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In defence of Origen's belief in pre-existence

Bruce Leiter

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In this thread i'd like to lay-out my arguments that, in my opinion, rule out the possibility of Origen being a mere heretic when he speaks about controversial subjects relating to theology. I will defend both his view of the possibility of previous worlds and the pre-existence of the soul as summarised within his book ''on the first principles''.

In his book, Origen, though he admits to it being speculation, confirms his belief in the possibility of previous created-worlds (that would go back infinitely). He appeals to the idea that God couldn't have been in-active before creation as this absence of action would trespass on His omnipotence and unchanging nature (i.e. what is active but simultaneously unchanging, must have always been active). God being unchanging is, as far as i'm aware, something that's accepted by most branches of Christianity to one degree or another, having historically been perceived as the unmoved mover that Himself can't be moved by anything else, being ontologically above all changes. Origen uses a similar approach when he argues for the existence of the soul. His main argument seems to come down to his rejection of creation out of nothing, as for nothing to have existed God necessarily must have been inactive. It logically follows that if the possibility of creatio-ex-nihilo is ruled out, both matter and spirit must have had a pre-existence. This combined with God being unchanging, and we being a direct witness of the fact that God by His nature created a world, leads us to the conclusion that either;

1. Endless created worlds exist at the same time.
2. A created world must have always existed (as Origen argues).

And that either;

1. The soul, having been uncreated, was with God before birth.
2. The soul, having been uncreated, was in a previous world before birth.
3. The soul, having been uncreated, was in a previous body before birth.

Having summarised his position i'd like to emphasise that i consider this to be a consistent approach to theology that argues from stable and logical first-principles, as this theory is based solely on induction from fundamentals that can be established through and deduced from direct perception (i.e. change can't be the foundation of change as this would cause an infinite regress which would exclude the possibility of a foundation for reality). The ultimate reason for why i belief that his teaching is possible, however, is not his reasoning alone, but predominantly the arguments against his theology, which i consider to be insufficient with regards to discrediting his speculations. With these i will end my defence, and will leave the final conclusion to the reader.

The principle argument against Origen's conception of God generally boils down to two main arguments. One is an appeal to the teachings of the apostolic fathers, that don't actively support the possibility of pre-existence, the other is an appeal to Scripture, either to validate church consensus as being guided by the Holy Spirit, or to use specific verses that (seem to) contradict Origen's teachings. I consider both these arguments to be insufficient to discredit his theology for the following reasons;

  1. The apostolic fathers aren't an infallible source, and many of their statements could be considered heretical.
  2. Though Scripture may be inspired by the Holy Spirit, our interpretation of it isn't a infallible source either.
This means that there is virtually nothing left to refute Origen's teachings in their totality, as even the supposed validity of the ecumenical councils is based on a specific interpretation of verses by clergy, who aren't infallible, with interpretations that aren't infallible either. That having said, the more we move away from direct perception with regards to our metaphysics, the more presuppositions we end up making about the reliability of our perception. Since we ourselves aren't infallible this is a position that i would argue to be philosophically unjustifiable. For this reason, a consistent reasoning based on first principles derived from broad generalisations of patterns in the external world (as discussed in the beginning by using the example of ''change''), will, in my opinion, lead to more sound theological conclusions. These generalisations being broad in nature would logically have a higher chance of encapsulating the truth than appealing to the consensus of small groups of fallible individuals, as a large fishing net has a higher chance of catching fish than a fishing rod. Being forced to conclude that Origen seems to have applied this technique to form his theological conclusions, i believe that, of all the early Christian writers, his worldview has the highest chance of being true.

In reading your post, I come to the conclusion that I'm thankful that I didn't major in philosophy in college when I considered it. It sounds to me that your reliance on Origen's worldview is pure speculation. I will stick to the Scriptures alone for the truths God reveals through those inspired writers. John Calvin said in essence, "Go as far as the Bible goes; then, stop."
 
