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In defence of Origen's belief in pre-existence

Bruce Leiter

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In reading your post, I come to the conclusion that I'm thankful that I didn't major in philosophy in college when I considered it. It sounds to me that your reliance on Origen's worldview is pure speculation. I will stick to the Scriptures alone for the truths God reveals through those inspired writers. John Calvin said in essence, "Go as far as the Bible goes; then, stop."
 
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Der Alte

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Everything in red is someone fantasizing. Here is the Jewish translation from the 1917 Jewish Publication Society and the English translation of the 225 BC LXX, Septuagint.
LXX Genesis 25:22
22 And the babes leaped within her; and she said, If it will be so with me, why is this to me? And she went to enquire of the Lord.
JPS Genesis 25:22
22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said: 'If it be so, wherefore do I live?' And she went to inquire of the LORD.
 
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TedT

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All I have done is report the actual word of scripture, that is, to crush one anther to pieces, that has been chosen to mean variously leaping, struggling and other innocuous words chosen to help us poor readers from accidentally thinking they were being murderous in the womb even though that is what is written.

BUT THE PART YOU IGNORED: GOD chose to tell Rebecca that they were fighting to be the first born so why do you scorn me for asking how that can be possible without their pre-conception existence? Gaslighting me as caught in a fantasy does not answer my question so I await your enlightenment, what do you think verse 22-23 mean?
 
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Der Alte

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I just quoted two Jewish translations which do not read as you want them to. Now here is the Jewish translation of the next verse it doesn't read as you want it to either.
JPS Genesis 25:23
23 And the LORD said unto her: Two nations are in thy womb, and two peoples shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
LXX Genesis 25:23
23 And the Lord said to her, There are two nations in thy womb, and two peoples shall be separated from thy belly, and one people shall excel the other, and the elder shall serve the younger.
Neither verse says anything about about the two sons having knowledge before birth. As I said fantasizing. But I'm sure you can find a "translation" somewhere which says what you want it to.




 
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TedT

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I just quoted two Jewish translations which do not read as you want them to. Now here is the Jewish translation of the next verse it doesn't read as you want it to either.
...which may only suggest that the rabbis themselves accepted the created on earth theory and eisegetically interpreted the word "to crush to pieces" to avoid such considerations since they did not have Adamic sin to fall back upon.

Christians who accept inherited sin have no problem saying that the Jews got this wrong as all are conceived in sin and could well sin in the womb SINCE they can learn wisdom in the womb: Ps 51:6 Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb; you taught me wisdom in that secret place.

It is all about interpretation and what implications one can live with for each interpretation...and no one claims the Jews are the only ones with a correct interpretation or we must revise our understanding of the Messiah by 100%.

Think of the mess they made with the Trinity, accepting echad as a unity in Gen 2:24 yet rejecting it as referring to a unity in Deut 6:4 most vehemently.

So I don't care much when the Rabbis interpret GOD's word different from the Spirit anymore...I even think they interpreted the meaning of Adam and Eve's nakedness wrong since it is the same word used in the very next verse to describe the cunning evil of the serpent.

IF the interpretation is as you and your rabbies claim, then how does that answer Rebecca's question: "Why are they fighting, even struggling, so fiercely I am in terrible pain?" "Oh they will become great nations and the elder will serve the younger." "Ummm, so what? Why are they struggling so fiercely?" There is no answer in this interpretation.

Interpreting GOD's words to Rebecca as a hint of their impossible knowledge to point to their pre-conception existence IS AN ANSWER and a very acceptable one too unless one has swallowed hook, leader and sinker the theory of our being created on earth.
 
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Der Alte

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Repeating your assumptions/presuppositions and ignoring everything which contradicts them does not make them true.
 
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TedT

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Repeating your assumptions/presuppositions and ignoring everything which contradicts them does not make them true.
Right back to you but...you misunderstand me.

I do not claim the contention is proven, that it must be true but that the words do in fact support this interpretation well enough that it can be seen or accepted as true. In this case I find it to be probably true because of the fact which you ignored to even try to answer - there is no answer otherwise.
 
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Der Alte

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No competent scholar, grammar or lexicon supports you version of the verses. Flipping through a list of possible meanings from who knows where and choosing one you like does not make it true.
Claiming that all the native Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars are wrong is absurd.
 
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TedT

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Blindly following preconceptions and prejudice is just as culpable, ask the pharisees who dissed our lord.
 
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Der Alte

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If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to seek any other sense. There is NOT one single verse which states that a fetus has knowledge and awareness in the womb Therefore this vs. is figurative.
Think of the mess they made with the Trinity, accepting
echad as a unity in Gen 2:24 yet rejecting it as referring to a unity in Deut 6:4 most vehemently.

Perhaps if/when you acquire a few semesters of Hebrew you might posses the requisite knowledge and expertise to make these kinds of determination. Having a Strong's does NOT make anyone an expert. I have already presented the best sources available, LXX and JPS you blew them off as if your unsupported opinion proves them wrong.
 
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TedT

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There is NOT one single verse which states that a fetus has knowledge and awareness in the womb Therefore this vs. is figurative.

Ps 51:6 Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb;
you taught me wisdom in that secret place.


Both faithfulness and wisdom depend upon knowledge and awareness...

Now I get to challenge you: quote one verse that makes our pre-conception existence impossible or which even hints it to be impossible.

Since you quoted the Jews, so will I: they are not so completely against our pce as you think...

Judaism
In rabbinic literature, the souls of all humanity are described as being created during the six days of creation (Book of Genesis). When each person is born, a preexisting soul is placed within the body. (See Tan., Pekude, 3). Tan., Pekude, 3 is not fully available to me except for this reference: The Legends of the Jews

Catholicism:

The Wisdom of Solomon 8:20 As a child, I was born to excellence and a noble soul fell to my lot; or rather, I myself was noble, and I entered into an unblemished body ......
OR

(JB) I was a boy of happy disposition. I had received a good soul as my lot, or that, being good, I had entered an undefiled body.

While Catholics accept the Wisdom of Solomon as cannon, they tend not to quote this verse very much since it contradicts their preconceptions.
 
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TedT

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You are right - I only had two years of Hebrew but that was enough to help me to decide that the rabbis were wrong in their interpretation of the Messiah and could be wrong in many other things.

The mere fact that the translators were reading their own language is NOT proof they had their spiritual interpretation of the language used in these verses on straight.

False equivalency perhaps...
 
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TedT

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Some of you never had to write a paper backed by credible sources and peer- reviewed research... and it absolutely shows.

Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;

Sometimes scholarly endeavours meet with little success. It depends upon the person studying, not their human ability or connections, sigh.

1 Corinthians 2:7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.

Anyone not sure if being too scholarly can interfere is true should google "Higher criticism of the Bible" and get a laugh!
 
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