income inequality

whatbogsends

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My response was more in line with increasing a given profit margin by merely lowering one aspect (in this case labor costs). Even at the expense of quality (something we all live with every day....many of the goods I purchase today that are analogous to a piece of equipment I purchased 25 years ago will never last or long or be as solidly built as the older version, but since the company has been able to make use of cheaper technology they have been able to make the appearance of increased "quality" --illusory in that they have only added more bells and whistles but the product is still worse in overall quality) but at a lower labor cost.

And I will readily grant this works on the short term in that if you find that consumers' "pain point" is above your quality of output you will lose sales and end up in the dumpster. But I see many, many, many examples all around me (in fact I'm using one right now) that is worse than the one I had 3 years ago, feels cheaper in quality, but still sells.

In fact, i believe that companies are making "inferior" products intentionally. Intentional obsolescence is part of the sales plan. If i sell a person a TV that lasts 25 years, they will only need to but 2-3 TVs in their lifetime. If the lifespan of a TV is now 10 years, they will now be purchasing 5-8 TVs in their lifetime.

Look at cell phones and Ipods and the like. When companies release their new "improved" products, all of the supporting equipment (chargers, etc) are most often *not* backwards compatible. It is a business plan designed to increase consumption.
 
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thaumaturgy

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In fact, i believe that companies are making "inferior" products intentionally. Intentional obsolescence is part of the sales plan. If i sell a person a TV that lasts 25 years, they will only need to but 2-3 TVs in their lifetime. If the lifespan of a TV is now 10 years, they will now be purchasing 5-8 TVs in their lifetime.

Look at cell phones and Ipods and the like. When companies release their new "improved" products, all of the supporting equipment (chargers, etc) are most often *not* backwards compatible. It is a business plan designed to increase consumption.

Apple's iPods and iPads with integral batteries that cannot be replaced is a brilliant idea. The iPod I use for my travels often has to keep me entertained for up to a 10 hour plane flight (I seldom watch the movies on the overseas flights), and it's about 2 years old now. I just noted on this trip that it is holding the charge for less and less time.

I love my iPOd and I'll buy another. In fact Apple is one of the few companies that still charge a "premium" for their products and make a good profit selling higher quality at the price that is reasonable for high quality (even though they do have some issues with their association with FoxConn, that's not pretty and won't do them much good in the long run).

But there's no way that my iPod under heavy use will last as long as the old "Rio mp3" player I have out in the garage and use for when I'm out doing yard work which uses (gasp) a AAA battery and has an SD Card slot. Only problem is I don't have the old software for managing the Rio files so I don't even try to load it up with new stuff.
 
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stamperben

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Surely there will be a day of reckoning for those who defraud the laborer of his hire.

Dayton, Ohio,

August 7, 1865

To My Old Master, Colonel P.H. Anderson, Big Spring, Tennessee Sir:

I got your letter, and was glad to find that you had not forgotten Jourdon, and that you wanted me to come back and live with you again, promising to do better for me than anybody else can. I have often felt uneasy about you. I thought the Yankees would have hung you long before this, for harboring Rebs they found at your house. I suppose they never heard about your going to Colonel Martin's to kill the Union soldier that was left by his company in their stable. Although you shot at me twice before I left you, I did not want to hear of your being hurt, and am glad you are still living. It would do me good to go back to the dear old home again, and see Miss Mary and Miss Martha and Allen, Esther, Green, and Lee. Give my love to them all, and tell them I hope we will meet in the better world, if not in this. I would have gone back to see you all when I was working in the Nashville Hospital, but one of the neighbors told me that Henry intended to shoot me if he ever got a chance.

I want to know particularly what the good chance is you propose to give me. I am doing tolerably well here. I get twenty-five dollars a month, with victuals and clothing; have a comfortable home for Mandy,—the folks call her Mrs. Anderson,—and the children—Milly, Jane, and Grundy—go to school and are learning well. The teacher says Grundy has a head for a preacher. They go to Sunday school, and Mandy and me attend church regularly. We are kindly treated. Sometimes we overhear others saying, "Them colored people were slaves" down in Tennessee. The children feel hurt when they hear such remarks; but I tell them it was no disgrace in Tennessee to belong to Colonel Anderson. Many darkeys would have been proud, as I used to be, to call you master. Now if you will write and say what wages you will give me, I will be better able to decide whether it would be to my advantage to move back again.

