In defense of...

ContraMundum said:

I see Him in every day. I don't need religion to help me along. I have a relationship.

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I'm very happy for you. So do I. And it's not something I "Need", but something I "choose" because I believe they are His set times and I have been called to partake.

I see Him in every day. I don't need religion to help me along. I have a relationship.

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... he arrogantly sniffed...

Within that relationship is true religion.

JRSut1000 said:

The bible uses the word 'religion' and it's not in a bad way either. Religion can be bad, yes but it can also be pure and true. There are the religious scribes and pharisees, but then there is true religion as mentioned in James I think.

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Yes. James' description of "pure...undefiled" religion is one we don't always achieve but nevertheless should always strive for...

visionary said:

If you do not attend the meeting that your boss has called all to attend.. how long do you think the boss is going to think you are part of His company.

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It sounds like contra is saying non-Jews show up for other people's meetings when they were not required to attend and then they think everyone else should also show up for these meetings none of them were required to attend. That's just what I got out of it.

xDenax said:

It sounds like contra is saying non-Jews show up for other people's meetings when they were not required to attend and then they think everyone else should also show up for these meetings none of them were required to attend. That's just what I got out of it.

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all nations will attend in the millinium.. it is best to start practicing now.

The NC says to imitate Y H V H , Imitate Yeshua, if we are to imitate, we will follow in his footsteps, to all the commanded events.

I'm with Visionary on this one.

xDenax said:

It sounds like contra is saying non-Jews show up for other people's meetings when they were not required to attend and then they think everyone else should also show up for these meetings none of them were required to attend. That's just what I got out of it.

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That's pretty funny

xDenax said:

It sounds like contra is saying non-Jews show up for other people's meetings when they were not required to attend and then they think everyone else should also show up for these meetings none of them were required to attend. That's just what I got out of it.

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I didn't read it that way. I kind of saw a one new man with split personality.

ContraMundum said:

Reading through Rom. 9-11 and a dozen or so other passages one is left with the conclusion that the One New Man shares in the spiritual blessings of Israel, but the Gentile culture is not assimilated into or inferior to that of Israel. In fact it is very clear that the Mosaic Covenant is not the inheritance of the Gentiles- the Abrahamic one is.

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Concerning the Mosaic Covenant, even for those who were God Fearers/Gentiles, it is interesting to see how frequently the Mosaic Law noted that even foreigners who were not apart of Israel were not bound to the Mosaic Code in order to love the Lord.


In line with what was noted about Abraham and the Abrahamic Covenant (of which the Gentiles are apart of more so than the Mosaic One), I think it'd be noteworthy to add that there was time between Gen 10:25 and the apperance of Abraham in the next chapter----and that's stated because many assu,e that there were not others out there like Abraham who shared his faith. ...but the scriptures make clear that many others were seeking the Lord in the time of the Patriarchs


I'm reminded of how Job himself was a righteous man after God whom God highly favored---with many scholars saying that Job actually existed way before Abraham did. The Israelite author presents Job as a person living in Uz, which is outside the borders of Israel itself ---and His piety (Job 1:1) exemplifies the ideal in Israelite wisdom and He invokes the name of Yahweh (Job 1:21). But at the same time, his relationship to Abraham's offspring remains a mystery. The events of the book seem to be set in the times of the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The way Ezekiel 14:14 and Ezekiel 14:20 refer to Job along with two others apparently from ancient times enhances this impression....and so do the favorite names for the deity, God" (Hb. 'Eloah, the singular of 'Elohim) and "the Almighty" (Hb. Shadday), which seem more suited to the days before the Exodus 3:14 and Exodus 6:3 instances. The name Yahweh, the Lord, appear only in Job 1-2 and Job 38-42, with one lone exception in the middle of the book, 12:9).

