In the name of Emmanuel?

[precepts]

My question is why is Christ called Jesus and not Emmanuel as prophesied? If Emmanuel means "God with us" and Jesus means "I am salvation", how can Jesus replace the importance of "God with us"?

Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Isa 8:8 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach [even] to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.

How and when did Jesus replace Emmanuel?

Luk 2:21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

It was?

Mat 21:9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.

Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

"God with us" would be in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Why would he have to keep them in his Father's/his name? Would it be changed?

Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

I think we've been decieved on the significance of the name of the messiah.

 

[BeforeTheFoundation]

Emmanuel isn't so much of a name as it is a title (though don't think of it as a title like 'king' or 'judge'). Jesus on the other hand is a name. (I know that in Isaiah and Matthew it says that you shall call his name Emmanuel which seems like it is intended to be a name, but I think that it is more similar to if you said that someone's name will be called blessed. You don't mean that his or her name is actually the word 'blessed' you mean basically that they are a blessing.)

As for this:

How and when did Jesus replace Emmanuel?

Luk 2:21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
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It was?

Mary may not have been told to name him Jesus in the Matthew passage that you quote but keep in mind that this comes from Luke and in Luke 1:31 the angel says

And behold,(BG) you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and(BH) you shall call his name Jesus.

"God with us" would be in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

I am not entirely sure where you are getting this from in your quotes.

Why would he have to keep them in his Father's/his name? Would it be changed?

I think that you are misunderstanding what this verse means. To keep someone in the Father's name most likely means that he was keeping them in the way of the Father. In other words he was instructing them as to how to follow God. the idea of someone's name in the ancient world had many additional contexts that do not exist anymore.

I think we've been decieved on the significance of the name of the messiah.

Again, being baptized in the name of the Lord doesn't mean that there is some secret name that has been lost for all time that we need to discover it. As long as someone is baptized under the beliefs of the Holy Trinity then they are baptized in the name of the Lord.

 

[precepts]

And I suppose that "Jesus" is hebrew? The angel of God would give Christ a Greek/Latin name? Please explain.

 

[ebia]

And I suppose that "Jesus" is hebrew? The angel of God would give Christ a Greek/Latin name? Please explain.

Jesus is the English rendering of the Greek rendering of the hebrew name that would be directly rendered from Hebrew to English as Joshua. Jesus mum would have called him by one of the original Hebrew/Aramaic forms of that name and he would have called her Miriam, but when writing in Greek those get rendered in Greek as Iesous and Maria, which become in English Jesus and Mary. (Both extraordinarly common names in 1st century Palestine.) Except, of course, when the authors want to draw attention to the OT connections - so in John 20 Jesus calls Mary Mags "Mariam", not "Maria" as it is rendered in the rest of John - but most translations translate them both to Mary so we loose the insight.

 

[precepts]

Hogwash! So you're saying that the angel named Christ Joshua?
Is that the same Joshua that walked with Moses, the Joshua of Zechariah 6:11-13, who was crowned King and High Priest?
Zec 6:11 Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set [them] upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;
Zec 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name [is] The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
Zec 6:13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
Dig deeper, you're missing the significance of the name Emmanuel.

 

[ebia]

Hogwash!

What a indepth argument.

So you're saying that the angel named Christ Joshua?

Apparently so.

Is that the same Joshua that walked with Moses, the Joshua of Zechariah

It's the same name, and there are important connections. That's not to say that they are the same person.

Dig deeper, you're missing the significance of the name Emmanuel.

Not at all. Jesus brings together all sorts of the themes, including Emmanuel. To nail it down to one is to utterly miss the point.

 

[Simonline]

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[Simonline]

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[Simonline]

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[precepts]

ebia's

It's the same name, and there are important connections. That's not to say that they are the same person.

If that is so then why did you not comment on Zec 6:11-13?


ebia's

Not at all. Jesus brings together all sorts of the themes, including Emmanuel. To nail it down to one is to utterly miss the point.

