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In This Thread: replacements for "cisgender"

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SepiaAndDust

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To exclude and divide? What, you mean like "cis people only"? Well, no, that doesn't happen.

Yeah, it does happen. Except for in a few scholarly studies, the only times I've seen cisgendered used is as a way to entirely dismiss the opinions of those whose gender matches their bodies. Sometimes, the opinions were stupid and should have been dismissed, but not because the person expressing them was cisgendered. Other times, though, the opinions seemed reasonable enough, but were rejected outright because of gender-identity.

Usually, it's in the form of "Let me guess, you're a cis, white, hetero male, right?"


People just pass laws banning trans people from using the bathroom and call it a day.

That's an entirely different topic.
 
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lasthero

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Except for in a few scholarly studies, the only times I've see cisgendered used is as a way to entirely dismiss the opinions of those whose gender matches their bodies. Sometimes, the opinions were stupid and should have been dismissed, but not because the person expressing them was cisgendered. Other times, though, the opinions seemed reasonable enough, but were rejected outright because of gender-identity.

I've seen it used innocently enough in plenty of discussions.
 
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ScottA

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Problems with "normal", as pointed out several times by now:

  • It attaches a stigma, implying that it is somehow
You are saying (above from the OP) that there is a "problem" with "normal"...which is like reverse prejudice - only worse in this case - because there is nothing wrong with normal in the first place.

That is my point: the problem is turning everything around and pointing the finger at the wrong party. Normal, is not the problem.
 
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JeffofGallifrey

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I honestly wish that we could look past gender and whether someone is cis or trans and stop labeling people. But there are bigger problems here than people labeling each other. You know, like people murdering trans women, and bathroom bills, and transgender people getting fired for their gender-identity. Most transgender people probably wish that the worst thing that ever happened to them because of their gender identity was an annoying label.
 
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SepiaAndDust

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I honestly wish that we could look past gender and whether someone is cis or trans and stop labeling people. But there are bigger problems here than people labeling each other. You know, like people murdering trans women, and bathroom bills, and transgender people getting fired for their gender-identity. Most transgender people probably wish that the worst thing that ever happened to them because of their gender identity was an annoying label.

People murdering trans women are criminals and should be locked away. Nobody I've ever met is a part of that problem. People who fire transgender people because of their gender-identity are bad people. Nobody I've ever known is a part of that problem, except for maybe a couple of lawmakers who support the much broader at-will employment laws.

As to the bathroom bills, I can see both sides. Transgender people deserve the same basic rights as everybody else, namely a safe place to go to the bathroom. Non-transgendered women, similarly, deserve the same basic rights as everyone else--namely, not being ogled, commented on, or raped by the guy in the next stall. (It's not the transgender people that I worry about, it's the non-transgender men who will--yes will--use that for access.) This probably isn't the thread for that discussion, though.
 
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JeffofGallifrey

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People murdering trans women are criminals and should be locked away. Nobody I've ever met is a part of that problem. People who fire transgender people because of their gender-identity are bad people. Nobody I've ever known is a part of that problem, except for maybe a couple of lawmakers who support the much broader at-will employment laws.

As to the bathroom bills, I can see both sides. Transgender people deserve the same basic rights as everybody else, namely a safe place to go to the bathroom. Non-transgendered women, similarly, deserve the same basic rights as everyone else--namely, not being ogled, commented on, or raped by the guy in the next stall. (It's not the transgender people that I worry about, it's the non-transgender men who will--yes will--use that for access.) This probably isn't the thread for that discussion, though.
Oh, yeah. There's another thread for that, I believe...

But yeah, while I'm keeping the term "cisgender" in my vocabulary, I won't be applying it to you. And anyone who does probably doesn't mean it as an insult, because you seem like the sort of non-transgender person who accepts transgender people as normal human beings.
 
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SepiaAndDust

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Oh, yeah. There's another thread for that, I believe...

But yeah, while I'm keeping the term "cisgender" in my vocabulary, I won't be applying it to you. And anyone who does probably doesn't mean it as an insult

I appreciate that. Thing is, though, every time it's been applied directly to me (as opposed to a group that I may be part of), it's been meant to insult, degrade, or discount my opinion. Outside of a couple of threads on this messageboard, I can't recall a time when it's ever been directly applied to an individual and meant as just a description, not a judgment of value.