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Der Alte

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How vague is the hint in the story of Jacob and Esau trying to murder each other in the womb because, as GOD told the mother, each wanted to be the first born because they did not know that HIS plans were for the elder to serve the younger against the Hebrew law of primogeniture.
Now, just how did these two infants in the womb come to know such things if they had just been created tabula rasa? A vague hint or a slap in the face?
And just in case you want to make a deal about them pushing each other around in the womb cannot have been attempted murder, the actual word in the Hebrew text is trying to crush each other to pieces, not much room for mere jostling for space.
Everything in red is someone fantasizing. Here is the Jewish translation from the 1917 Jewish Publication Society and the English translation of the 225 BC LXX, Septuagint.
LXX Genesis 25:22
22 And the babes leaped within her; and she said, If it will be so with me, why is this to me? And she went to enquire of the Lord.
JPS Genesis 25:22
22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said: 'If it be so, wherefore do I live?' And she went to inquire of the LORD.
 
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TedT

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Everything in red is someone fantasizing. Here is the Jewish translation from the 1917 Jewish Publication Society and the English translation of the 225 BC LXX, Septuagint.
LXX Genesis 25:22
22 And the babes leaped within her; and she said, If it will be so with me, why is this to me? And she went to enquire of the Lord.
JPS Genesis 25:22
22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said: 'If it be so, wherefore do I live?' And she went to inquire of the LORD.
All I have done is report the actual word of scripture, that is, to crush one anther to pieces, that has been chosen to mean variously leaping, struggling and other innocuous words chosen to help us poor readers from accidentally thinking they were being murderous in the womb even though that is what is written.

BUT THE PART YOU IGNORED: GOD chose to tell Rebecca that they were fighting to be the first born so why do you scorn me for asking how that can be possible without their pre-conception existence? Gaslighting me as caught in a fantasy does not answer my question so I await your enlightenment, what do you think verse 22-23 mean?
 
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Der Alte

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All I have done is report the actual word of scripture, that is, to crush one anther to pieces, that has been chosen to mean variously leaping, struggling and other innocuous words chosen to help us poor readers from accidentally thinking they were being murderous in the womb even though that is what is written.
BUT THE PART YOU IGNORED: GOD chose to tell Rebecca that they were fighting to be the first born so why do you scorn me for asking how that can be possible without their pre-conception existence? Gaslighting me as caught in a fantasy does not answer my question so I await your enlightenment, what do you think verse 22-23 mean?
I just quoted two Jewish translations which do not read as you want them to. Now here is the Jewish translation of the next verse it doesn't read as you want it to either.
JPS Genesis 25:23
23 And the LORD said unto her: Two nations are in thy womb, and two peoples shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
LXX Genesis 25:23
23 And the Lord said to her, There are two nations in thy womb, and two peoples shall be separated from thy belly, and one people shall excel the other, and the elder shall serve the younger.
Neither verse says anything about about the two sons having knowledge before birth. As I said fantasizing. But I'm sure you can find a "translation" somewhere which says what you want it to.




 
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TedT

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I just quoted two Jewish translations which do not read as you want them to. Now here is the Jewish translation of the next verse it doesn't read as you want it to either.
...which may only suggest that the rabbis themselves accepted the created on earth theory and eisegetically interpreted the word "to crush to pieces" to avoid such considerations since they did not have Adamic sin to fall back upon.

Christians who accept inherited sin have no problem saying that the Jews got this wrong as all are conceived in sin and could well sin in the womb SINCE they can learn wisdom in the womb: Ps 51:6 Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb; you taught me wisdom in that secret place.

It is all about interpretation and what implications one can live with for each interpretation...and no one claims the Jews are the only ones with a correct interpretation or we must revise our understanding of the Messiah by 100%.

Think of the mess they made with the Trinity, accepting echad as a unity in Gen 2:24 yet rejecting it as referring to a unity in Deut 6:4 most vehemently.

