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In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things charity.

Xeno.of.athens

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Some say, "In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things charity.", but do they mean it?
Tell me what the essentials are, please. Without that knowledge how can one make productive use of this adage?
Say what is non-essential so we can both be charitable about those things.
  • Is it essential or nonessential for me to worship in a building without paintings, stained glass, and statues?
  • Is it essential for me to believe that baptism is regenerative or is it essential for me to think it is a symbol of my public commitment to Christ?
  • Is it essential for me to deny that the holy eucharist is truly the body and blood of Jesus Christ?
  • Must I believe that the bread and wine are merely a memorial of Christ's death?
  • Is it essential for me to have sixty-six canonical books in my bible or may I have seventy-three?
  • Must I believe that faith alone will save me, apart from any goodness in works, prayer, or anything else including the sacraments?
  • Must I believe that once I am given eternal life through faith alone that I can never lose it no matter how horrendous my life may become?
  • Must I keep the seventh day as holy?
  • May I ignore all ten of the ten commandments?
  • Is my bible "the Word of God" mentioned in John chapter one?
  • May I go to any church I please and be assured I shall be taught the essentials?
 
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Bob Crowley

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It is going to depend on what we mean by "essentials".

Catholics like you and me are going to regard some elements as essentials whereas others are not, and vice versa.

My wife is Baptist for example, although we extend our charity to each other (er .. we have to ..), but I know of some Christians who would not be so charitable. She does visits with me involving Saint Vincent de Paul clients for example (which is a Catholic charity), but she very rarely attends mass. If she does it's usually because our timetable means it's more convenient.

I go to her church a bit more frequently but not that often. We don't discuss our denominational differences, and while we hold some things in common, there are important differences. What we would find is that if we did a survey of both our churches, pretty well every regular parishioner would definitely believe in Christ.

We can agree on being charitable to each other, but if we can't even agree on the essentials, then that slogan is wishful thinking.
 
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BobRyan

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Some say, "In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things charity.", but do they mean it?
Tell me what the essentials are, please. Without that knowledge how can one make productive use of this adage?
Say what is non-essential so we can both be charitable about those things.
  • Is it essential or nonessential for me to worship in a building without paintings, stained glass, and statues?
not needed -- a building is a nice-to-have
  • Is it essential for me to believe that baptism is regenerative or is it essential for me to think it is a symbol of my public commitment to Christ?
It is helpful to see that it is a symbol "believe and then be baptized" is the order given in scripture. But getting that wrong is not a sin.
  • Is it essential for me to deny that the holy eucharist is truly the body and blood of Jesus Christ?
it is a memorial according to 1 Cor 11

1 Cor 11:23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night when He was betrayed, took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same way He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.
  • Must I believe that the bread and wine are merely a memorial of Christ's death?
it is helpful
  • Is it essential for me to have sixty-six canonical books in my bible or may I have seventy-three?
everyone has 66 - some have more. Since the "more" in that case are all the writings of non-Christian Jews and the Jews never added them to the Hebrew bible (according to Josephus) - that is something to think about.
  • Must I believe that faith alone will save me, apart from any goodness in works, prayer, or anything else including the sacraments?

  • Must I believe that once I am given eternal life through faith alone that I can never lose it no matter how horrendous my life may

Matt 18 describes 'forgiveness revoked'
Rom 11 describes salvation revoked.
Heb 6:3-10 describes salvation revoked
  • Must I keep the seventh day as holy?
  • May I ignore all ten of the ten commandments?
Jude says to ignore one is to ignore them all.
  • Is my bible "the Word of God" mentioned in John chapter one?
It is the "Word of God " mentioned by Christ in Mark 7:7-13 but not the one in John 1:1
  • May I go to any church I please and be assured I shall be taught the essentials?
Most churches will tell you that the Bible is the Word of God, that Jesus is the Messiah and that Jesus died to save you. So that is good.
 