ETA: I was just thinking that maybe that's confirmation bias on my part. Maybe I just don't really notice when it's not being used insultingly. I'll keep an eye on that from now on.


because you seem like the sort of non-transgender person who accepts transgender people as normal human beings.

Yet I'm the guy the frothing-at-the mouth SJWs are alienating. Still, as much as those guys tick me off, I reserve my real rage for Americans who don't believe that every other American should have equal protection under the law.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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It attaches a stigma, implying that it is somehow "abnormal" to not be cisgendered

Medically speaking, it is abnormal. Gender Dysphoria is a clinically defined condition.

I completely understand wanting to be sensitive to their condition, but to pretend that their condition is the norm is not accurate.

It's extremely vague and non-descriptive; there are any number of behaviors we consider "normal", many of which are cultural rather than physical, and saying "that person is normal"

Why is there only the big push for this in terms of gender identity when it comes to medically defined issues? Why is it that it's acceptable to use the terms "normal/average" weight and "overweight/obese" in the context of discussions about the issue of obesity?

It's far too broad; given the sheer number of things we tend to label as "normal", calling someone "normal" does not concisely or clearly communicate the issue.

When speaking in the context of a conversation about a specific medical condition, normal is adequate as it communicates the lack of the condition being discussed.

When I got a strep throat test last year, my doctor called to let me know that my test came back "normal", he didn't call to say "great news, you're cis-throated!!!"

When he said that, I didn't question him and say "well...ya know, can we really say what NORMAL is?...I mean, it's so subjective and what's normal to one person might not be the same for everyone" ...no, I said "oh, awesome, that means I don't have strep!"
 
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The Cadet

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Medically speaking, it is abnormal. Gender Dysphoria is a clinically defined condition.

I completely understand wanting to be sensitive to their condition, but to pretend that their condition is the norm is not accurate.
Gender Dysphoria is a clinically defined condition. Here's a key thing, though: being trans does not necessarily imply dysphoria. And even when it does (I will admit, probably the majority of cases), the nature of the issue is that stigmatizing it as "abnormal" makes it worse. We can call it "feelings police" all we want, but the fact is that for someone suffering from a serious mental condition such as this, "hurting their feelings" can be a very big deal. Which may help answer your second question:

Why is there only the big push for this in terms of gender identity when it comes to medically defined issues? Why is it that it's acceptable to use the terms "normal/average" weight and "overweight/obese" in the context of discussions about the issue of obesity?

We do the same thing with the autism spectrum, by the way. I consider that a significant reason why "cisgendered" is a much better term than simply "normal", along with everything else I pointed out.

As it should. Normal is normal, and abnormal is abnormal and [should] natually suffer.

I hope for your sake that society doesn't someday start to see believing in, talking to, and taking advice from a supernatural, personal, interventionist deity as "abnormal".
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Gender Dysphoria is a clinically defined condition. Here's a key thing, though: being trans does not necessarily imply dysphoria. And even when it does (I will admit, probably the majority of cases), the nature of the issue is that stigmatizing it as "abnormal" makes it worse. We can call it "feelings police" all we want, but the fact is that for someone suffering from a serious mental condition such as this, "hurting their feelings" can be a very big deal. Which may help answer your second question:

I have no issues with sort of playing into their psyche when dealing with them directly, that's what makes them the most comfortable, and that's what is recommended from the APA in terms of improvement of qualify of life.

However, it's how we interact with each other (when not interacting directly with them) that I find concerning... what I mean by that, is that pretending that "there's not a thing wrong" then also removes pressure from society on the scientific community to work toward a cure or more effective treatment options.

For example, if a person has schizophrenia, and hears a voice in their head named Eric...it's perfectly reasonable for us to maybe play into it and pretend that Eric is real for their sake in efforts to provide empathy and comfort while they're having an episode when directly dealing with them.

However, we would come here on CF and have a serious conversation about "whether or not Eric actually is real?".
We wouldn't be saying "well, who really knows was REAL is anyway...".

If people took the same attitude toward schizophrenia back in the day that they take toward Gender Dysphoria now, the drug Thorazine would've never been invented. The pressure on the scientific community to research that came from a sense of urgency from society that said "this is serious abnormality, we need to try to fix it".

From the time the first definition and categorization of Schizophrenia in 1911, within ~40 years scientists and researchers developed Thorazine, a drug that treats the condition with a 72% success rate. All in all...not too shabby.

