Indecisive

[bliz]

It's possible that this man is just not a child of God. There's no way that a person could walk with the One true God all these years and yet be a hypocrite and ignore the fact that he's seriously sinning against the people closest to him. In fact, that man had no business at all teaching youth ministry. When he abused his family at home, and yet still took it upon himself to serve in the church (and in Sunday school with children, of all places), he made himself the worst kind of hypocrite and liar. I believe that if you have problems at home, you have no business serving in the church in any capacity. Period.

Point of clarification - He taught adult Sunday school classes... not that that makes it an acceptable situation! Of course this man had no business being in any position of leadership! But he was not about to remove himself, and the pastor did not believe the wife when she went to him for help with her husband's behavior.

This was almost 25 years ago, and people did not talk about abuse in marriages near as much. But I know that many, by no means all and certainly not many people on this site, but many Christiana still believe that if there is an abusive husband (or wife) it is the fault of the spouse.

If only it were true that a Child of God would not sin against their families! But is is not true. It should be the case that we Christians do not sin, and yet we do. The sin nature remains alive and well within all of us. Anger management problems and the aubse that comes from them are ingrained and deeply rooted; these sins are very hard to leave behind. I think we deceive ourselves if we conclude "He wasn't really a Christian becasue a Christian could't do such a thing." That makes us feel safer - "I'm a Christian, my spouse is a Christian and so I won't, they won't do something like this." but it is a false security.

If I were you I might use the sandwich method and say something like...

Honey, I know you have been through alot, Anna and I look up to you and respect you for all you do for us. It bothers me that you seemed so angry at Anna the other day. Is there anything we could do to make things easier for you?

He will probably open up since you focus the blame away from him.
i

Husbands and wives should always be doing what they can to make life easier for each other. But this statement makes it sound as if somehow, this was Jenna and Anna's fault! Jenna and Anna did nothing wrong! "If we had made things easier for him, he wouldn't have blown up." Nonsense! The blame belongs on him! The man had dozens of other options beside hitting things, yelling at his wife and roughing up his 3 year old! If he's off the hook, if it was circumstances or his wife's actions or inactions that caused the problem, he doesn't need to seek help. And he needs help.

This is called enabling. This kind of approach tells the abuser that it's understandable that they did what they did, and it was someone else's fault. If his actions were justified, he doesn't have a problem.

 

[charligirl]

Husbands and wives should always be doing what they can to make life easier for each other. But this statement makes it sound as if somehow, this was Jenna and Anna's fault! Jenna and Anna did nothing wrong! "

This is called enabling. This kind of approach tells the abuser that it's understandable that they did what they did, and it was someone else's fault. If his actions were justified, he doesn't have a problem.

Gosh, of course Jenna and Anna did nothing wrong, i didn't read it as that at all.... just as a way to get him to open up a bit without blowing up. The Sandwich approach, sandwiching a rebuke between 2 positive things can be a great way to approach things. Re -reading it I can see how it could be taken another way though.

 

[Jenna]

Hi Desi It's good to hear from you again.

I understood what you were getting at, and I appreciate the advice. For as much as I don't like to sugar-coat some things, I realize that it is sometimes necessary in order to get my husband to feel comfortable enough to talk with me.

Oh, and just for clarification's sake, for the populace, my husband did not have an affair. He was at home that night. He simply chose to do a variety of other things instead of coming to bed with me. While I was mildly disappointed that I had no one to snuggle with, it surely didn't keep me up at night. lol The only reason why it was really relevant was that he stayed up too late at night, and then wanted to use it as an excuse to miss church. Since I woke him up in the morning, he thought that I looked like a pretty handy target for his grumpy nastiness. I think that it's just easier to blame it on me than it is to admit to a bad judgement call. lol

 

[bliz]

Gosh, of course Jenna and Anna did nothing wrong, i didn't read it as that at all.... just as a way to get him to open up a bit without blowing up. The Sandwich approach, sandwiching a rebuke between 2 positive things can be a great way to approach things. Re -reading it I can see how it could be taken another way though.