As to my freedom, which you say I can have, there is nothing to be gained on that score, as I got my free papers in 1864 from the Provost-Marshal-General of the Department of Nashville. Mandy says she would be afraid to go back without some proof that you were disposed to treat us justly and kindly; and we have concluded to test your sincerity by asking you to send us our wages for the time we served you. This will make us forget and forgive old scores, and rely on your justice and friendship in the future. I served you faithfully for thirty-two years, and Mandy twenty years. At twenty-five dollars a month for me, and two dollars a week for Mandy, our earnings would amount to eleven thousand six hundred and eighty dollars. Add to this the interest for the time our wages have been kept back, and deduct what you paid for our clothing, and three doctor's visits to me, and pulling a tooth for Mandy, and the balance will show what we are in justice entitled to. Please send the money by Adams's Express, in care of V. Winters, Esq., Dayton, Ohio. If you fail to pay us for faithful labors in the past, we can have little faith in your promises in the future. We trust the good Maker has opened your eyes to the wrongs which you and your fathers have done to me and my fathers, in making us toil for you for generations without recompense. Here I draw my wages every Saturday night; but in Tennessee there was never any pay-day for the negroes any more than for the horses and cows. Surely there will be a day of reckoning for those who defraud the laborer of his hire.

In answering this letter, please state if there would be any safety for my Milly and Jane, who are now grown up, and both good-looking girls. You know how it was with poor Matilda and Catherine. I would rather stay here and starve - and die, if it come to that - than have my girls brought to shame by the violence and wickedness of their young masters. You will also please state if there has been any schools opened for the colored children in your neighborhood. The great desire of my life now is to give my children an education, and have them form virtuous habits.

Say howdy to George Carter, and thank him for taking the pistol from you when you were shooting at me.

From your old servant,

Jourdon Anderson.

 
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Panzerkamfwagen

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In fact, i believe that companies are making "inferior" products intentionally. Intentional obsolescence is part of the sales plan. If i sell a person a TV that lasts 25 years, they will only need to but 2-3 TVs in their lifetime. If the lifespan of a TV is now 10 years, they will now be purchasing 5-8 TVs in their lifetime.

Look at cell phones and Ipods and the like. When companies release their new "improved" products, all of the supporting equipment (chargers, etc) are most often *not* backwards compatible. It is a business plan designed to increase consumption.

Shoot, refrigerators used to last 20-25 years.
 
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childofGod1

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Surely there will be a day of reckoning for those who defraud the laborer of his hire.


This letter made me want to cheer. What a perfect example of capitalism at work!!!! Jourdan Anderson, once his individual rights were properly protected by just laws, has grasped the power and freedon that capitalism gives the individual beautifully. He's using his freedom to choose the highest wage for his labor. He's making a living in a safe community, educating his children, and bettering his and their lives. Jourdan Anderson was an extraordinary capitalist. His story is exactly what generations of patriots have fought and died for throughout our history.
 
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Umaro

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This letter made me want to cheer. What a perfect example of capitalism at work!!!! Jourdan Anderson, once his individual rights were properly protected by just laws, has grasped the power and freedon that capitalism gives the individual beautifully. He's using his freedom to choose the highest wage for his labor. He's making a living in a safe community, educating his children, and bettering his and their lives. Jourdan Anderson was an extraordinary capitalist. His story is exactly what generations of patriots have fought and died for throughout our history.

Did you forget about all the other freed slaves who for the most part saw very little change in their life, since "why should I hire a darkey for more than a slave wage" was the primary response when they sought work? Things didn't get better for them for years and years until the government started introducing things like discrimination laws. I don't know what universe the free marketers come from, but they can't seem to grasp that the theory of equal opportunity and merit based pay is pretty much not the case.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Did you forget about all the other freed slaves who for the most part saw very little change in their life, since "why should I hire a darkey for more than a slave wage" was the primary response when they sought work? Things didn't get better for them for years and years until the government started introducing things like discrimination laws. I don't know what universe the free marketers come from, but they can't seem to grasp that the theory of equal opportunity and merit based pay is pretty much not the case.

It has taken monumental change in order to open the benefits of Capitalism to a wider circle of people. What many proponents of hard capitalism forget is that their ideal of capitalism (everyone trading on equal terms) is a novel idea that has only recently taken hold (partly because of legislative changes that they say "distort" the market).
 