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Always in His Presence

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Can I add a few - Perhaps Augustine was thinking of these.
  • Must I believe that Jesus had no brothers or sisters even though they are named in Holy Scripture.
  • Must I believe that his mother can hear prayers and intercede on my behalf, even though it is contradicted by Holy Scripture
  • Must I believe that a man who is voted into his office is infallible in doctrine - but Holy Scripture is not.
  • Must I believe man's tradition more than Holy Scripture?
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Can I add a few - Perhaps Augustine was thinking of these.
  1. Must I believe that Jesus had no brothers or sisters even though they are named in Holy Scripture.
  2. Must I believe that his mother can hear prayers and intercede on my behalf, even though it is contradicted by Holy Scripture
  3. Must I believe that a man who is voted into his office is infallible in doctrine - but Holy Scripture is not.
  4. Must I believe man's tradition more than Holy Scripture?
1 yes.
2 yes, but it is wholly consistent with holy scripture.
3 yes, but the man is not infallible, and the holy scriptures are infallible.
4 no, holy scripture has primacy holy tradition provides a steadying hand to quell run-away imaginative interpretations.
 
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jas3

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Is it essential for me to believe that baptism is regenerative or is it essential for me to think it is a symbol of my public commitment to Christ?
This is an interesting one because some Protestants do reject baptismal regeneration, but I would say that baptismal regeneration is an essential belief; "repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" is pretty straightforward. And we have in the Creed: "I confess one baptism for the remission of sins."
 
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BobRyan

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This is an interesting one because some Protestants do reject baptismal regeneration, but I would say that baptismal regeneration is an essential belief; "repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" is pretty straightforward. And we have in the Creed: "I confess one baptism for the remission of sins."
I don't find baptismal regeneration in the Bible in places like Matt 28
19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to follow all that I commanded you; and behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

First they are taught the Gospel -- become born again believers -- choose to follow in obedience in the step of baptism. IT is not an unsaved person that chooses to believe and follow in obedience in the step of baptism, it is a born again Christian that chooses that.

Very often in the act of baptism the person is asked if they accept the Gospel - they say "I do" and they are baptized. But they did not get into the water by accident -- they are there because they already accepted.

btw - I am not arguing for disunity - just the the correctness of doctrine.
 
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seeking.IAM

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For me, "essential," breaks down to the Creed. Those who believe it, I embrace as sisters and brothers in Christ. Those who do not may be fine folks, but they are something else, and I am not of them.
 
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jas3

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I don't find baptismal regeneration in the Bible in places like Matt 28
19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to follow all that I commanded you; and behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

First they are taught the Gospel -- become born again believers -- choose to follow in obedience in the step of baptism.
"Baptizing" and "teaching" are participles in that verse, describing what is involved in the command "make disciples," not some separate process. Probably the best argument for credobaptism is the conversion of Cornelius and his household (Acts 10), where upon Peter saying, "whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remission of sins," the Holy Spirit falls on the gentiles, and then they're baptized. But that's a unique occurrence to show that gentiles are to be brought into the faith, namely in that they can be baptized.

But then later in Acts, we see converts who presumably believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, but they don't have the Holy Spirit. It's only after they're baptized with the baptism of Jesus that they receive the Spirit.

There's also the matter of the Nicene Creed, which says, echoing Acts 2:38, that baptism is for the remission of sins. Similarly, the earlier Christian writings we have like Justin Martyr's First Apology describe baptism as being regenerative. The understanding of the Scripture and Apostolic teaching on baptism by the Christians who spoke the language of the New Testament was that baptism, by God's grace working through it, cleanses sins.
 
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RandyPNW

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Some say, "In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things charity.", but do they mean it?
Tell me what the essentials are, please. Without that knowledge how can one make productive use of this adage?
Say what is non-essential so we can both be charitable about those things.
  • Is it essential or nonessential for me to worship in a building without paintings, stained glass, and statues?
  • Is it essential for me to believe that baptism is regenerative or is it essential for me to think it is a symbol of my public commitment to Christ?
  • Is it essential for me to deny that the holy eucharist is truly the body and blood of Jesus Christ?
  • Must I believe that the bread and wine are merely a memorial of Christ's death?
  • Is it essential for me to have sixty-six canonical books in my bible or may I have seventy-three?
  • Must I believe that faith alone will save me, apart from any goodness in works, prayer, or anything else including the sacraments?
  • Must I believe that once I am given eternal life through faith alone that I can never lose it no matter how horrendous my life may become?
  • Must I keep the seventh day as holy?
  • May I ignore all ten of the ten commandments?
  • Is my bible "the Word of God" mentioned in John chapter one?
  • May I go to any church I please and be assured I shall be taught the essentials?
A million dollar question: What are the "essentials?"

