In what cases can a traditional church be banned in democratic states? The Ukrainian Orthodox Church may be banned.

[ValeriyK2022]

The Ukrainian parliament is currently voting on a law that bans religious organizations associated with the aggressor country (Russia).

At the same time, not only journalists and bloggers, but also many people's deputies are directly saying that this law is being specifically drawn up to ban the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - the traditional largest Christian denomination in Ukraine.

It feels like an experiment is being conducted: how will not only the citizens of Ukraine, but also the citizens of democratic countries react to this.
On the one hand, everything is logical: we are waging a war with Russia, which means we must do everything that is unpleasant to Russia.

But on the other hand, what if what is unpleasant to Russia harms us more than it harms Russia? What should we do about it?

There are just over 20 million people left in Ukraine, 6 of whom are members of the UOC, they were baptized there, married there, and buried their loved ones there. Can you imagine what kind of split within society this could cause? Is it possible to imagine that in the event of a war between Italy and France, the Catholic Church would be banned in France because the Pope is in the capital of Italy? How do democratic countries feel about such things?

A condition is set that either the church unites with schismatic organizations, or with the OCU (which Ukrainian citizens do not want to join because they see it only as a political organization, and not a church, in which many canons have been violated), or with the exarchate of the Patriarchate of Constantinople (but monks, priests and bishops made a vow to God to serve this church and according to Orthodox canons, it is forbidden to transfer to other churches without permission). In a word, the Orthodox UOC are not given a single option on how to legally cooperate with the state of Ukraine without violating the canons adopted at the Ecumenical Councils of the Orthodox Church and local councils.

How would a similar situation be treated in the United States or other democratic countries?

 

[ValeriyK2022]

In terms of rationality, one of my acquaintances commented on such steps by comparing Ukraine to a small child who was offended by his grandmother and, in order to make the grandmother nervous, he decided to freeze his ears.

And how does this relate to the protection of democracy? After all, you can’t oppress a religious minority* just because it is historically connected to the aggressor country, right?

*(Now in Ukraine:

the majority are not Christians, they believe that Jesus Christ was not God and that the Gospel is not the Word of God,

in second place are the Christians of the UOC,

then the Christians of the neo-Protestant communities,

then the Greek Catholic Christians, and then all the other Christians.

Approximately such is the structure of society. Moreover, even those who belong to the first group were most often majority baptized and (or) married in the UOC.)

 

[rusmeister]

I hear you. It’s all horrible. It’s a reason that I never became partisan to any one side. All of the sides have gone bad in one way or another. Only the Church under Metropolitan Onuphry seems to have avoided besmirching itself with secular politics. only they, it seems are being persecuted and not persecuting.

 

[ValeriyK2022]

Church under Metropolitan Onuphry seems to have avoided besmirching itself with secular politics.

Today, the President anyway signed this law ...

 

[Nick1000]

Today, the President anyway signed this law ...

It's a dark period and unfortunately makes Ukraine look more Russian than they might like. And I don't mean that in a good way. (see link below).

There is nothing good that will come from Russia's war of aggression against Ukraine. Just darkness and misery. In the past there has been a lot of banter about how Putin was and will be the great protector and consolidator of Christianity and Orthodoxy so what a great man is he. That is all complete and total horsefeathers. Nothing but division and misery and militarization of Christianity as far as the eye can see.

Meanwhile, Day 915 of the 3-day war.

'Not a single Catholic priest' left in Russian-occupied Ukraine, reveals major archbishop​

'Not a single Catholic priest' left in Russian-occupied Ukraine, reveals major archbishop

Russian forces have driven out all Greek and Roman Catholic clergy from the occupied areas of Ukraine, said the head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.

www.ncronline.org

 

[ValeriyK2022]

It's a dark period and unfortunately makes Ukraine look more Russian than they might like. And I don't mean that in a good way. (see link below).

There is nothing good that will come from Russia's war of aggression against Ukraine. Just darkness and misery. In the past there has been a lot of banter about how Putin was and will be the great protector and consolidator of Christianity and Orthodoxy so what a great man is he. That is all complete and total horsefeathers. Nothing but division and misery and militarization of Christianity as far as the eye can see.

Meanwhile, Day 915 of the 3-day war.

