is the damage from smoking (for example). It is not fear or other emotion that causes cervical cancer, it is HPV.

I can show you the relevant science if you want.

This will either be interesting or irrelevant. I'm kind of curious to find out which.

I also have made a video on this matter if you are interested.

No thanks.
 
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Mountainmike

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I think you'll find that the answer is no, there is no independently repeatable evidence that God interacts with our world, or exists at all.

The weasel words are repeatable. That requires phenomena can be repeated by man, on that basis no , but that’s not a sensible test for another being that decides what and where it will act.

There are phenomena that have repeated but are not possible to repeat by man. BUT The EVIDENCE exists and tests were repeated in multiple forensic labs.

Eucharistic miracles for one.
Distressed Cardiac tissue from bread, so intermittently mingled it cannot be faked.
Forensic validation many laboratories whose day job is criminology.
Numerous instances. Buenos Aires, sokolka, tixtla , legnica etc.
Impossible to fake.
Impossible to explain.
Lanciano still recognisable as cardiac flesh and blood after 800 years. Intimately intermingled at edges. The sections are there to see on the web.

There are other forms of evidence.
Again cannot be repeated by man, but that is an arbitrary test.

Abiogenesis cannot even be shown to have happened, let alone repeated, let alone be repeatable. Do you discount it as conjecture?
At least the Eucharistic miracles have evidence!

here is a precis of tixtla.

http://www.miracolieucaristici.org/en/download/tixtla.pdf
But in castarnons book of 300 pages there are dozens of forensic lab reports from several forensic labs.
Some like Buenos Aires were tested in labs on several continents.

The fascinating thing. They pass all tests for human blood type AB , human cardiac flesh , white cells showing trauma and life, intimate intermingling with bread at edge and progressive conversion.

Plenty of nuclear material but no dna profile yields ( as they would with a fake - dna of the forger or victim)
But they do have identifiable mitichondrial dna.

Think someone with with mother, no father.
I can only think of one.
 
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Mountainmike

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These eyewitness accounts: do we have the original signed and dated statements from the eyewitnesses?



Which archeological finds indicate God's interference in our world? Which ones are yet to be found?


Don’t have to go back that far for eyewitness phenomena.
The Fatima prodigy witnessed by 80000 over an area of hundreds of sq km. There are hundreds of ( signed, dated) eye witness reports from credible professional witnesses and secular press atheists expecting to dismiss it , confirmed it instead!

“Como o sol baillou no meio-dia em Fatima. “ “ how the sun danced at Fatima”
was the report by the secular newspaper o seculo for an administration intent on wiping out religion in a generation ended up popularising it by confirming it happened.

It was prophesied to an hour and day 6 months in advance. Prophesy does not fit the scientific model, nor do many aspects of the prodigy.

The phenomena at zeitoun had millions of witnesses. Of all religion and none.
I have books of the statements for Fatima and zeitoun. Fascinating they are too.

Aarcheological? Yes, even that of sorts.
Here an example.

A bed ridden peasant nun described Mary’s house near Ephesus, where she lived after the crucifixion.
From the views she described it a search party expedition traced as a ruin on a very remote overgrown mountainside. It’s the only place you get the view of islands , coast and Ephesus she describes, but here’s the kicker:

She described it as it was 2000 years ago. So nobody could have told her what was there.

It was only after archaeologists excavated they found the unusual shaped octagonal lower walls emmerich described. So emmerich was conscious of another time and place.
 
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Hans Blaster

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A match based on a description full of vague descriptions of the structure and location? Based on the notion that Mary lived in Ephesus which is not recorded until centuries after her death? That's convincing to you? Really?

There's a reason a lot of Catholics don't put much faith in these relics and apparitions. (I used to be one of them.)
 
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sjastro

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What velocity do you think spacetime is expanding at now...?[
It's the same answer that was provided in this thread and in other threads over the years.
It depends on the distance between you and the object's recession velocity being measured.



Try? not? putting? a? question? mark? after? nearly? all? your? sentences?
Not only is it highly distracting it makes it difficult to determine if the question is meant to be serious or rhetorical.
I've already answered your questions in my previous post.
There is no unique centre where the BB occurred because it happened when the universe was at quantum mechanical scales in which case the BB occurred everywhere, I repeat everywhere.
We see the effects of expansion through an isotropic universe and the same background temperatures in all directions.
The straight line relationship between distance and recession velocity which defines Hubble's law is a signature for metric expansion as is the recession velocities exceeding the speed of light.