The early Church Councils determined what is "essential" for orthodox doctrine concerning the Trinity, Salvation, and other rudimentary apostolic truths. During the Catholic-Protestant controversy, Catholics determined that various Church traditions had to be joined to the volume of orthodox beliefs while Protestants tried to establish orthodoxy based on the Bible alone.

It becomes clear that Salvation comes only by the Way, and that the "Way" is determined by its reality and a message that properly conveys that reality. So there are fundamental truths by which we both encounter God and maintain a proper relationship to Him in holiness and in our works.

But it is equally clear that "orthodoxy" has therefore been argued over for the entire history of the Church in some way or other. And this likely is due to the fact that our knowledge is imperfect, even as Christians, and we must allow for flaws in our understanding as we seek to establish proper doctrine and proper practice.

So there has to be an allowance for disagreement, temporarily, until we can come to a unity of the knowledge of Christ. There will be a sense that unity is more than a unity of knowledge or doctrine, but more, a right spirit in taking what is essential and then tolerating the process as we approach the end goal.
 
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bling

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Some say, "In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things charity.", but do they mean it?
Tell me what the essentials are, please. Without that knowledge how can one make productive use of this adage?
Say what is non-essential so we can both be charitable about those things.
  • Is it essential or nonessential for me to worship in a building without paintings, stained glass, and statues?
  • Is it essential for me to believe that baptism is regenerative or is it essential for me to think it is a symbol of my public commitment to Christ?
  • Is it essential for me to deny that the holy eucharist is truly the body and blood of Jesus Christ?
  • Must I believe that the bread and wine are merely a memorial of Christ's death?
  • Is it essential for me to have sixty-six canonical books in my bible or may I have seventy-three?
  • Must I believe that faith alone will save me, apart from any goodness in works, prayer, or anything else including the sacraments?
  • Must I believe that once I am given eternal life through faith alone that I can never lose it no matter how horrendous my life may become?
  • Must I keep the seventh day as holy?
  • May I ignore all ten of the ten commandments?
  • Is my bible "the Word of God" mentioned in John chapter one?
  • May I go to any church I please and be assured I shall be taught the essentials?
This is like Peter asking Christ: "Is seven times enough times to forgive my brother?
Are you not asking: "How far can I go"?
Would it be better to ask: "How good can I get"?
Be one with God and you will know.
 
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RileyG

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For me, "essential," breaks down to the Creed. Those who believe it, I embrace as sisters and brothers in Christ. Those who do not may be fine folks, but they are something else, and I am not of them.
I agree.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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For me, "essential," breaks down to the Creed. Those who believe it, I embrace as sisters and brothers in Christ. Those who do not may be fine folks, but they are something else, and I am not of them.
An answer like that is very Catholic :)
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Some say, "In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things charity.", but do they mean it?
Tell me what the essentials are, please. Without that knowledge how can one make productive use of this adage?
Say what is non-essential so we can both be charitable about those things.
  • Is it essential or nonessential for me to worship in a building without paintings, stained glass, and statues?
  • Is it essential for me to believe that baptism is regenerative or is it essential for me to think it is a symbol of my public commitment to Christ?
  • Is it essential for me to deny that the holy eucharist is truly the body and blood of Jesus Christ?
  • Must I believe that the bread and wine are merely a memorial of Christ's death?
  • Is it essential for me to have sixty-six canonical books in my bible or may I have seventy-three?
  • Must I believe that faith alone will save me, apart from any goodness in works, prayer, or anything else including the sacraments?
  • Must I believe that once I am given eternal life through faith alone that I can never lose it no matter how horrendous my life may become?
  • Must I keep the seventh day as holy?
  • May I ignore all ten of the ten commandments?
  • Is my bible "the Word of God" mentioned in John chapter one?
  • May I go to any church I please and be assured I shall be taught the essentials?

For me, establishing what is "essential" in the Christian faith is a matter of extracting what was essential to the earliest Christians themselves. Whatever those essentials were, I don't think I'm obligated to believe "more" than that.

And that's why I'm typically so charitable when speaking with other Trinitarian Christians.
 
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BobRyan

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"Baptizing" and "teaching" are participles in that verse, describing what is involved in the command "make disciples," not some separate process. Probably the best argument for credobaptism is the conversion of Cornelius and his household (Acts 10), where upon Peter saying, "whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remission of sins," the Holy Spirit falls on the gentiles, and then they're baptized. But that's a unique occurrence to show that gentiles are to be brought into the faith, namely in that they can be baptized
(Acts 10) First the hear and accept the Gospel then they are baptized just as we see in Acts 2.