'Not a single Catholic priest' left in Russian-occupied Ukraine, reveals major archbishop​

'Not a single Catholic priest' left in Russian-occupied Ukraine, reveals major archbishop

Russian forces have driven out all Greek and Roman Catholic clergy from the occupied areas of Ukraine, said the head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.

www.ncronline.org

I agree that these are Russia's methods - to forbid something by force. In democratic countries, to which Ukraine belonged before the war, people moved from one church to another by force of words, force of persuasion, and not by force of physical force or prohibitions.

What is frightening is that Ukraine is becoming similar to Russia during the war (and in two issues - mobilization through territorial army recruitment centers and the ban on the UOC on its territory) Ukraine has already gone further than Russia. Russia has not touched Catholics on its own territory, only on the occupied territory, and Ukraine is trying to liquidate the UOC, in which the majority of Ukrainians are baptized and married, on its own territory, not on the occupied territory. The scary thing is that Ukraine may remain a small copy of Russia. Then what did our soldiers die for? To live in a small copy of Russia?

 

[ValeriyK2022]

Russians can travel abroad - Ukrainians cannot (although there is no law prohibiting this and this violates the constitution of Ukraine, which states that only a law can impose a restriction on leaving Ukraine during wartime).

Russians are not caught on the streets and are not fined for not going to military registration and enlistment offices. Russia has taken a commercial route: it hires those who want to fight for money.

Russia has banned its clergy from speaking out against the war, but Russia is not trying to liquidate the largest Christian denomination on its territory.

There were presidential elections in Russia, but not in Ukraine.

Are we overtaking Russia in oppressing our own people?

Some political analysts on Ukrainian TV say that Ukrainians should be prepared for war from the age of 10. And how many years will we remain such a small copy of Russia? Or will they leave us in this state forever?

 

[The Liturgist]

Are we overtaking Russia in oppressing our own people?

Yes, clearly.

 

[ValeriyK2022]

Члены УПЦ в знак поддержки своей веры и своей церкви в эти дни проводят крестный ход в Почаевскую Лавру по нескольким областям Украины. Ежегодно в нем принимают участие десятки тысяч верующих (некоторые православные общественности называют цифру в 100 тысяч):

Очень трогательная песня в исполнении хора Почаевской Лавры (за кулисами):

 

[E.C.]

What also does not help is that because Zelensky is at least nominally Jewish, some Orthodox are already using this as an excuse to be antisemetic.

The reality is that the fake "unification council" and schism between Moscow and Constantinople happened in 2018 under Ukrainian President, Petro Poroshenko. Metropolitan Onuphry and the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church have had an uneasy existence since Crimea was taken and Donbas initially began separation in 2014. Naturally, the persecution against them has begun since at least 2018 though I believe it started long before (I've lost track).

I mention this because as tempting as it is for ignorant Orthodox Christians to take the antisemetic route due to Zelensky's nominal Jewishness, it is not accurate. The persecution began long before him under a nominally Ukrainian Orthodox Christian president. The majority of Ukrainian Parliament's MPs are also at least nominally Ukrainian Orthodox. So, if you're going to blame someone, be sure to blame the correct person.


EDIT TO ADD: His Beatitude Metropolitan Tikhon Leads Delegation of the Orthodox Church in America to Ukraine

Please remember, the entire OCA has supported Metropolitan Onuphry and the UOC for decades. We made our position clear in 2019 after the OCA's Holy Synod studied the matter following the creation of the fraudulent OCU. We have also prayed for an end to the war since the war began. I know it is not much, but please remember that the UOC has the support of the OCA, Bulgarian, Serbian, and Antiochian Orthodox Churches.

 

[E.C.]

How would a similar situation be treated in the United States or other democratic countries?

It is hard to say; we have a strong Constitution and system of checks and balances between government branches that keep such things from happening.

The only real precedent that I can think of that is similar could be that status of Muslims in America after 9/11. After 9/11 there was no mass shutting down of mosques even though anti-Islamism was rather high. In fact I seem to recall there was more of an effort made that it was understood that not all Muslims are terrorists. Anti-Muslim violence still happened, but more often than not the perpetrators were likely held accountable on the grounds of violating the First Amendment.
However, some of the Islamic imams that openly advocated terrorism against the US and her allies have mostly ended up either in prison or killed by a drone strike on foreign soil. Some individual charities were shut down after they were found to be raising money for terrorist groups, but there was no massive scale banning of any and all things Islamic.