I see nothing wrong with a sandwich approach. But one piece of the bread cannot be "It was my fault." or "Let me fix things so that in the future it won't be my fault."

 

[charligirl]

I see nothing wrong with a sandwich approach. But one piece of the bread cannot be "It was my fault." or "Let me fix things so that in the future it won't be my fault."

I totally agree with you- I just didn't initially take Desi's example to mean that, I took it in the spirit of 'you've been through alot, which must be stressful, how can we help you?' Re-reading it though I can see that it could be taken as an enableing statement.

 

[pegatha]

Jenna, what would you do if the man hitting and shaking your daughter weren't your husband?

What if some strange man had come up to you and Anna on the street, and attacked her in the same fashion your husband did? Would you be agonizing over your decision then? Would you try to see it from his point of view, make excuses for him, dwell on all his positive qualities, talk to counselors trying to come up with a solution? Would you even have to think twice about this, if anyone else in the world were hitting your defenseless three-year-old?

I have been trying so hard to honor him in our home, to always offer my respect, speak well of him, and do everything possible to best serve him.

Jenna, this is a very, very difficult post for me to write. I'm sorry my approach is so blunt, and I'd find a way to soften it if I could, but this is just too important a situation for me not to be perfectly clear. The reason your husband doesn't change is that you're rewarding his bad behavior, if not actually encouraging it. From what I've read in your other posts, he has hit you, forced you to have sex, and repeatedly indulged in pornography, but you have never required him to face any real consequences for anything he has done. So why on earth should he change?

I do honor your commitment to your marriage and to the Biblical principle of submission, but Biblical submission has its limits. Otherwise, God would not have held Sapphira accountable for co-operating with Ananias. Likewise, if you allow your husband to get away with hitting your daughter, or if you keep her in a situation where she's vulnerable to him, then morally (and probably legally) you'll become a participant in whatever he does to her.

This is absolutely the hardest post I've ever had to write in my life, on this forum or any other. But if my daughter came to me with a situation like yours, I'd look her in the eye and say, "You have three choices. You call the police right now and press assault charges against your husband for what he did to Anna. Or, he checks into the nearest mental health center for emergency treatment, starting tonight. Or, I will pick up the phone right now and report both of you to Child Protective Services." Yeah, that's pretty extreme and pretty harsh, but I honestly am not trying to be offensive or to upset you. I just think that in hitting a tiny, vulnerable, defenseless child, your husband has crossed a line that can't be overlooked or dealt with by lesser means.

 

[A6A4]

WOW! My heart aches for you. I have been in that situation and it is a tough one. This is my suggestion to you, I would leave it alone for a couple more days and then one evening take your child to your mothers and sit down with him at home and have an adult conversation with him. I would never send your child to your mothers to live, just this one night to talk to him. I would tell him that what he did was not right and it scared you as well as your child. Ask him what really was the problem? Getting woke up like that for church I dont believe is the real case here. I think that there is something really wrong and he is afraid to tell you. So he diverts his anger onto something else like you two tickling him to get up for church. Once you get to the root of the problem, I would let him know that if he would EVER touch our daughter like that again, he would have to leave for a while and get some counselling!!!!!!!!!! Children are innocent and do not deserve to be treated in that manner. Let him know that you love him and you do not want a divorce or nothing like that. But he has to get some help for his anger management problem. Your child cannot see a reaction like that from her father towards her or her mother. But like I said I have a feeling there is something bigger going on with him then you are aware of......................

 

[alaskamolly]

You know, gals, growing up in a home like that was harmful to me, to be sure.

But growing up in a home where I watched my mother actively choose to honor the Lord through it all was INSTRUMENTAL in my belief in God. I could NEVER deny His existance, even though I really wanted to at times, because of the simple fact that I saw Him living in and through my mother.

Had she left him, things would have been much different, but I highly doubt for the better.

Had he been extremely abusive, I know she would have left, and that would have been a good thing, but because it was not extreme and no one's life was in danger, she stayed, and I think her home was blessed because of it.