Gender Dysphoria was first categorized and defined in 1980, what progress has been made by the medical field in the last 36 years? From my vantage point, all of the efforts have been centered around convincing everyone in society that it's not a condition, rather than trying to actually develop treatments for the condition. (aside from some clinical trials done in the UK with puberty-delaying drugs in the mid-2000's)

You're right in that the underlying issue is assimilation into society...when people are made to feel like outcasts or different from everyone else, it only exacerbates existing issues. However, at some point we went from looking at those scenarios and saying "wow, this problem really prevents a person from assimilating into society and causes a whole host of issues, we really need to figure out how to fix this problem!" - to - "we need everyone else in society to change to accommodate this one person's dysphoria-induced belief...calling it "a problem" makes them feel bad, so we all just need to pretend that there's absolutely nothing medically wrong here"

I think we can (and should) strive for a best of both worlds approach here. We can be sympathetic to the situation, without deluding ourselves (intentionally) into think "there's absolutely nothing wrong here". The fact that, even in societies where it's far more accepted, the suicide attempt rate still nears 40%, shows us that there's something wrong and other pitfalls that go along with this condition that make it worth of researching and seeking a cure. This isn't simply a benign issue that's strictly cosmetically centered where "if society just accepted it as normal, everything would be okay"
 
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Armoured

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I have no issues with sort of playing into their psyche when dealing with them directly, that's what makes them the most comfortable, and that's what is recommended from the APA in terms of improvement of qualify of life.

However, it's how we interact with each other (when not interacting directly with them) that I find concerning... what I mean by that, is that pretending that "there's not a thing wrong" then also removes pressure from society on the scientific community to work toward a cure or more effective treatment options.

For example, if a person has schizophrenia, and hears a voice in their head named Eric...it's perfectly reasonable for us to maybe play into it and pretend that Eric is real for their sake in efforts to provide empathy and comfort while they're having an episode when directly dealing with them.

However, we would come here on CF and have a serious conversation about "whether or not Eric actually is real?".
We wouldn't be saying "well, who really knows was REAL is anyway...".

If people took the same attitude toward schizophrenia back in the day that they take toward Gender Dysphoria now, the drug Thorazine would've never been invented. The pressure on the scientific community to research that came from a sense of urgency from society that said "this is serious abnormality, we need to try to fix it".

From the time the first definition and categorization of Schizophrenia in 1911, within ~40 years scientists and researchers developed Thorazine, a drug that treats the condition with a 72% success rate. All in all...not too shabby.

Gender Dysphoria was first categorized and defined in 1980, what progress has been made by the medical field in the last 36 years? From my vantage point, all of the efforts have been centered around convincing everyone in society that it's not a condition, rather than trying to actually develop treatments for the condition. (aside from some clinical trials done in the UK with puberty-delaying drugs in the mid-2000's)

You're right in that the underlying issue is assimilation into society...when people are made to feel like outcasts or different from everyone else, it only exacerbates existing issues. However, at some point we went from looking at those scenarios and saying "wow, this problem really prevents a person from assimilating into society and causes a whole host of issues, we really need to figure out how to fix this problem!" - to - "we need everyone else in society to change to accommodate this one person's dysphoria-induced belief...calling it "a problem" makes them feel bad, so we all just need to pretend that there's absolutely nothing medically wrong here"

I think we can (and should) strive for a best of both worlds approach here. We can be sympathetic to the situation, without deluding ourselves (intentionally) into think "there's absolutely nothing wrong here". The fact that, even in societies where it's far more accepted, the suicide attempt rate still nears 40%, shows us that there's something wrong and other pitfalls that go along with this condition that make it worth of researching and seeking a cure. This isn't simply a benign issue that's strictly cosmetically centered where "if society just accepted it as normal, everything would be okay"
Making value judgements like "there's something wrong here" is different to something being abnormal. Technically, left handers are abnormal. Red heads are abnormal. But when you add the value judgement, things become more complex.
 
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Albion

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Are we not being told what we can say and not say?

Men who identify as men. That is NORMAL. But no, that is offensive.

It is crap like this that fuels the Trump bunch.
Aren't the Trump bunch the ones who call things what they are (and get in trouble with the 'thought control' types because of it)?
 
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Cute Tink

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