The US, specifically the FBI, tends to act against individual organizations once they are found guilty of a crime or there is compelling evidence of crime happening, but not an entire group. There was violence against the Mormons in their early days which resulted in their flight to Utah, but today they are just another non-profit religious organization with a heavy presence in Utah, southern Idaho and other areas. The anti-Mormon violence before their flight to Utah was also carried out by either the local population or the local government (city/county, maybe state); I don't think it was ever carried out by the federal government though.

 

[ValeriyK2022]

What also does not help is that because Zelensky is at least nominally Jewish, some Orthodox are already using this as an excuse to be antisemetic.

The reality is that the fake "unification council" and schism between Moscow and Constantinople happened in 2018 under Ukrainian President, Petro Poroshenko. Metropolitan Onuphry and the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church have had an uneasy existence since Crimea was taken and Donbas initially began separation in 2014. Naturally, the persecution against them has begun since at least 2018 though I believe it started long before (I've lost track).

I mention this because as tempting as it is for ignorant Orthodox Christians to take the antisemetic route due to Zelensky's nominal Jewishness, it is not accurate. The persecution began long before him under a nominally Ukrainian Orthodox Christian president. The majority of Ukrainian Parliament's MPs are also at least nominally Ukrainian Orthodox. So, if you're going to blame someone, be sure to blame the correct person.


EDIT TO ADD: His Beatitude Metropolitan Tikhon Leads Delegation of the Orthodox Church in America to Ukraine

Please remember, the entire OCA has supported Metropolitan Onuphry and the UOC for decades. We made our position clear in 2019 after the OCA's Holy Synod studied the matter following the creation of the fraudulent OCU. We have also prayed for an end to the war since the war began. I know it is not much, but please remember that the UOC has the support of the OCA, Bulgarian, Serbian, and Antiochian Orthodox Churches.

Nobody generalizes Jews. Many Jews in Ukraine and Russia have adopted the Orthodox faith. The structure of Jews in our countries is as follows:
1) Jews who do not believe in God who created heaven and earth - they are the majority;
2) Jewish Christians, including Orthodox, including members of the UOC;
3) Jewish Jews who regularly go to synagogue and believe in the Talmud and God the creator of heaven and earth. There are the fewest of these in Ukraine and Russia, because most of them left for Israel.

Thus, nobody generalizes Jews based on their nationality. And the initiators were not Jewish Christians or even Jewish Jews, but people who do not believe in the God who created heaven and earth.

We are grateful to the OCA and other Orthodox churches of the world that support the UOC!

 

[ValeriyK2022]

Well, you see, the USA restrained anti-Muslim demonstrations based on existing laws.

The FBI found those Muslims who were involved in terrorism or financed it.

With us, it's the other way around. Many members of the UOC fought and are fighting, defending Ukraine from Russian aggression, and at the same time, in the rear, their churches are being taken away by those who have never been to war. They are fighting in the rear against the believers of the UOC.

Ukrainians are shocked by this fraudulent trick. Not everyone supported the Maidan revolution to overthrow Yanukovych. But even those who were against such a change of power expected that now at least there would be democracy, like in the US and the EU. And then we are told that democracy interferes with war, and the war can drag on for decades. The people are shocked by this trick, they feel offended and deceived.

Of course, there is no point in complaining to all the brothers and sisters in Christ. We must complain to God, because only He can fix this. But perhaps your prayers and your support will help us get through this.

 

[The Liturgist]

It is hard to say; we have a strong Constitution and system of checks and balances between government branches that keep such things from happening.

The only real precedent that I can think of that is similar could be that status of Muslims in America after 9/11. After 9/11 there was no mass shutting down of mosques even though anti-Islamism was rather high. In fact I seem to recall there was more of an effort made that it was understood that not all Muslims are terrorists. Anti-Muslim violence still happened, but more often than not the perpetrators were likely held accountable on the grounds of violating the First Amendment.
However, some of the Islamic imams that openly advocated terrorism against the US and her allies have mostly ended up either in prison or killed by a drone strike on foreign soil. Some individual charities were shut down after they were found to be raising money for terrorist groups, but there was no massive scale banning of any and all things Islamic.