Just a little side note, because sometimes the "leave him at first sign of any abusive anything!" is a little extreme. Not all cases require removal, and in some cases, removal can be far more damaging on the children than staying is. It's a matter of discernment and prayer.

Blessings,
Molly

 

[HeatherJay]

It all depends on your definition of 'extremely abusive', I guess. Extreme abuse can occur even when there are no physical scars to prove it. I think verbal abuse and intimidation are pretty extreme. And the fact that he's gotten physical (even if it's not something that leaves a mark) are signs that something needs to change now. A line needs to be drawn, otherwise it will get worse. There's absolutely no excuse to take out your rage on your wife and daughter. I mean, you guys tickled him, Jenna...in what universe is there an excuse for his reaction? I don't mean to be harsh and I'm sorry if anything I've posted is offensive to you, but I'm scared for you. This sort of behavior doesn't go away on it's own. And I don't believe that you should leave at the first sign of abuse...but I think you should let it be known that that behavior toward you, and especially toward Anna, is absolutely unacceptable.

 

[isaiah5213]

i am gonna get alot of "stuff" from you guys about this, and i am bracing myself, for it, here goes..

i read this days ago, i followed, but my feelings were so mixed, i wasn't sure of the wisdom of my response...i hate the "leave now" statements.. the world teaches us that rage-aholics can't and won't change. the world teaches us to leave at the first sign of ...stuff... & well meaning Christian friends tell the same advice. and we get out, we women. and we haven't done our best. i am not saying we are to blame for their rants and rages. don't get me wrong here!! i am not saying "be the victim".. here. i am saying sometimes we well meaners give others excuses to give up too easily.

if she has fasted, and prayed, and she has made sure that her heart is right, and pure and just in front of God, and God is making the situation so that beyond the shadow of a doubt, God is saying get out, then yes, she should leave. but leaving before all of that first? then calling him, saying "when you are better, we will come home?"... IF, and i say IF this man is hugely hugely abusive, this will trigger his alarm pell smell. abusive men are very very insecure. to him, she would be abandoning her marriage, taking his child, jeapordizing their relationship, and he would hunt her down... but i don't believe that he is that abusive, from her posts. i don't believe that he is that insecure, from her posts. and if her husband is anything like my husband, then i think he is just overtired, and overwrought, and just plain out and out exhausted..

when i am exhausted, don't tickle me. don't touch me. just let me move at my own pace. i will get to where i need to be eventually. but don't speed me up. (not to say jenna was to cause for his rage, just don't stoke the fire in the kitchen of the house...)

& my husband works overtime sometimes. and when he does, he is very cranky and very irratible, because he doesn't get enough sleep, and it seems that sometimes, other major things come up that require the monies he makes, to fix those instead of what he intended the money to go to! and he hates that he has to spend time away from his family! he feels guilty and ashamed when he doesn't get to mow the lawn, or help w/homework, or pray w/the kids and tuck them into the bed. and it is easy for him to lose his temper, and over-react about little things, like water on the kitchen floor, or
one of the 7 females' hair ties on the bathroom sink all mussied w/hair on it...

i know when he gets done yelling, he will come back and say he is sorry. he will feel bad. he will want to treat us out to eat, because he knows that i have to do his and my jobs around the house when he gets tired, and that i probably need a break too, so he's gonna announce we should go out to eat...

is this where i tell him i am gonna leave him?? i know i am sounding like i am taking this way out of proportion, when i ask the next question too: is this where i tell him that cps may come in and take our children, because of his outburst, in his exhaustion? folks, i have a bitter root--i know. i am still praying to God about that. it stems from my neighbors calling cps on me because i did what a counselor told me to do: the next time my youngest son kicks, hits, punches, spits, & screams in people's faces--all at the same time--then give him some physical exercise.. and so i made my son run around my house over and over until his little legs had had enough. cps told me i never should have disciplined my child in the first place.????? they told me that because he is "special" then it is impossible to teach him how not to treat other people. that he is "venting". that he has to have a way to express his anger. ??? i expressed to them, that his venting and expressing his anger was done: in the way of running around my house until he was exhausted. it doesn't matter how "special" my child is, it is important to teach them not to beat up other people...(i know i am gonna get junk for this... i know it...) i hadn't even spanked this child.. i am so glad my lawyer was there.

