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In opposition of the old calendar ( Please no hate)

buzuxi02

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Because we do not have an eucharistic worldview anywhere. Saint Paul says it is natural that women wear headscarves, not that it is "traditional".
This is not why headscarves became extinct among Greek Orthodox women. When the calendar was changed it was viewed as a custom of the Ottomon era throwbacks. The media who took the side of the Venezelists (wanted to integrate with the west) incited violence against royalists who tended to be more traditional and supported the old calendar for liturgical use. Women wearing headscarves were attacked (still happens to this day as its viewed as a throwback old calendarist practise, something the secular politicians and media poisoned the minds). Finally the well was poisoned and headscarves were dispensed with as not being a practise of the modernist western culture they were seeking to instill.
 
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Not David

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Why would it be insane? Every religion on earth EXCEPT For western christianity does just that. The Jews have their own calendar, as do the Chinese as do the Copts as do the Iranians.
For example should the Church change the great indiction from Sept 1 to Jan1 and in Asia change it to coincide with the Chinese New year spring festivals?
Dont get me wrong the Church of Greece does just this. The feast of the protection of the Mother of God was transferred to Oct 28 to coincide with the secular WW2 National holiday of Oxi.
The state transferred Greek Independance Day from April 5 to March 25th to coincide with the feast of the Anunciation etc....But there are now many secular non-Orthodox Greeks that want to seperate these holidays. So in the name of the new calendar someday Greeks will be having national parades and festivals during holy week.

This concept of organizing ones life based on the business calendar is a strawman argument especially in light that all these countries are secular and do not take into account liturgical practises and whichever calendar you use will have conflicts of interest. The old calendar though has less conflicts of interest.
Yes, I don't know why some want to give up traditions because "we are in America", "free world", etc. Muslims keep their small traditions regardless of the location.
 
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InnerPhyre

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The Jewish calendar was the Christian calendar. Christianity adapted and adopted the secular Julian calendar. That calendar was shown to be deeply flawed and a more accurate one was created. There were old calendarists in the early church who wanted to celebrate pascha according to the Jewish calendar and they adapted so everyone could be on the same page. We’ve adapted to better calendars before. I don’t see why we shouldn’t do it again. If the Lord waits long enough to return, the Julian calendar will eventually lose all meaning and we will be at the beach on Christmas and freezing during our Paschal processions.
 
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buzuxi02

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The Jewish calendar was the Christian calendar. Christianity adapted and adopted the secular Julian calendar. That calendar was shown to be deeply flawed and a more accurate one was created. There were old calendarists in the early church who wanted to celebrate pascha according to the Jewish calendar and they adapted so everyone could be on the same page. We’ve adapted to better calendars before. I don’t see why we shouldn’t do it again. If the Lord waits long enough to return, the Julian calendar will eventually lose all meaning and we will be at the beach on Christmas and freezing during our Paschal processions.
The Church adopted the Julian and has yet to adopt any other calendar using canonical norms. That should settle the entire debate right there.
As far as Christmas on the beach and Pascha in the cold, this is what Australians already do. Also this secular business calendar is not accurate. It was developed by astronomers who thought the sun revolved around the earth and then they placed New Years on January 1st completely ignoring centuries of custom which placed it in either September or beginning of Spring.
But the biggest flaw is the spiritual rot introduced by this business calendar into the life of the church.
 
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AMM

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It was developed by astronomers who thought the sun revolved around the earth and then they placed New Years on January 1st completely ignoring centuries of custom which placed it in either September or beginning of Spring.
Were the ancient romans Heliocentrists?

And that’s not entirely accurate either - the western church always celebrated the ecclesiastical new year at the start of Advent, which is neither September (Byzantium), Spring (?), February (Asian Lunar), or January (secular western)
 
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buzuxi02

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Were the ancient romans Heliocentrists?

And that’s not entirely accurate either - the western church always celebrated the ecclesiastical new year at the start of Advent, which is neither September (Byzantium), Spring (?), February (Asian Lunar), or January (secular western)
I believe most of ancient society were earthcentrists. The papal calendar was devised and implemented in the midst of the whole Copernicus controversy.
I know the Brits at one time up to 200 years or so ago celebrated New Years on March 25th the Anunciation. The Eastern half of the empire adopted the Egyptian custom based on the end of the annual flooding of the Nile. This annual event replenished the soil and allowed farmers to plant crops. And just like today it coincided with the end of summer.

It's also from my experience, ( that is those who are on the new calendar but prefer to switch back for a myriad of ecclesial reasons) that it is supporters of the new calendar that defend it with everything. I see how they shut down argument by saying how it was unfortunate, BUT..... But what??? But, but, but, we in the west get a federal holiday off on dec 25. But, but, but, it's not a dogma.. Then why are you making it into a dogma by defending it so passionately??? If you dont mind one way or another then surely you wont mind going back to the old calendar.

Fact is it was uncanonically implemented....Full Stop. It has led to the secularization of the feast days... Full stop. There is absolutely nothing to discuss but to immediately rid ourselves from this albatross around our necks.
 
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nicholas123

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This is not why headscarves became extinct among Greek Orthodox women. When the calendar was changed it was viewed as a custom of the Ottomon era throwbacks. The media who took the side of the Venezelists (wanted to integrate with the west) incited violence against royalists who tended to be more traditional and supported the old calendar for liturgical use. Women wearing headscarves were attacked (still happens to this day as its viewed as a throwback old calendarist practise, something the secular politicians and media poisoned the minds). Finally the well was poisoned and headscarves were dispensed with as not being a practise of the modernist western culture they were seeking to instill.
Still, even though you might be right in your purely political analysis worthy of the highest secular circles, it supposes that those who acted did not from spiritual sickness. Your worldview stems from the same sickness, that of a political worldview, why fight fire with fire? Even if you won, you'd lose your spirit to such a fight. Water alone puts out the fires of heresy.
I am not saying you have a bad heart, but that you have a bad mind.
 