The US, specifically the FBI, tends to act against individual organizations once they are found guilty of a crime or there is compelling evidence of crime happening, but not an entire group. There was violence against the Mormons in their early days which resulted in their flight to Utah, but today they are just another non-profit religious organization with a heavy presence in Utah, southern Idaho and other areas. The anti-Mormon violence before their flight to Utah was also carried out by either the local population or the local government (city/county, maybe state); I don't think it was ever carried out by the federal government though.

Also the Mormons engaged in plenty of violence themselves. See the Mountain Meadows massacre.

 

[rusmeister]

I agree that these are Russia's methods - to forbid something by force. In democratic countries, to which Ukraine belonged before the war, people moved from one church to another by force of words, force of persuasion, and not by force of physical force or prohibitions.

What is frightening is that Ukraine is becoming similar to Russia during the war (and in two issues - mobilization through territorial army recruitment centers and the ban on the UOC on its territory) Ukraine has already gone further than Russia. Russia has not touched Catholics on its own territory, only on the occupied territory, and Ukraine is trying to liquidate the UOC, in which the majority of Ukrainians are baptized and married, on its own territory, not on the occupied territory. The scary thing is that Ukraine may remain a small copy of Russia. Then what did our soldiers die for? To live in a small copy of Russia?

I hear you, Valery. I’m paying my own price for this - exile. I could risk returning to my home in Russia but I see that as playing Russian Roulette. From the possibility of a minor government official trying to make his career on me being American and pinning some false charge on me so he can move up the ladder in their search for spies and enemies, to my own bad feelings toward the man who got himself made priest and, I believe, engineered the punishment and exile of all the priests in my area, with him getting the golden spot of rector of our church, the main, renovated, and most prestigious church in the immediate area, and hard feelings towards friends who supported the political positions that led to the danger for me and my family in Russia, and my own struggle to try to forgive them. I can’t imagine going back to my old church with him in charge. I even resist the idea of addressing him as a priest. He did an end-run around our old priest, who forbade it for the entire 20 years I was part of that church, until he died.

And I remember the friendly relations with Ukrainians as recently as 2012, and feel resentment toward the wicked people in our governments - American, Russian, and yeah, Ukrainian, and our church structures, from Pat. Bartholomew to Pat. Kirill who put secular goals above the mission of the Church. and yes, I know I have to work on my own heart and forgiving my enemies. I also have to forgive the kind Muslim doctor who seduced my mother into apostasy and Islam. I hate what is being done to Russia; my own vision for it, as for my native America, and for Ukraine, is that they should be (as much as possible) godly lands of freedom and prosperity. We can’t help wanting that, even though we know that the world is fallen, and we are not wrong to want that.

 

[ValeriyK2022]

I hear you, Valery. I’m paying my own price for this - exile. I could risk returning to my home in Russia but I see that as playing Russian Roulette. From the possibility of a minor government official trying to make his career on me being American and pinning some false charge on me so he can move up the ladder in their search for spies and enemies, to my own bad feelings toward the man who got himself made priest and, I believe, engineered the punishment and exile of all the priests in my area, with him getting the golden spot of rector of our church, the main, renovated, and most prestigious church in the immediate area, and hard feelings towards friends who supported the political positions that led to the danger for me and my family in Russia, and my own struggle to try to forgive them. I can’t imagine going back to my old church with him in charge. I even resist the idea of addressing him as a priest. He did an end-run around our old priest, who forbade it for the entire 20 years I was part of that church, until he died.

And I remember the friendly relations with Ukrainians as recently as 2012, and feel resentment toward the wicked people in our governments - American, Russian, and yeah, Ukrainian, and our church structures, from Pat. Bartholomew to Pat. Kirill who put secular goals above the mission of the Church. and yes, I know I have to work on my own heart and forgiving my enemies. I also have to forgive the kind Muslim doctor who seduced my mother into apostasy and Islam. I hate what is being done to Russia; my own vision for it, as for my native America, and for Ukraine, is that they should be (as much as possible) godly lands of freedom and prosperity. We can’t help wanting that, even though we know that the world is fallen, and we are not wrong to want that.

I understand you very well, Rusmeister. Wars do not happen by chance. As Saint Nikolai of Serbia writes in his book "War and the Bible", wars are caused by the sins that were committed before the war. But the saddest thing is that these sins not only did not decrease, but they intensified during the war in both countries. There was a massive retreat from Christianity, comparable to what happened at the beginning of the 20th century.

