In The Beginning.

[thaumaturgy]

HEY! I resent that!

Agnoticism for me has been a nice transitional ground while I shift from theist to atheist. I suppose you could call me a weak atheist in that I don't believe there to be sufficient evidence to believe in a god; I would contrast that with some atheists who believe absence of evidence to be evidence of absence.

I was only joking here. I am a weak atheist myself, not because my atheism is somehow weak but rather I don't believe anyone can logically defend a universal negtive. For me there is no reason to reject the null, so I put the p-value at very very close to 1.0 but that doesn't mean that I have set it at exactly 1.0000...0.

I think strong atheism is a logically intenable position. I don't, however, feel that p=0.5, which is what I assume agnosticism really is (in the popular vernacular).

Besides, I like complaining about agnostics like the Peoples Front of Judea complained about the Judean Peoples' Front in "Life of Brian" (one of the best scenes of all time!)

"Splitters"!

 

[FoeHammer]

"Common" sense is often ridiculous. And this is exemplified in your OP.

How is my OP lacking common sense?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_fluctuation

How about you explain what this means in relation to my OP?

FoeHammer.

 

[Taure]

What it means is that it is proven that sometimes energy simply appears in a region of space for no reason whatsoever.

If this act of Quantum Fluctuation shows that sometimes something can come out of nothing, then there is nothing to say that the universe itself did not come out of nothing as the result of a huge quantum fluctuation.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I would like for someone to explain to me how something can come from nothing for no reason and without purpose i.e. the ''singularity''. Come on atheists what is your alternative to ''god'' having done it?

FoeHammer.

I find it ironic that you cannot comprehend an inanimate process creating itself (remember, time did not exist, so causality as we know it did not exist), yet you are fully willing to accept a concious and omnipotent diety to create it! Anyone sense the hippocracy?

And for the record, autogenesis (self-creation) has been observed in things such as Quantum Foam and the Casimir effect.

 

[flatworm]

I would like for someone to explain to me how something can come from nothing for no reason and without purpose i.e. the ''singularity''. Come on atheists what is your alternative to ''god'' having done it?

FoeHammer.

You seem to be failing to apply the same logic to your God as you do to other explanations.

Even setting aside the fact that uncaused phenomena are known to exist in our universe today, if time did not exist before the Big Bang, then there was no "before" and no need for a cause. The universe could simply be self-existing. Equivalently time and space could extend infinitely into the past, again obviating the need for an initial cause. Now, here's the meat-and-potatoes part you've been ignoring: It is logically impossible to object to the above possibilities without objecting to a self-existing God.


If God can exist with no cause, then we can just say the same about the universe and cut out the unnecessary metaphysical baggage. If it cannot exist without a cause, then neither can God, and it's turtles all the way down.

 

[FoeHammer]

What it means is that it is proven that sometimes energy simply appears in a region of space for no reason whatsoever.

Are you sure that ''sometimes energy simply appears in a region of space for no reason whatsoever''? Or is it simply that the reason isn't known?
Besides where did the space come from?

If this act of Quantum Fluctuation shows that sometimes something can come out of nothing, then there is nothing to say that the universe itself did not come out of nothing as the result of a huge quantum fluctuation.

With no space, time, energy or matter there will be no quantum anything.

FoeHammer.

 

[AdmiralBell]

Are you sure that ''sometimes energy simply appears in a region of space for no reason whatsoever''? Or is it simply that the reason isn't known?
Besides where did the space come from?
With no space, time, energy or matter there will be no quantum anything.

FoeHammer.

Energy appears for no reason, this has been proven under quantum theory as well as in experimant.

 

[FishFace]

Not at all, if time and space existed before the big bang then my question would be,
where did they come from?

And the answer, obviously, would be "I don't know." That you have the desire for an answer does not mean that you can insert whatever it was you wanted the answer to be.

This is both, unsatisfactory.....

The war in Iraq is, in my opinion, unsatisfactory, but nonetheless it exists.
The fact that you don't like something is no basis whatsoever for not believing in it.

..... and unscientific... Unless science has evidence that something did, or can, come from nothing... Does it?

Well, quantum theory suggests that things do come from nothing, but that's a cheap get-out, in my opinion.
The fact that we don't know whether things can from nothing cannot cause us to believe that the universe had to have a cause. If we knew that nothing comes from nothing, then yes, we would have to say that there was a cause (although not necessarily god) but we don't. So, once again, the answer is "I don't know."

How can a belief contradict what science doesn't know?

I explained this right in the bit that you quoted, here it is again:

That doesn't preclude any theist from saying "God caused the Big Bang," but, in my opinion, you are then holding a belief contradictory to science. Not because science claims "there is no god," but rather that science claims, "we shouldn't believe things without evidence."