There is no mention at all of dragging unconverted Jews and gentiles in to the baptismal waters.
.

But then later in Acts, we see converts who presumably believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, but they don't have the Holy Spirit. It's only after they're baptized with the baptism of Jesus that they receive the Spirit.
But they were already born again believers -- accepting Christ as the promised Messiah just as did John the baptizer.
There's also the matter of the Nicene Creed, which says, echoing Acts 2:38, that baptism is for the remission of sins.
ok -- I am not going into proof-by-creed at this point. So far I am just sticking with "what does the Bible say"
Similarly, the earlier Christian writings we have like Justin Martyr's First Apology describe baptism as being regenerative. The understanding of the Scripture and Apostolic teaching on baptism by the Christians who spoke the language of the New Testament was that baptism, by God's grace working through it, cleanses sins.
The history of how/when various practices became accepted once the first century Bible writers died is an interesting discussion.
 
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jas3

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There is no mention at all of dragging unconverted Jews and gentiles in to the baptismal waters.
I'm not saying they would, but I think we have different ideas of what it means to make a disciple of someone. It's more than just getting someone to agree that Jesus is the Messiah.
But they were already born again believers -- accepting Christ as the promised Messiah just as did John the baptizer.
In the case of Cornelius and his household, as I said, it was a unique occurrence because the point was to show Peter and those who were with him, who presumably thought that baptism was reserved for Jews, that Gentiles could receive the Holy Spirit too. Later in Acts (chapter 19) we see that hearing and accepting the Gospel by itself doesn't make one born again when Paul finds the men who have received John's baptism and believe that Jesus is the Messiah, but due to their being baptized into John's baptism instead of Jesus' baptism, they haven't received the Holy Spirit.
I am not going into proof-by-creed at this point. So far I am just sticking with "what does the Bible say"
My concern with that approach is that a conversation that confines itself to the Bible is never going to get to the point of defining what makes a doctrine essential. I've had extensive debates online about baptismal grace and they all tend to run through the several examples of baptism we see in Acts, as well as the description of baptism as salvific in 1 Peter 3:21, before coming to an impasse ("I just don't read those verses that way").

It would pose a major problem for Christianity if the Nicene Creed stopped being the baseline for Christian belief (and even if you personally don't consider it to be that baseline, the reason Christianity is Trinitarian instead of Arian today is because the Christians who came before us did consider it to be the baseline). If the articles about baptism or the four marks of the Church are optional, then presumably the other articles are optional too.
 
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okay

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For me, "essential," breaks down to the Creed. Those who believe it, I embrace as sisters and brothers in Christ. Those who do not may be fine folks, but they are something else, and I am not of them.
Bingo!

And for me, either the Nicene or Apostle's will do.

I am glad there is such a diverse range of expressions of the Christian faith, because people come from all kinds of cultures and traditions, with different experiences/trauma/brokenness, with brains wired different ways, personality types, educations, etc. Some versions of the faith will work for me, but some will not. And as my faith has evolved on this journey, which flavors of the faith I fit in has also changed. I suspect the same is true of many folks.

Along those lines, I really like the book A Flexible Faith by Bonnie Kristian, which basically takes the Apostle's Creed as the non-negotiable dogma, then explores the range of beliefs among Christians for a number of topics. Examples include atonement theory, views of scripture, baptism, communion, roles of women in the church, what happens at the end of the world, hell, etc. I thought it was useful to read, and hope I can convince my daughters to take a look at it. In the preface she writes her motivation for writing the book; here is a portion

"Without even realizing it, we can become convinced our own tradition is the one Christian alternative to nonbelief."

" I don't want to see Christians becoming nones because they've been falsely told there's just one way to follow Jesus. That's why I think there's a lot of value to introducing Christians to our siblings and even distant cousins in the faith, particularly if that's what it takes for some to remain in the family. If there's a version of Christianity someone can accept, why would we present them only with a version that they have to reject?"
[I added the bold-face above]
 
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The Liturgist

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@Xeno.of.athens My dear friend, I am numbering the items on your list, so that I can remark on what is essential, unessential, or indeed where the opposite is essential: Finally at the end i give my opinion on what can be regarded as subject to liberty under this supposedly Augustinian quote.