We have our own roulette. Any Ukrainian can be caught on the street and sent to the army in handcuffs, and a few weeks later return as an invalid or a corpse. Regarding espionage, I have read the lives of Saint Patriarch Tikhon, Saint Luke Voyno-Yasenetsky and many other bishops and priests who were accused of spying for enemy countries. Neither Russia nor Ukraine have invented anything new, but they take it from the USSR of the Lenin-Stalin period.

It feels like our peoples are being mocked in a sophisticated way, reconstructing for us the events that have already been condemned by the democratic world and ourselves.

Saint John of Shanghai and San Francisco then fled to the United States and survived. If he had stayed in the USSR, there was a high probability of his death.

And it all started with little things. In the early 2000s, Russian humorist and satirist Mikhail Zadornov jokingly told how Putin's personality cult was created. At a party where there was a buffet, he could not reach the sandwiches. Then he stood behind the backs of those eating and said loudly: "I don't like Putin." Everyone immediately moved away from him, as if he were a leper, and he was able to take what he wanted from the table. First comes harsh punishment for the slightest disloyalty and encouragement of sycophants. Then those people who do not have their own opinion see that no one criticizes and everyone praises and begin to praise sincerely (the feeling of the crowd, the desire to be like everyone else).

In Ukraine, 1-2 members of parliament tried to stand up for the UOC, what are they doing to them! For example, Dmitruk was ordered to be murdered by bandits (even before that) and he had police protection, and after he spoke in defense of the UOC in parliament, the authorities removed the police protection from him, making it clear that the state will not protect him from bandits. And this is not an ordinary person. This is the highest level - a member of the legislative body! Can you imagine how they can intimidate ordinary citizens so that they remain silent!?

That is, the state does not threaten deputy Dmitruk, bandits and right-wing radical activists threaten him with reprisals. But the state removed the police protection from him at a time when his life may be in danger.

Ukrainian YouTube is full of slander about Dmitruk being an FSB agent. No proof is needed. The crowd angrily shouts insults on the street and on social networks (along with bots), paid journalists and bloggers write any slander en masse, just so they don't get drafted into the army (drafting into the army is now considered a severe punishment for disloyalty to government policy). And the Russians also try to use such things to justify the war.

 

[ValeriyK2022]

I just read in the news that today MP Dmitruk illegally fled from Ukraine via Moldova. Apparently this was the only chance to save his life.

And this can happen to anyone who dares to seriously defend the UOC.

 

[ValeriyK2022]

Тем временем, сегодня крестный ход прибыл в Почаев:

 

[Nick1000]

Ukraine is trying to make the case for EU membership., while suppressing religious freedom.

Not an easy fit, and it will be an issue.


The European Union (EU) is committed to promoting and protecting freedom of religion or belief (FoRB) for all individuals. This right is enshrined in Article 10 of the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights and includes the freedom to:

• Change religion or belief
  
• Manifest religion or belief in public or private, alone or with others, through worship, teaching, practice, and observance
  
• Conscientiously object, in accordance with national laws

 

[ValeriyK2022]

Ukraine is trying to make the case for EU membership., while suppressing religious freedom.

Not an easy fit, and it will be an issue.


The European Union (EU) is committed to promoting and protecting freedom of religion or belief (FoRB) for all individuals. This right is enshrined in Article 10 of the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights and includes the freedom to:

• Change religion or belief
• Manifest religion or belief in public or private, alone or with others, through worship, teaching, practice, and observance
• Conscientiously object, in accordance with national laws

The government media and media loyal to them don't even mention this anymore. It seems they don't need the EU anymore. They need none knows what.

It feels like we've lost our goals and forgotten what we were striving for.

The enemy is at the center of their entire life. Therefore, they are counter-dependent on the enemy's actions. If Russia says that it wants Ukraine to join the EU and NATO, then ours will say the opposite, that to spite Russia we will not join either the EU or NATO. That is, in my opinion, no one cares about our national interests, but only to spite the enemy.

And what’s scary is that those who have power, big money and own the media will decide where we will go now, that is, less than 1% of the population will decide for 99% of the population.

Maybe I'm wrong. But it feels like the river is taking us in a completely different direction than we need to go and there's no strength to resist the current.

The only option is to pray to God to reach us some solid shore and not fly into the abyss with the waterfall.