 

[Chalnoth]

If time, space and matter did not exist before the ''big bang (expansion)'' of the ''singularity'' then where did it come from and when, where and how did that singularity exist?

As far as we know, it didn't. The positive detection of cosmic inflation ensures that if there ever was any singularity, it is hidden from us. In other words, current observational evidence doesn't indicate that there had to be a beginning to the universe.

 

[Taure]

With no space, time, energy or matter there will be no quantum anything.

Have you ever experienced or observed a spaceless, timeless and energyless environment?

No?

Didn't think so.

So it is quite possible that there was "Quantum anything".

 

[FoeHammer]

You seem to be failing to apply the same logic to your God as you do to other explanations.

Even setting aside the fact that uncaused phenomena are known to exist in our universe today, if time did not exist before the Big Bang, then there was no "before" and no need for a cause. The universe could simply be self-existing. Equivalently time and space could extend infinitely into the past, again obviating the need for an initial cause. Now, here's the meat-and-potatoes part you've been ignoring: It is logically impossible to object to the above possibilities without objecting to a self-existing God.

If God can exist with no cause, then we can just say the same about the universe and cut out the unnecessary metaphysical baggage. If it cannot exist without a cause, then neither can God, and it's turtles all the way down.

Absolutely not, my God (and yours too whether you believe it or not) is not limited by our understanding, logic or imagination... we are.

FoeHammer.

 

[AdmiralBell]

Absolutely not, my God (and yours too whether you believe it or not) is not limited by our understanding, logic or imagination... we are.

FoeHammer.

So God does not have to be proven by logic, reason, or science?

 

[FoeHammer]

So God does not have to be proven by logic, reason, or science?

An omnipotent, omniscient God?
No.
Why should He?

FoeHammer.

 

[flatworm]

Absolutely not, my God (and yours too whether you believe it or not) is not limited by our understanding, logic or imagination... we are.

FoeHammer.

...Thereby placing belief in God on par with the ravings of madmen. Since you have explicitly rejected logic, there is absolutely no reason to take your ramblings seriously any longer, and any attempt at rational discourse is clearly futile.

I'll leave it to the believers on the board to take issue with your blanket rejection of apologetics itself. For the purpose of discussing the existence of God, you are functionally insane. Have fun with that.

 

[plindboe]

An omnipotent, omniscient God?
No.
Why should He?

FoeHammer.

How would you be able to tell a false God belief from a true God belief?

Peter

 

[FoeHammer]

Energy appears for no reason, this has been proven under quantum theory as well as in experimant.

LOL. be serious, it appears for reasons as yet unknown. As I have said without time, space, energy or matter there will be no quantum anything.

FoeHammer

 

[FoeHammer]

And the answer, obviously, would be "I don't know." That you have the desire for an answer does not mean that you can insert whatever it was you wanted the answer to be.

The war in Iraq is, in my opinion, unsatisfactory, but nonetheless it exists.
The fact that you don't like something is no basis whatsoever for not believing in it.

Well, quantum theory suggests that things do come from nothing, but that's a cheap get-out, in my opinion.
The fact that we don't know whether things can from nothing cannot cause us to believe that the universe had to have a cause. If we knew that nothing comes from nothing, then yes, we would have to say that there was a cause (although not necessarily god) but we don't. So, once again, the answer is "I don't know."

I will state it here and now, nothing comes from nothing, if, in the future, science should prove me wrong (don't hold your breath) feel free to ridicule me all you like.

I explained this right in the bit that you quoted, here it is again:

That doesn't preclude any theist from saying "God caused the Big Bang," but, in my opinion, you are then holding a belief contradictory to science. Not because science claims "there is no god," but rather that science claims, "we shouldn't believe things without evidence."

There is a universe full of evidence that God exists.

FoeHammer.

 

[FoeHammer]

As far as we know, it didn't. The positive detection of cosmic inflation ensures that if there ever was any singularity, it is hidden from us. In other words, current observational evidence doesn't indicate that there had to be a beginning to the universe.

So the universe has always existed?

FoeHammer.

 

[FoeHammer]

Have you ever experienced or observed a spaceless, timeless and energyless environment?

No?

Didn't think so.

So it is quite possible that there was "Quantum anything".

Are you saying that one or more of these existed prior to the ''big bang''?
If so, how do you know?

FoeHammer.

 

[CACTUSJACKmankin]

I will state it here and now, nothing comes from nothing, if, in the future, science should prove me wrong (don't hold your breath) feel free to ridicule me all you like.

So then life had to have a cause, since it can't come from nothing. Could that cause be a chemical one? Abiogenesis perhaps?