  1. Is it essential or nonessential for me to worship in a building without paintings, stained glass, and statues?
  2. Is it essential for me to believe that baptism is regenerative or is it essential for me to think it is a symbol of my public commitment to Christ?
  3. Is it essential for me to deny that the holy eucharist is truly the body and blood of Jesus Christ?
  4. Must I believe that the bread and wine are merely a memorial of Christ's death?
  5. Is it essential for me to have sixty-six canonical books in my bible or may I have seventy-three?
  6. Must I believe that faith alone will save me, apart from any goodness in works, prayer, or anything else including the sacraments?
  7. Must I believe that once I am given eternal life through faith alone that I can never lose it no matter how horrendous my life may become?
  8. Must I keep the seventh day as holy?
  9. May I ignore all ten of the ten commandments?
  10. Is my bible "the Word of God" mentioned in John chapter one?
  11. May I go to any church I please and be assured I shall be taught the essentials?
1. Not only is it nonessential, but actually worshipping in a church that is intentionally iconoclastic is spiritually harmful. We know from archaeology at Dura Europos and from the Old Testament itself that both Judaism and early Christianity had iconography, and we know the history of Iconoclasm from the late Byzantine Empire, where it was essentially adopted by superstitious generals and politicians who wished to pass the buck for their inability to defend Egypt and Syria from conquest by the Ummayid Conquest. Martin Luther did not revive it, but rather others in the Reformation brought it back after centuries of abeyance, and the result was the destruction of much of the priceless cultural heritage in Northern Europe (however the Counter-Reformation would cause even more because of the decision of the Council of Trent to remove most rood screens from churches in Europe in favor of an open view of the apse such as one found in a Franciscan or Dominican church, and these rood screens or chancel screens were literally the Western version of the Iconostasis, both being derived from the Templon, for example, at Hagia Sophia in Constantinople (Rood being an old word for Crucifix).

2. It is essential to be baptized as an infant, and the sacrament is a means of grace and is regenerative, although if one becomes confused about this during their adulthood, after having been previously baptized, well, I pray for the salvation of everyone and there is also even the issue of someone being in a fully orthodox church but having an incorrect understanding of the sacrament.

3. No, rather it is essential that you acknowledge they are the Body and Blood of our Lord, as per 1 Corinthians 11:27-32, which was deleted from the Lectionary of the Novus Ordo Missae on Maundy Thursday (at some point I’m going to write a friendly reply to your thread in Traditional Theology about the New Mass and some specific reasons why I think the TLM attracts people).

4. No, rather, you should believe as your church along with the Orthodox, the Roman Catholics, the Church of the East, the Lutherans and some other churches such as Old Catholics and Anglo Catholics teach, with minor variations, that the Gifts become the actual Body and Blood of our Lord during the Eucharist, for the same reasons as no. 3.

5. The Old Testament canon was never formally settled and the Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholics and Anglicans have slightly different numbers of books, and also there are differences between the contents of the Septuagint as included in Greek Orthodox Bibles and the contents of the Church Slavonic Old Testament, which is translated from the Septuagint; additionally there are the books in the Ethiopian canon. I think anything used by the Ethiopians can be regarded as being at least deuterocanonical and anything used in the Vulgate or the Orthodox versions of the Septuagint can be regarded as protocanon. Indeed I would argue, as have some Orthodox theologians, that if we were to evaluate the importance of books by how often they are quoted in the liturgy, that some “Deuterocanonical” or “Apocryphal” books are actually more important than some books from the 66 book Masoretic canon. Even the book of Numbers comes to mind as one that is perhaps eclipsed by Wisdom or Ecclesiasticus or Tobit or the Longer Versions of Daniel and Esther.