So where in the scriptures is Isaiah's prophecy fulfilled?


Simonline's

It is YHWH alone who is our saviour (Isa.43.10-13; 44:6-8). The Messiah (or Christ if you prefer) is YHWH Himself, incarnate as a human creature. As such, the Messiah is both Emmanuel and Jesus (i.e. YHWH with us and the Saviour). The Messiah has no separate and/or independent existence apart from YHWH (Jn.10:30-33). This is what many people (including, sadly, many Christians) utterly fail to comprehend.

The Messiah is not YHWH's ambassador, YHWH's representative, YHWH's 'Jewish Pope' or even YHWH's son (?!). No! The Messiah is YHWH Himself, i.e. the Person of the Son (who, whilst being the Son of the Father is NOT the Son of YHWH because both the Father and the Son, along with the Holy Spirit, IS YHWH), incarnate as a human creature.

Each name or title that is ascribed to the Messiah, as YHWH Himself incarnate as a man, reflects a different aspect of the total reality that is YHWH incarnate as a human creature. The name Emmanuel is just as important in relation to the Messiah as is the name Jesus.

Once again, how is Isaiah's prophecy fulfilled if a virgin didn't give birth to a son name Emmanuel.

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[precepts]

ebia's

It's the same name, and there are important connections. That's not to say that they are the same person.

If that is so, why did you not comment on Zec 6:11-13?


ebia's

Not at all. Jesus brings together all sorts of the themes, including Emmanuel. To nail it down to one is to utterly miss the point.

So where in the scriptures is Isaiah's prophecy fulfilled?


Simonline's

It is YHWH alone who is our saviour (Isa.43.10-13; 44:6-8). The Messiah (or Christ if you prefer) is YHWH Himself, incarnate as a human creature. As such, the Messiah is both Emmanuel and Jesus (i.e. YHWH with us and the Saviour). The Messiah has no separate and/or independent existence apart from YHWH (Jn.10:30-33). This is what many people (including, sadly, many Christians) utterly fail to comprehend.

The Messiah is not YHWH's ambassador, YHWH's representative, YHWH's 'Jewish Pope' or even YHWH's son (?!). No! The Messiah is YHWH Himself, i.e. the Person of the Son (who, whilst being the Son of the Father is NOT the Son of YHWH because both the Father and the Son, along with the Holy Spirit, IS YHWH), incarnate as a human creature.

Each name or title that is ascribed to the Messiah, as YHWH Himself incarnate as a man, reflects a different aspect of the total reality that is YHWH incarnate as a human creature. The name Emmanuel is just as important in relation to the Messiah as is the name Jesus.

Once again, how is Isaiah's prophecy fulfilled if a virgin didn't give birth to a son name Emmanuel

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[BeforeTheFoundation]

Hogwash! So you're saying that the angel named Christ Joshua?
Is that the same Joshua that walked with Moses, the Joshua of Zechariah 6:11-13, who was crowned King and High Priest?
Zec 6:11 Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set [them] upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;
Zec 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name [is] The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
Zec 6:13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
Dig deeper, you're missing the significance of the name Emmanuel.

Ummm... it is an undisputed fact that the name Jesus is the Greek rendering of the Hebrew name Joshua. If you want to deny that then it is obvious that you do not understand.

And I suppose that "Jesus" is hebrew? The angel of God would give Christ a Greek/Latin name? Please explain.

And yes, essentially the name 'Jesus' is Hebrew. Trust me, I have studied both Greek and Hebrew.

Not at all. Jesus brings together all sorts of the themes, including Emmanuel. To nail it down to one is to utterly miss the point.

Precisely.

So where in the scriptures is Isaiah's prophecy fulfilled?

Like I said before, Emmanuel is not meant to be a name. Think of it more like a title. Everyday I pray to God and say "Hallowed be thy name" This does not mean that I think that God's name is 'Hallowed' I am merely saying that God is holy. Likewise, Jesus' proper name should not be Emmanuel, we are saying that Jesus is 'God with us'. The difference is that Emmanuel should not be thought of as a proper name it should be thought of more as an adjective.