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childofGod1

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True...but the whole picture of corporate responsibilities change when the workers become just as important as profits. When profits become more important than people, than greed can take over…and that IS evil. Corporate Greed is the very thing that crashed our economy.

.

It's important to remember that the reason people go into business is to make money. Workers are there for the sole purpose of creating profit. I see many of the biggest problems with employee/employer relations stemming from workers forgetting this very thing. They are there to make money for the owner, but instead, they expect charity. They expect the owner to consider their financial goals above his own. They expect the owner to put his own needs aside when they don't give a full day's work, when they cheat their employers out of his due. I constantly hear about the business owner's responsibility to the worker, but rarely hear anyone say anything about the worker's responsibility to the owner. This attitude among workers has set up an adversarial relationship between workers and their employers, an environment of mistrust and fear. Workers rarely have employers best interests at heart, but they demand that their employers place workers interests above their own. It's supposed to be a reciprocal relationship, and we would all do well to look to our own behavior, then try to see things from the other person's point of view before we judge their actions.
 
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thaumaturgy

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It's important to remember that the reason people go into business is to make money. Workers are there for the sole purpose of creating profit. I see many of the biggest problems with employee/employer relations stemming from workers forgetting this very thing.

Seems interesting the way you phrase that: the workers are the ones who carry the blame here. Good. Because heaven forbid that "greed" shouldn't be a virtue, but envy a sin.

They are there to make money for the owner, but instead, they expect charity.

WRONG. You and I both know that 99.9% of American workers are not looking for Charity. Unless you truly think that little of your fellow people, honestly, we all work and we all work hard. We are trained to expect little but when we fail to even get that while many at the top keep getting more and more and more then suddenly we workers are at fault for forgetting that the businessman went into business to make money.

Sorry, but I went to work for the same guy to make money as well.

They expect the owner to consider their financial goals above his own.

WRONG AGAIN.

The owner and we employees think mostly of our own financial goals. However in the case of the employees the owner's actions become central to us. Meanwhile our ability to do the job for which we are hired becomes central to the owner's goals.

There is no "superior" in this. If the owner could do the work without hiring he or she would. They didn't make a job out of charity and we don't work for them out of pity for them.


They expect the owner to put his own needs aside when they don't give a full day's work, when they cheat their employers out of his due.

See, when you say stuff like that it sounds like you consider most workers little more than some kind of scum.

That's what I'm talking about when I refer to your lack of compassion. You look at the people around you and see "cheats".

What kind of twisted anti-Christian view of humanity is that? I'm an atheist and I find that view nearly sociopathic.

Maybe you've never held a job for someone? Maybe you've never worked for someone else? (It isn't as easy as you guys who constantly defend the "job creators" make it seem.)

I constantly hear about the business owner's responsibility to the worker, but rarely hear anyone say anything about the worker's responsibility to the owner.

So you've never heard of people who are "fired" or people who are "laid off"? Never heard of the papers one has to sign when taking employment? Never heard about "time clocks" at the work place? Never heard of "annual reviews"?

I don't get a single say in my supervisor's annual review, but he is the one who has the most say in mine. Interesting how that works.

But you general ignorance of these things could explain your skewed view of your fellow people, though.

This attitude among workers has set up an adversarial relationship between workers and their employers, an environment of mistrust and fear.

Wonder why that is? I mean, my cube mate shouldn't be bitter because she had to train her Chinese replacement. I shouldn't be bitter because at the drop of a hat me or my coworkers could be "let go" because the business had a downturn. I know I shouldn't be bitter that I (and most of the people around me) had to work for several years without a cost of living adjustment while the cost of living increased. Why would anyone be bitter or "mistrustful"? Oh, sure, during 2010 there were a lot of big CEO's that got double digit raises while the rest of us were force to "tighten our belts" or take a pay cut due to the horrible business climate (LINKY). How could there possibly be reason for an adversarial relationship between workers and employers????

But in generaly you seem to know very little about the history of labor relations in the U.S. That's sad. Instead of exhorting others to read the Federalist Papers maybe you could pick up a history book some time. That might make it a bit more difficult to lay the blame solely at the feet of the workers and their "cheatin' ways".
 