Again, the prophet Ezekiel mentions Job along with Noah and Daniel, and this seems to imply that he took Job as a real perosn. This is also the implication of James 5:11. With what was noted by Ezekiel, its interesting to see Noah and Job listed together---as Noah and Job are well-known righteous men of the past (Genesis 6:9, Job 1:1)..and Noah existed before the era after the Flood. Its possible that Job either existed at the same time as Noah or came directly after Him. Just a thought, as it concerns those whom God chose to reveal His standards.

There were others who also followed the Lord as well outside of Abraham....as seen in how Melchizedek stood outside the covenant community and yet was a channel through whom God instructed his people. Genesis 14 is clear on how Melchizedek (king of righteousness) was a priest of the Most High....a priest-king linked to Jerusalem, seeing that "Salem" is possibly a shortened version of "Jerusalem" (Psalm 76:2) and is related to shalom, the Hebrew word for "peace" (Hebrews 7:2). ..



Jethro also comes to mind, though he's much farther removed from Abraham. As it concerns the view of the Midianites being "pagan" people ignorant of the ways of God, Jethro comes to mind since he stood outside of the Covenant Community...yet displayed uncanny knowledge of God. With Jethro, in Exodus 18, he was a priest of Midian (Exodus 3:1, Exodus 4:18)...and in light of the difficulty of both Egypt and the journey to Rephidim, Jethro's coming to meet Moses displays a relational posture of peace and encouragement, similar to when Aaron met Moses "at the mountain of God on his return from Midian (Exodus 4:27-31). Amazingly, after simply hearing about what the Lord had done on Israel's belalf, Jethro's words and actions represent a more faithful response than came from many of those who had experienced the events in Egypt (not to mention Egypt itself, as well as Amalek). For when he says, "Now I know that the Lord is greater than all gods" in verse 11, he echoes the purpose that the Lord said the plagues were to have for both Israel (Exodus 6:7) and Egypt (Exodus 7:5, Exodus 7:15). When Jethro brought burnt offerings and sacrifices and ate before God with Moses, Aaron and the elders, he prefigured the pattern of life that the Lord would reveal further at Mount Sinai (Deuteronomy 12:5-7). Moreover, Jethro was used by the Lord to help him find a faithful and workable way to have others bear the burden of judging the people and ensuring their well-being (Exodus 18:13-26).





Again, Melchizedek and Jethro, the father of Moses, stand outside the covenant community and yet are channels through whom God instructs his people. Much of the wisdom in Proverbs 22:17 to 24:34 bears close affinities to Egyptian wisdom documented from other sources. Isaiah declares that Cyrus of Persia is God's anointed who has been raised up to do God's will (Isa. 45:1).

ContraMundum said:

I have yet to meet a Christian that "defends Christmas" based on scripture or dogma. It's just a holiday. It's a chance to celebrate something important in history- to Christians a most important event. It's just a day set aside for that. I don't think any serious scholar thinks Dec 25th is Jesus' birthday (nor is sukkot seriously considered for that matter, though it preaches well to this crowd).

As for the paranoia and fear ascribed to the date Dec 25th or to having a tree with decorations etc- I wonder what people are afraid of. Demons in the tinsel? Almost every day of the year could be attached to some kind of pre-Christian celebration in some part of the planet. God redeems sin and sinners, so dates on the calendar is not too big a task for him, and it is up to us to make those times holy- "redeem the times". What's more, if you are that afraid of paganism- what on earth do you think of some of the Laws and holidays in the Torah? Piles of it is pre-dated by pagan Egypt and Canaan.

Further, all this talk of "The Lord's Feasts/festivals/times" is a bit of psycho-babble to me. They are holidays for ISREAL. God doesn't need days off to remember things, but He gave them to the Jewish people so we could remember what He did for us. They were not given as a law for Gentiles to follow. They come from the Lord, but they belong to the Jewish people. Can we please own them?

Why are there so many self-hating Gentiles?