that's what the world believes, folks. my child has adhd. i have 2 other children w/adhd, and they are teens, now. they are doing fantastic. they are straight a students, they have great friends. i constantly get surprised responses from teachers & friends when they find out, & the teachers are constantly saying "they don't act like our other disordered students"..

we are well-meaning, we love Jenna, we want what is best for her, and sometimes we over-react...

it's obvious, their family is stressed right now. my family gets stressed, too. her husband is working working working. they have a sick grandparent. they are not living on their own. it's hard on a man to work and work and work, and not have their own home to show for it, nor their own stuff to use, or be able to get his privacy because of not only the grandparents--and one sick--but also kiddos and work work work ...

yes. he did wrong. yes. he won't admit to jenna that he did wrong. but it doesn't mean that he doesn't know he did wrong. my hubby sometimes get defensive w/his actions, not because he doesn't feel like he did wrong, but because he thinks i am pushing pushing pushing, and he is fighting himself out of the corner! he always comes back later and apologizes. my husband, too, hates it when our youngest daughter sucks her thumb. he is worried she will be made fun of in school, & he is worried about the germs she will pick up, and he is worried because he hears that children who suck their thumbs are hugely insecure--and he obsesses on what he can do to help her feel more secure... & couple this w/all the stuff going on at this time in their lives, and wham.. an avalanche on a sunday morning. before being in front of God, and godly people. before singing hymns praising God, when all he probably wants to ask or say is: "when will it end God, when can i rest??"

i don't mean this to be a direct attack on any poster here. i know we all love others. we want what is best for them. we want to see us all in heaven. we want to help others. michael hugely deserved the gift he received from the anonymous poster (THANK YOU POSTER), and the sis who said "hey, cps should be called--you can tell your heart. you genuinely care for the children, & for jenna. tho i may not matter to you, i can see that. i am just like you all... i read these original posts, and i was like, oh my gosh!! and i over-reacted too... i am not saying any one of you sinned here, but i did. i had to repent. i had to defend jenna and her actions. she is loving her family. doing what she feels God is telling her to do.. she is doing her best. we can't fault that.

if you want anyone to fault.. fault me!

i step down from the soapbox, now, i tuck it under my shoulder, i git out of here w/this long long long post! lol!

 

[poohmom]

A couple of nights ago on Focus on the Family Dr. Dobson spoke to a couple of women who have been through abusive relationships. I think they might have a book available. If nothing else you could call Focus on the Family (or check on line) and find out if they could point you in the right direction.

 

[Mrs. Enigma]

I think that you maybe should just apologize for waking him up. Next time just get ready for church, and go. He is a big adult man and can set an alarm or go to bed earlier if he wants to go to church. I am so glad you are trying so hard to submit and be a Christian wife!!
I can see your perspective and how you feel, but if he did not want to wake up and you made him wake up, then I can see how he would see that as controlling.
as for what he did to your daughter, has he done similiar things to you guys on a regular basis?
I'd tell him that it was really scarry for me when he did that cuz I was soo afraid she might get hurt. He is more apt to listen if he feels like he has to protect you, then if he feels like you are bossing him in ghow to treat his kid. Make sure you do not come across like you are telling him how to discipline your way, or to be scolding him. If he is a regular guy, then he already knows he overreacted and does not want it rubbed in. He may not feel the need to apologize, if he feels that you are refusing to apologize.
I do not know what kind of man he is, and am giving advice as if he was my hubby. I know my advice is really hard to follow, and I do not always follow it. I am gonna reccommend that book again in here. The Surrendered Wife by Laura Doyle.
She helps me see areas to surrender in that I did not think about as much, and it helps to have a more peaceful happy marriage.