On another note you and I woudn't be having this discussion if expansion didn't occur as particle physics predicts the existence of magnetic monopoles which in sufficient numbers would lead to a universe without life.
 
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chad kincham

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The problem with any fine tuning argument is that it is just another argument from incredulity. Why are these parameters the way that they are? Invoking a god is just filling the gap of knowledge.

And conversely, atheist scientists invoke naturalism into the gaps, per this quote:

The more scientists testily insisted that the big bang was unfathomable, the more they sounded like medieval priests saying, "Don't ask me what made God." Researchers, prominently Alan Guth of MIT, began to assert that the big bang could be believed only if its mechanics could be explained. Indeed, Guth went on to propose such an explanation. Suffice it to say that, while Guth asserts science will eventually figure out the cause, he still invokes unknown physical laws in the prior condition. And no matter how you slice it, calling on unknown physical laws sounds awfully like appealing to the supernatural." (Wired Magazine, December 2002, The New Convergence, By Gregg Easterbrook, http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/10.12/convergence_pr.htm)l
 
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chad kincham

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You do realize that fear is not caused by the adrenaline response, but the emotion of fear triggers the adrenaline response, right?
 
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Hans Blaster

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Guth is a theoretical physicist. One of the things they deal with are anomalies detected in experiments. Anomalies that *aren't* explained by the currently known physical laws. The solutions the work with are "new physics" that could explain those anomalies. Looking for or expecting "new physics" to solve these problems is perfectly normal for a theoretical physicist. It has nothing to do with a "naturalism of the gaps." Unless of course you think that some property of Jesus explains the things in these experiments that aren't explained by the Standard Model like the difference between the SM computation of the muon magnetic moment and the observed value?

See for example:

Physics - The Era of Anomalies
 
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NxNW

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Suffice it to say that, while Guth asserts science will eventually figure out the cause, he still invokes unknown physical laws in the prior condition.

Cause and effect imply time, which did not exist, so it sounds like a nonsensical question.
 
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Kyrani

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You do realize that fear is not caused by the adrenaline response, but the emotion of fear triggers the adrenaline response, right?

No.
Fear IS the fight or flight response or what you are calling the adrenaline response.
We perceive of danger, real or imagined doesn't really matter. That perception causes us to take action, either to fight or take flight and the third part of it is also the freeze aspect. Whether we call it the fight or flight or freeze response or whether we call it the emotion of fear makes no difference. It is a physiological response. And it is a response to our perception of danger.

The biomedical establishment don't like the idea that there is a conscious being that may react and thus bring about changes in their embodiment, i.e., the body. They want to explain everything in physical terms. So they look to say that some "trigger" or "stimulus" caused the response. But without thinking this is nonsense. We learn to identify what is dangerous and that then aids in our perceptions of what may be a danger to us.
Here is Dr. Sapolsky, the professor of neuroscience at Stanford University, who believes 100% we are nothing more than biological machines. And yet, he is talking about a person setting forth the stress response due to perception of some danger.
Robert Sapolsky: The Psychology of Stress - YouTube
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Citation? link? reference?

They've said, "impossible to fake, impossible to explain" about many fakes, including psychic ectoplasm, bleeding or crying statues, spoon bending, telepathy, remote viewing, telekinesis, etc. Scientists can be the easiest people to fool - they take the world as they see it. What's needed is control & supervision by an experienced illusionist - in every case I know of where they've been involved, either the claimed effect has failed to appear or fakery has been exposed. Just sayin'.

Abiogenesis cannot even be shown to have happened, let alone repeated, let alone be repeatable. Do you discount it as conjecture?
No, it's a hypothesis, or rather, a range of hypotheses, currently under test - and making unexpectedly good progress.

It's interesting that of all scientific projects, research into abiogenesis seems to provoke these kinds of responses, as if its success would threaten the very foundations of Christian belief, when it clearly wouldn't. You don't hear this kind of thing with nuclear fusion

No DNA profile? that's fortunate - nothing that would give the game away... or are you suggesting your prophet didn't have DNA?

BTW, mitochondria are only passed on from the mother, so you wouldn't expect any paternal mitochondrial DNA

Now, if they'd found DNA sequences indicating a Middle-Eastern origin and appropriate ethnic identifiers that would indicate some antiquity, I'd be more interested - that would be quite difficult to fake. They could also have tested the blood for antibodies against contemporary (and possibly ancient) diseases, but did they?

So, from what you've said so far, all they've got is some human blood on a wafer. Meh.
 
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Mountainmike

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And that frumious is the problem.
You pass a verdict without looking at the evidence.