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thaumaturgy

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This letter made me want to cheer. What a perfect example of capitalism at work!!!! Jourdan Anderson, once his individual rights were properly protected by just laws, has grasped the power and freedon that capitalism gives the individual beautifully. He's using his freedom to choose the highest wage for his labor. He's making a living in a safe community, educating his children, and bettering his and their lives. Jourdan Anderson was an extraordinary capitalist. His story is exactly what generations of patriots have fought and died for throughout our history.

Wow, reading this post makes me think that during Reconstruction and the ensuing 100 years African Americans, once freed from the plantations, were getting a good deal too! What a great thing! I'm sure that they got paid just as much as a white person doing the same job because that's the nature of a "perfect example of capitalism at work"!

Yes, no doubt Jourdan and his family lived as well as any of the white people around them.

It is inspiring!

Life After the 13th Amendment

...In many parts of the South, the newly freed slaves labored under conditions similar to those existing before the war. The Union army could offer only limited protection to the ex-slaves, and Lincoln's successor, Andrew Johnson of Tennessee, clearly had no interest in ensuring the freedom of southern blacks. The new president's appointments as governors of sourthern states formed conservative, proslavery governments. The new state legislatures passed laws designed to keep blacks in poverty and in positions of servitude. Under these so-called black codes, ex-slaves who had no steady employment could be arrested and ordered to pay stiff fines. Prisoners who could not pay the sum were hired out as virtual slaves. In some areas, black children could be forced to serve as apprentices in local industries. Blacks were also prevented from buying land and were denied fair wages for their work.
...
In the summer of 1866, Congress passed two bills over the president's veto. One, the Freedmen's Bureau Bill, extended the powers of a government agency that had been established in 1865 for the purpose of providing medical, educational, and financial assistance for the millions of impoverished southern blacks. Congress also passed the Civil Rights Bill, which gave full citzenship to blacks, along with all the rights enjoyed by other Americans. President Johnson's supporters, mainly Democrats and conservative Republicans, organized in the summer of 1866 to stop the movement for further black rights. (emphasis added)
...
(SOURCE)

Why even today we see the inspirational aspects of this equality!

Picture-48.png

(SOURCE)

Yes, capitalism at work! You go, Jourdan! You go!
 
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thaumaturgy

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I think Rawls' predicate that we are under a veil of ignorance as to what station in life we would be born into, what kind of world would we want?

What I see in American politics is that we use "success" as kind of like a "battery". A battery works by drawing the electrons from one potential to another. They are "pulled" there. So success in our eyes as American is a "pull" to succeed. We see the trappings of great success and we wish that for ourselves and our families.

This is why I honestly do think that envy (at its more "mild" extremes) really does underlie how we have constructured our economic system.

We've just had sufficient time to take it to an extreme where some have a massive amount of wealth (and a massive amount of power and advantage) and others are left with little.

The real problem is that somehow we keep "convincing" the little guy that he or she can be the "big guy".

Ideally that is "true" in the U.S. Realisitically it is not. So we need to decide how important is that "battery" to our long-term survival as a society?

There will always be inequalities: inequalities of birth, inequalities of ability etc.

Yes those who are more skilled and better at what they do should get more reward than those who aren't. But it is not a "binary" operation. There are people who are a little less skilled than others, should they be left out to dry with those who are even less skilled thus giving more advantage to the "most" skilled?

The fact that we as a society can watch as a large chunk of our fellow society members not only fail but fail to thrive while a smaller and smaller portion get huge amounts of cash and power indicates we somehow think we would all be able to survive without the social group around us.

No, if 50% of your population is drug down to extremes of poverty and they are lead to believe this is not necessarily their lot in life, your society will suffer.

At least in feudal Europe the serfs were raised up from the earliest times to "know" that this was their lot. Nothing better would ever come. Unfortunately America teaches its kids they can be better and often fails to give them the opportunities.

What do people (on both the Right and the Left) think is going to happen in that situation? Honestly.
 
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childofGod1

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Wow, reading this post makes me think that during Reconstruction and the ensuing 100 years African Americans, once freed from the plantations, were getting a good deal too! What a great thing! I'm sure that they got paid just as much as a white person doing the same job because that's the nature of a "perfect example of capitalism at work"!

Yes, no doubt Jourdan and his family lived as well as any of the white people around them.

It is inspiring!



Why even today we see the inspirational aspects of this equality!