 

[precepts]

I'm not here to argue but to enlighten. This is my last point since you're only giving me your opinion and not biblical facts to support your argument.

Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
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Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
​

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The scripture says "call his name Emmanuel" not he shall be Emmanuel or his title shall be Emmanuel, you're using excuses. I consider your explanation as adding to scripture.

BeforeTheFoundation's Opinion

Like I said before, Emmanuel is not meant to be a name. Think of it more like a title. Everyday I pray to God and say "Hallowed be thy name" This does not mean that I think that God's name is 'Hallowed' I am merely saying that God is holy. Likewise, Jesus' proper name should not be Emmanuel, we are saying that Jesus is 'God with us'. The difference is that Emmanuel should not be thought of as a proper name it should be thought of more as an adjective.

BeforeTheFoundation 3:6-7

So we're suppose to assume that "Jesus" is Emmanuel's other name or should it be stated in scripture?
No further questions, your honor, the defense rests.
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[BeforeTheFoundation]

No further questions, your honor, the defense rests.

Wow, the defense rests on such a weak case as a random misreading of what I said and an ad hominem?

So we're suppose to assume that "Jesus" is Emmanuel's other name or should it be stated in scripture?

This question doesn't even make sense. If you are asking what I think you are asking then I again have to say: Emmanuel is not a name. Read that again because I have said it several times before and I still get the impression that not only do you disagree (which is fine) you don't understand what I am saying. Jesus is a name. Bob is a name. James is a name. Emmanuel is a title. King is a title.

 

[ebia]

ebia's
If that is so, why did you not comment on Zec 6:11-13?

Because I didn't see anything that needed saying. If you quote something without fully explaining why you are quoting it I'm liable to ignore it.

ebia's
So where in the scriptures is Isaiah's prophecy fulfilled?

Jesus is "God with us", and has been called that/Emmanuel ever since. By quoting Isaiah in reference to Jesus Matthew does just that. Nothing in Isaiah says "they will exclusively call him Emmanuel" or 'they will say "Oi, Emmanual, do you want another sandwich?"' or "The name they will write on his birth certificate is Emmanuel" or even "scripture will record him being called Emmanel".

 

[ebia]

The scripture says "call his name Emmanuel" not he shall be Emmanuel or his title shall be Emmanuel, you're using excuses. I consider your explanation as adding to scripture.

If you are going to take an excessively literal approach to (the English translation) of Isaiah's prophesies you are going to have a very interesting time indeed.

But lets play the game - your translation says "they shall call his name Emmanuel", not they shall call him Emmanuel, or they shall name him Emmanuel, but they shall name his name Emmanuel. What does it mean to give a name to a name rather than a person?

 

[BeforeTheFoundation]

But lets play the game - your translation says "they shall call his name Emmanuel", not they shall call him Emmanuel, or they shall name him Emmanuel, but they shall name his name Emmanuel. What does it mean to give a name to a name rather than a person?

ahhh, precisely what I have been trying to point out. Unfortunately, I tend to be too long winded to actually communicate my points sometimes.

 

[precepts]

Where's the logic? Can I get some facts/references. Emmanuel is a title because ebia and BTF says so. Wow! Dig deeper.

 

[cyberlizard]

let me now add my opinion.

if Isaiah is not talking about Jesus when discussing Immanu'el, then who is it talking about?

Most interpret this passage to be speaking of Hezekiah (in the first instance)(at least if your Jewish), but he was never called Immanu'el either.

So you tell us who you think it is speaking about.


Steve

 

[SamanthaB]

You said that you are here to enlighten, not to argue. So enlighten us. What do you think that all this means? That Mary gave Him the wrong name? That he's not the Messiah?
Either way I think this arguement is so much splitting hairs. Isaiah prophisied that his name would be called Immanuel, and he very literally was "God with Us" no matter what his name is.