I gave you the essence of several.
- tissue sections ( so not just blood) identified by pathologists including heart specialists as myocardium suffered a trauma
( one said : I see this damage when someone hits a steering wheel at speed or very badly performed cpr)
- passed all tests for human blood and flesh.
- leukocytes indicate trauma AND recent life in vitro!! They should have Lysed.
- lots of material but no nuclear DNA but did yield mitichondrial. Hard to fake.
- the two things you missed. Progressive conversion ie developed over days and intimate intermingling at the edge.
That’s why it’s near impossible to fake.

Nobody has any hypothesis for how they could be faked. Even by substitution.

The Cochabamba statue is interesting because the bleeding was recorded on continuous rolling footage , the statue analysed under CT proved no hidden passages. One of the ( several) who analysed it was Robert Laurence pathologist son of the Nobel laureate inventor of the cyclotron. Who having analysed a sample clearly was sceptical of whether it was a set up so took another himself at the site. Same result!


On abiogenesis I’m easy. I’ve not discounted it. Nor accepted it.
It’s interesting conjecture.

But it makes an interesting comparison on living cells appearing.
It’s a benchmark comparison, most atheists assume.
And even a single cell is horrendously complex. It gives the impression of design.

In that case there is no forensic evidence it has happened, can happen or be made to happen or how it happened.

In the case of Eucharistic miracles the evidence is out there.
Take the book or paper on lanciano which is out there on the web
There is a book full of forensics for tixtla, and a lot on book and video for Buenos Aires.

All I hope to do is stimulate interest in looking them up.
Problem is documents on tixtla are Spanish
Main Documents on lanciano Italian
Buenos airies lab reports some Spanish / English
Sokolka polish
Naju Korean.
Information collection is hard.

fusion is fascinating.
What do you make of helion project?
 
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Mountainmike

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Someone asked for archeological evidence. I gave them an interesting phenomenon.

let’s see if you can describe ( without google earth) the view from a top of a hill , in three directions near a specific town I name, in a country you ( and nobody else you ever had contact with has ever been to, restricting itself only to buildings with an octagonal foundation, cruciform shape, location of windows, ledges etc.
Since there can only be a handful of buildings remotely like it in the world is already staggering odds.

The fact of the Ephesus council demonstrated the Ephesus tradition.

You would find it many order of magnitudes easier to win a lottery by chance. So it’s fascinating evidence.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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And that frumious is the problem.
You pass a verdict without looking at the evidence.
All I've heard is claims, no evidence.

fusion is fascinating.
What do you make of helion project?
Looks interesting - the direct-to-electricity energy recapture technique is novel, they claim 95% efficiency for their magnets and energy recovery, which is high, and they claim to be self-sufficient in helium-3 (³He).

Big claims require big results - if they're right, it looks very good, but... Let's see how close they get to their 2024 net gain goal.
 
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sjastro

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On another note you and I woudn't be having this discussion if expansion didn't occur as particle physics predicts the existence of magnetic monopoles which in sufficient numbers would lead to a universe without life.

While we can be thankful that expansion prevented magnetic monopoles from snuffing out the evolution of life in our universe, expansion aided in formation of nuclei from which stars and galaxies ultimately formed.
Free neutrons have a half life of around 15 minutes and undergo beta decay n → p + eˉ+ ṽₑ but are stable in nuclei.
The reason for this can be illustrated with the deuterium nuclei ²H which is a proton and neutron.
If the neutron in ²H decayed to a proton the resulting double proton nuclei undergoes strong electrostatic repulsion which pushes one of the protons into a higher energy level.
It makes beta decay not energetically favorable and the neutron is stable.

The issue now becomes how free neutrons which have a half life of 15 minutes have “enough time” to form ²H nuclei which are the building blocks for more complicated nuclei.

Expansion resolves the issue as the reaction rate for the beta decay process Γ must be greater than the Hubble expansion rate H.
Γ/H > 1
If the Hubble expansion rate is higher, the cosmological time t is greater in which case the bulk of neutrons have already decayed before the formation of ²H with protons.
The reaction rate Γ depends on temperature T which in turn depends on expansion of the universe which cools the universe down.
In the radiation era of the early Big Bang illustrated in the table below when neutrons first formed the temperature scales as T².
Depending on the interaction process the temperature scale determines the temperature range when the process can occur in the universe.
For example the electroweak interaction which ultimately leads to the creation of neutrons scales as T⁵.
Since Γ/H > 1
T⁵/T² = T³
Hence Γ > T³H is the condition for which the electroweak interaction can occur in the universe.

 
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