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Many thanks for noting the reality of how many customs/practices that were found within the Mosaic Code were already present in the surrounding cultures that either existed alongside them or precedded them by centuries---for just because the Lord utilized many things already occurring doesn't mean that it is not of the Lord or cannot be used. Sometimes, it does seem that people are dominated more so by fear than by faith in the Lord. Even with the focus on Biblically appointed feasts, its interesting to consider since even the Festival of Lights (Hannakuh) and Purim (with Esther and the deliverance of the Jewish people from Haman) are things that were not appointed in the Law, yet they are still highlighted because of what they came to mean/symbolize. If that could happen from a Jewish perspective with things done that were not mandated in the Law/Torah, why should it be any different with holidays celebrated by Christians?

As you said best elsewhere:
There was actually an interesting article I remember coming across with my Messianic brothers/sisters over at "The Rosh Pina Project"--as seen here:

• Jewish Christmas
• Confessions of a Jewish Christmas
• Christmas controversy in Jerusalem
• The Laws of Christmas « The Rosh Pina Project
  
  
  
  

Additionally, one of the main Messianic Jewish ministries I've followed over the years is TNN with John McKee--and they had some excellent articles on the subject discussing the differing dynamics of holidays such as Christmas/Easter and how many Messianics actually go overboard when trying to prevent others who may be Gentile (or Jewish) from celebrating them to the glory of Yeshua. For more:

• Christmas Challenge, The (PDF)
• "Christmas is Pagan"!? How to Offend Family and Alienate Friends (PDF)
• Does the New Testament Annul the Biblical Appointments? (PDF)

Moreover, there have been excellent discussions elsewhere on the subject, such as in threads entitled Holidays: Christmas and Easter --but on the issue, I don't think its really something that's worth battling about. Working with the Messianic fellowship I go to, we celebrate all of the Jewish Feasts---and yet, there's also not a problem that the congregation has with others celebrating holidays such as Christmas or Easter since the meanings behind both are not automatically rooted within "pagan" orgins...even though there are aspects of it that people in the world can celebrate which indeed have paganistic aspects to them. The issue for us is whether or not one's heart is looking unto the Lord...

For if one wishes to celebrate the birth of Jesus during the time of December, they have the freedom to do so without harrassment..and the same goes for those wishing to celebrate Jewish feasts, apart of the heritage of believers and things that can aid in others seeing the Lord Jesus more clearly in many ways. Of course, it'd be more reasonable (IMHO) when examining history/scripture to consider that the Lord Himself was born sometime during the Festival of Sukkoth--and there are many good ministries that've tried to give great detail on the issue, such as here for example. Nonetheless, for those wishing to celebrate in December, its not the end of the world nor is it necessarily a reality that the Lord is offended.

To be clear, I'm not saying that others are good in getting caught up in many of the materialistic aspects that often come with Christmas when it comes to getting as many gifts as possible...nor am I saying its a good thing to go about celebrating Santa Clause is...for its sad, of course, to know how many have accepted the corruption of the real life person of St. Nicholas and made him into some kind of deity rivaling the Lord. Studying the character of the old saint has been a blessing, concerning how Saint Nicholas is the common name for Saint Nicholas of Myra, who lived in 4th century Byzantine Lycia (modern day Antalya, Turkey) and who had a reputation for secret gift-giving. This is as much as is generally known about him in the West...though others aren't aware of how he also had a reputation for working miracles. More can be found on the issue if going online/looking up an article by the name of "Life of St. Nicholas - St. Nicholas Eastern Orthodox Christian Church ( )

Seeing the historical character of St.Nicholas and how this believer operated is rather fascinating--and his example of giving is something that truly harmonizes with the concept of others giving to one another in light of who Christ is--but again, most don't go beyond that since they prefer the concept of "Santa"---and as if that's not enough, it seems the issue becomes compounded by the error of condemning all of those who may choose to celebrate Christmas from a Biblical aspect because of the view that its all "pagan" in nature/cannot be supported in any way--as if all were remotely with that mindset when the season was going down. Indeed, for some, it was all about the Glory of Christ...and even other Messianics not for the celebration of the Holiday have noted how there's grace for others to do so if they wish when context is remembered. .