Picture-48.png

(SOURCE)

Yes, capitalism at work! You go, Jourdan! You go!

The thing I found most inspiring was that instead of whining about his circumstances, Jourdan put his energies into improving his lot. I'm sure there were many other former slaves who lived out their days consumed with bitterness, envy and righteous anger, passing those sentiments on to the next generation. Jourdan's actions show me that he was a man who rose above and became a better person, freeing his children from the bonage of permanent victimhood and hopelessness. I guess that's why the Bible tells us over and over to be thankful for what God gives us rather than coveting what others have.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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The thing I found most inspiring was that instead of whining about his circumstances, Jourdan put his energies into improving his lot. I'm sure there were many other former slaves who lived out their days consumed with bitterness, envy and righteous anger, passing those sentiments on to the next generation. Jourdan's actions show me that he was a man who rose above and became a better person, freeing his children from the bonage of permanent victimhood and hopelessness. I guess that's why the Bible tells us over and over to be thankful for what God gives us rather than coveting what others have.

Consumed by envy? A freed slave who notices that he is being paid considerably less than a white man for identical work and recognises that this is unfair is consumed by envy? And if he dared speak out against these conditions he is "whining"? I suppose Martin Luther King and the civil rights movement were just "whining" because they were so bitter and absorbed by their covetousness of the white man, right? It seems to me that whenever you use the words "envy" and "whining" you do so only as an excuse for dismissing a person's complaints (without even examining whether their grievance is legitimate) and for maintaining the status quo.
 
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childofGod1

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True...but the whole picture of corporate responsibilities change when the workers become just as important as profits. When profits become more important than people, than greed can take over…and that IS evil. Corporate Greed is the very thing that crashed our economy.

.


I would have to disagree with you. While greed played a part, it couldn't have crashed the economy without the cooperation of political powerlust, which is at least as evil as greed. A properly limited government is unable to participate in the kind of corruption that allows greed to run rampant. Limited government manipulation allows the market to put natural limits on businesses through competition and consumer demand, while too much government involvement enables, encourages, and nearly guarantees abuses and imbalances.
 
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heymikey80

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Why even today we see the inspirational aspects of this equality!

Picture-48.png

(SOURCE)

Yes, capitalism at work! You go, Jourdan! You go!
Hm. You're saying high income blacks didn't save money they earned, but used it?

Isn't that a choice people are allowed to make, and a reflection of personal or cultural values?

Are we supposed to demand people change their personal or cultural choices and values?

I oppose such government intrusion into personal, cultural choices -- enabling or disabling it would seem to be overly intrusive into personal lives and minority culture.
 
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childofGod1

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I agree with that if there is competition within the market, but since we have monopoly capitalism the profits are helped along by a corupt government.

Thank you! If we could get the government out of the market, they'd be unable to create the monopolies and unable to support them through corruption. Then natural market forces such as competition would limit profits. These imbalances in the market are not accidents or natural market fluctuations, they're the result of pressures the government exerts on the market.
 
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childofGod1

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Not the whole story obviously.

Profit is the difference between the cost to make something and the price it fetches in the market.

If I make a widget for $50 and today it costs me $10 to make it (including both fixed and variable costs) I get a profit of $40.

But if one of the costs I burden mysefl with is the cost of employees' salaries, all I need do there is offshore the jobs to where the salary is lower. I will have to pay for transportation of the goods, but in many cases I can find a combination of "labor+transportation" that is less than the original labor I had.

Now it costs me $8 to make the product and I've increased my profit.

Therein lies the rub if you will.

So why do you think a few years back more corporations decided to get away from raises and move over to better bonuses? Because raises "stick" and bonuses come and go based on the performance of the business.

All the while the top executives keep raking in giant sums. Even when they have a middling year they may still get up to 100% of the salary in bonus.

That's why middle income wages stagnate for decades while CEO salaries go up and up and up and up.

The companies turn a profit and their profit grows even without increasing sales.

I am starting up my own company, I'll make the widgets at a cost of $10/ea, sell them for $20, make a tidy profit and take the market away from that company. It'll effectively raise my worker's (and all workers)income by $30 for every widget they would have bought at $50, at no cost to me. Oh no, I can't produce those, there are too many government regulations. I would have to buy politicians to get past the bureacratic red tape, and I refuse to participate in corruption and bribery. So much for a better life...
 
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