6. No
7. No
8. Keeping the Seventh Day holy requires remembrance of Christ reposing in a tomb for us on that day, which is why the Orthodox celebrate the Vesperal Divine Liturgy and baptize catechumens on Holy Saturday, and at other times in Lent and Pre Lent and also before Pentecost have Soul Saturdays, which are like requiem masses, not unlike All Souls Day in the Roman church, on those Saturdays, for the same reason. In the Byzantine Rite of the Eastern Orthodox church, and similar patterns exist in the Oriental Orthodox churches, there is a default theme to each day of the week, with Sunday commemorating the resurrection, Wednesdays and Fridays commemorate Christ's suffering and crucifixion, and then to quote the OCA website that summarized the other days more easily than I would have, “Monday's theme is the “bodiless powers”the angels. Tuesday is dedicated to the memory of John the Baptist, Thursday to the apostles and Saint Nicholas, and Saturday to the Theotokos with the memory of the departed.” I believe that the Liturgy of the Roman Church historically met this criteria with the celebration of the Paschal Vigil Mass on Easter Even ( Holy Saturday ) with a very similar set of Old Testament lessons to those used by the Orthodox (12 minimum vs. 14 minimum in the Orthodox), but then Pope Pius XII made ill advised changes to the Paschal Triduum including moving the Paschal Vigil to later in the day, but insofar as it still starts at Vespers it still begins on Holy Saturday (Vespers or Vigils services have the effect of advancing the liturgical clock - in recognition of this at Russian, Ukrainian and Bulgarian and American Orthodox churches of Slavic heritage, on Holy Saturday the black paraments are taken down midway through the vesperal liturgy and replaced with Paschal white paraments, and the clergy will change their vestments from black to Paschal white. Some Russian churches, but usually not ROCOR (Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia) will then change vestments again in between Paschal Matins which traditionally begins at or shortly before midnight and the Paschal Divine Liturgy, from white to red. This is interesting because the reverse happens at the Feast of the Nativity, since red vestments are commonly worn in Advent.

9. Our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ, has summarized the commandments as “Love God with all your Heart, Mind and Soul” and “Love your neighbor as yourself” and we must confess our failures to do these two things and seek to repent of them. This life was given to us for repentence.

10. The Word of God is Jesus Christ, although the Bible is a verbal icon of Christ, revealing Him in the same way that He reveals the Father, but calling it the Word of the Word is problematic because it would deny the deity of Jesus Christ. One concern I have about the Western Church as a whole is inadequate references to the deity of Jesus Christ in prayer and worship; from the worship of many churches one might be led to believe that Christ was merely the Son of God but not God Himself, the false doctrine of Arianism. This is why I endorse the Orthodox approach that stresses the deity of Christ.

11. If the church teaches the orthodox faith of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, yes. The main freedom, the area where in non-essentials, liberty exists, is in terms of liturgical rite, just as thee are multiple liturgical rites in the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church (where there are multiple major variants of the Byzantine Rite such as the Russian Old Rite, the Sabaite-Studite Typikon, the Violakis Typikon, and also there are the Western Rite parishes), the Oriental Orthodox, which has four main liturgical rites (Syriac, Coptic, Armenian and Ethiopic) used in some cases by multiple churches (four autocephalous Armenian jurisdictions, which is a relic of the period when there were two Armenian kingdoms at the same time, that of Armenia proper and that of Cilicia, which were allies of the Byzantine Empire guarding it from invasion from Muslims in the East), two using the Syriac liturgy, the Syriac Orthodox and the Malankara Orthodox, and two using the Ethiopic liturgy, the Ethiopian Tewahedo Orrthodox Church and the Etirean Tewahedo Orthodox Church.

One nice thing about the Roman Catholic Church is that it celebrates in more of the historic liturgical rites than any other church, albeit unfortunately some of the liturgical rites were modified before Vatican II and later determinations of the Orthodoxy of their denominations, for example, the Syriac Orthodox and Chaldean and Syro Malabar Catholic liturgies, and others were modified both before and afterwards in deleterious ways (such as the Maronite liturgy), although some aspects of the post Vatican II change to the Maronite liturgy, such as cycling through the Eucharistic prayers, I like, the disuse of so many such as that of Peter (Sharar), a particularly loved anaphora, and also the obliteration of the beautiful flowery character of the prayers that characterized the West Syriac Rite as a unifying feature of Maronite, Syriac Orthodox and Syriac Catholic churches in the name of “simplification”, but the real problem has been the failure of most Maronite churches to preserve their traditional music. I would say the Maronite Rite in some respects has been more substantially adversely impacted than the Roman Rite or the Ambrosian RIte by the liturgical changes.
 
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(Acts 10) First the hear and accept the Gospel then they are baptized just as we see in Acts 2.

There is no mention at all of dragging unconverted Jews and gentiles in to the baptismal waters.

But they were already born again believers -- accepting Christ as the promised Messiah just as did John the baptizer.

ok -- I am not going into proof-by-creed at this point. So far I am just sticking with "what does the Bible say"
Anglo-Catholic. It's a thing. ;)

Indeed, our friend @Jipsah is also an Anglo Catholic, as is my very dear friend @Shane R
 
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