yedida said:

What it really comes down to is that whether or not someone else chooses to put up a christmas tree or hide easter eggs is none of our business. It's between them and God. He will deal with it in His own manner and in His own time.
And if all we do is constantly point out how wrong we think it is, we will only be strengthening the barriers they have already built against the Lord's Holy Feasts. If we see Yeshua in their celebrations, and He is there, then we will open up the door wider for them to look into God's appointed times.
It took me several years after I turned to Messianic Judaism to finally get where I'm at now. I used to prickle just being near a lighted tree, but I've calmed down a great deal since then. The Lord has been showing me more and more each year, that how someone else celebrates His Son's birth, death, resurrection is not any my business as long as these things are a part of that person's life. Abba has it all under control.
I don't do the tree and lights thing but I can now sit at a friend's Christmas Eve table (before or after a midnight service) with their tree all lit up, presents waiting to be opened, Jingle Bells playing in the background and I don't shudder, I'm relaxed, joyful, hum along and join in the celebration of the fact that my Savior indeed was born.

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Right there with ya.

For me, if Christmas is going to be something to trip about, other holidays (i.e. Columbus Day, Martin Luther King Day, Labor Day, St.Patrick's Day, 4th of July, etc), have to come into the picture---and many Messianics celebrate those days and don't assume they're "pagan" simply because they may be extra-biblical (as opposed to anti-biblical like Halloween).

I used to trip whenever my parents would not celebrate Halloween and yet be cool with Christmas or Easter, though in hindsight I can understand their reasonings. For even if something is not stated directly in the scriptures for us to practice (as Paul noted in Romans 14:4-6/ Romans 14 and elsewhere), there are some things which are simply not constructive...and not all holidays are on the same level---and the folks over with TNN (and John McKee) had a good article from a Messianic perspective that I'd like to keep in mind before October 31st rolls around again..as seen here at A Messianic Perspective On Halloween (PDF)

yedida said:

I didn't read it that way. I kind of saw a one new man with split personality.

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huh?

Originally Posted by ContraMundum They come from the Lord, but they belong to the Jewish people. Can we please own them?

So, I see Contra, a Christian Jew, wanting to own the Lord's Feasts. That would make him of one portion of the new one man. One portion of that new man celebrating the Lord's Feasts. According to him, the other portion of this one new man, the gentile portion, should not be observing the Lord's Feasts. This makes a one new man with a split personality. Not truly ONE new man, but 2 new men. Doesn't compute.
I agree with CM, on the point that these Feasts were not given to the nations. But haven't the gentile believers come out of the nations? Have we not left the things of the nations behind for the things that are of the Lord? Would that exclude us of His appointed times? They are not appointed for all who call themselves by His name?

yedida said:

So, I see Contra, a Christian Jew, wanting to own the Lord's Feasts. That would make him of one portion of the new one man. One portion of that new man celebrating the Lord's Feasts. According to him, the other portion of this one new man, the gentile portion, should not be observing the Lord's Feasts.

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I think you misunderstood him entirely. But I'll let him come back and explain if that's true or not. I have no idea what you mean by "the gentile portion" of the one new man.

xDenax said:

I think you misunderstood him entirely. But I'll let him come back and explain if that's true or not. I have no idea what you mean by "the gentile portion" of the one new man.

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Dena,
I can't have become that convoluted just cos I'm fighting the flu! According to the Bible, there are two people groups, Israelites (Jews to us today) and gentiles (anyone who does not belong to the first group). Jew and Gentile are supposed to have come together into one new man. Have we? or is there still a distinction? Things that are okay for one but not for the other, or do we share in blessing and responsibility of one family of God's people?

xDenax said:

I think you misunderstood him entirely. But I'll let him come back and explain if that's true or not. I have no idea what you mean by "the gentile portion" of the one new man.

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And I wouldn't put it past me. I do misunderstand him sometimes!! But I love 'im anyway, and I hope he, me.