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buzuxi02

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Still, even though you might be right in your purely political analysis worthy of the highest secular circles, it supposes that those who acted did not from spiritual sickness. Your worldview stems from the same sickness, that of a political worldview, why fight fire with fire? Even if you won, you'd lose your spirit to such a fight. Water alone puts out the fires of heresy.
I am not saying you have a bad heart, but that you have a bad mind.
Your post is exactly what I encounter. Basically It was an unfortunate event and It's not a dogma for us.... But let's use character assassination to anyone who opposes it.
 
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nicholas123

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Your post is exactly what I have encountered. It was an unfortunate event It's not a dogma for us.... But let's use character assassination to anyone who opposes it
It was not an unfortunate event, don't put words in my mouth. I believe the christian faith is an absolute faith, by it I mean it ought to permeate all levels of civil society - not substitute it.
 
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rusmeister

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I think the best thing all of us could do is acknowledge that the side we don’t agree with has a point, even if we think it the less important point.

As for me, I think those that favor maintaining the old calendar have good points. The points may be local - Greece and wrongful association of headscarves and the old calendar with the Ottoman Empire, but in those localities, they are serious concerns.

And if we, the faithful (or at least pretending to be the faithful), can’t come to agreement, how can we expect our bishops to?
 
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Euodius

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That calendar was shown to be deeply flawed and a more accurate one was created.

This reminds of a Roman Catholic who justified the change of the fasting requirement before communion down to a single hour because of the "new and scientific understanding of the digestive system." The idea being that the fast before receiving the Eucharist was merely about preventing the mixture of the profane and sacred in the digestive track. This, of course, is an absurdity. It is a fall of understanding from the invisible to the visible.

In the same way, it is absurdity to justify the new calendar because of supposed 'astronomical accuracy.' We must ask 'accuracy to what?' and is it that the Orthodox calendar is merely astronomical with only astronomical meaning? If it has more than material meaning, then what consideration is given to the invisible?
 
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E.C.

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I think we tend to freak out over the calendar issue more than necessary. St Ambrose of Milan once said "When in Rome, do as the Romans do". I take that attitude when it comes to new parishes. I'm mostly New Calendar, but if the nearest, healthy, canonical parish is one that's on the Old, than so what? Sometimes in life we end up in places where we don't get the luxury of being picky about what parish we attend or what calendar they follow. Nowhere in the Gospel does it say or allude to our salvation being determined by what calendar we use. Christ said to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, strength, etc; and to love our neighbor as ourselves. He also said to forgive 77x7; which is an Aramaic term for "infinite". He did not say to follow this calendar or that calendar nor did He say to condemn those that don't follow your calendar.

Elder Cleopa says that if there is a judgment, it will only be for those who changed the calendar, not those who have been on it since.
Absolutely true. Elder Cleopa's monastery almost went Old Calendarist when he was a monk. Until the Theotokos herself appeared to the abbot reminding him of his obedience to the bishop and the need to remain united with his Local Church and not to cause schism.

Yes, I don't know why some want to give up traditions because "we are in America", "free world", etc. Muslims keep their small traditions regardless of the location.
The difference is that Islam is evil at its core. It is a cancer. It does not mean peace like they say. With how the word Islam works with Arabic grammar it is more like "peace via subjugation". Muslims have never truly abandoned the view that they are Muslim first, ethnicity second, locality third. They will always see themselves as being a completely separate entity separate from the rest of the world. That is a large part of why most of the Islamic World does not recognize the State of Israel: they still see that area as being "Muslim Land". Some even still see Spain as being "Muslim Land".

We Orthodox on the other hand, see ourselves as in the world, but not of the world. We are the hospital for the soul. We are here to heal and save souls. We are not here to conquer like Islam does.

I think the best thing all of us could do is acknowledge that the side we don’t agree with has a point, even if we think it the less important point.

As for me, I think those that favor maintaining the old calendar have good points. The points may be local - Greece and wrongful association of headscarves and the old calendar with the Ottoman Empire, but in those localities, they are serious concerns.
I bolded that part for emphasis because you said it better than I could.

There are practical matters to consider as well. For example at the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem you have us, the Roman Catholics and the Armenian Orthodox all celebrating three different dates for Christmas. Roman Catholics on December 25, Eastern Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem on January 7, and the Armenian Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem on January 19 (other Armenians on January 6). I believe there is a similar setup for Pascha throughout the Holy Land. Either way, until the other Churches come back home to Orthodoxy, it isn't practical to have more than one of the Churches celebrate such major feasts on the same day in the same place; unless there is an agreement on how to do it; like when Orthodox Pascha and Western Easter fall on the same day.
 
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JohnTh

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Absolutely true. Elder Cleopa's monastery almost went Old Calendarist when he was a monk. Until the Theotokos herself appeared to the abbot reminding him of his obedience to the bishop and the need to remain united with his Local Church and not to cause schism.
This is the biggest problem with the calendar: the schism.

However in the episode you mention there were the Holy Three Hierarchs and not the Theotokos.
 
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E.C.

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This is the biggest problem with the calendar: the schism.

However in the episode you mention there were the Holy Three Hierarchs and not the Theotokos.
You're right!

It's been a few years since I read the book. Thank you.
 
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