So I don't care much when the Rabbis interpret GOD's word different from the Spirit anymore...I even think they interpreted the meaning of Adam and Eve's nakedness wrong since it is the same word used in the very next verse to describe the cunning evil of the serpent.

IF the interpretation is as you and your rabbies claim, then how does that answer Rebecca's question: "Why are they fighting, even struggling, so fiercely I am in terrible pain?" "Oh they will become great nations and the elder will serve the younger." "Ummm, so what? Why are they struggling so fiercely?" There is no answer in this interpretation.

Interpreting GOD's words to Rebecca as a hint of their impossible knowledge to point to their pre-conception existence IS AN ANSWER and a very acceptable one too unless one has swallowed hook, leader and sinker the theory of our being created on earth.
 
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Der Alte

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...which may only suggest that the rabbis themselves accepted the created on earth theory and eisegetically interpreted the word "to crush to pieces" to avoid such considerations since they did not have Adamic sin to fall back upon.
Christians who accept inherited sin have no problem saying that the Jews got this wrong as all are conceived in sin and could well sin in the womb SINCE they can learn wisdom in the womb: Ps 51:6 Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb; you taught me wisdom in that secret place.
It is all about interpretation and what implications one can live with for each interpretation...and no one claims the Jews are the only ones with a correct interpretation or we must revise our understanding of the Messiah by 100%.
Think of the mess they made with the Trinity, accepting echad as a unity in Gen 2:24 yet rejecting it as referring to a unity in Deut 6:4 most vehemently.
So I don't care much when the Rabbis interpret GOD's word different from the Spirit anymore...I even think they interpreted the meaning of Adam and Eve's nakedness wrong since it is the same word used in the very next verse to describe the cunning evil of the serpent.
IF the interpretation is as you and your rabbies claim, then how does that answer Rebecca's question: "Why are they fighting, even struggling, so fiercely I am in terrible pain?" "Oh they will become great nations and the elder will serve the younger." "Ummm, so what? Why are they struggling so fiercely?" There is no answer in this interpretation.
Interpreting GOD's words to Rebecca as a hint of their impossible knowledge to point to their pre-conception existence IS AN ANSWER and a very acceptable one too unless one has swallowed hook, leader and sinker the theory of our being created on earth.
Repeating your assumptions/presuppositions and ignoring everything which contradicts them does not make them true.
 
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TedT

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Repeating your assumptions/presuppositions and ignoring everything which contradicts them does not make them true.
Right back to you but...you misunderstand me.

I do not claim the contention is proven, that it must be true but that the words do in fact support this interpretation well enough that it can be seen or accepted as true. In this case I find it to be probably true because of the fact which you ignored to even try to answer - there is no answer otherwise.
 
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Der Alte

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Right back to you but...you misunderstand me.
I do not claim the contention is proven, that it must be true but that the words do in fact support this interpretation well enough that it can be seen or accepted as true. In this case I find it to be probably true because of the fact which you ignored to even try to answer - there is no answer otherwise.
No competent scholar, grammar or lexicon supports you version of the verses. Flipping through a list of possible meanings from who knows where and choosing one you like does not make it true.
Claiming that all the native Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars are wrong is absurd.
 
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TedT

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No competent scholar, grammar or lexicon supports you version of the verses. Flipping through a list of possible meanings from who knows where and choosing one you like does not make it true.
Claiming that all the native Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars are wrong is absurd.

Blindly following preconceptions and prejudice is just as culpable, ask the pharisees who dissed our lord.
 
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Der Alte

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...
Christians who accept inherited sin have no problem saying that the Jews got this wrong as all are conceived in sin and could well sin in the womb SINCE they can learn wisdom in the womb: Ps 51:6 Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb; you taught me wisdom in that secret place.

If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to seek any other sense. There is NOT one single verse which states that a fetus has knowledge and awareness in the womb Therefore this vs. is figurative.
Think of the mess they made with the Trinity, accepting
echad as a unity in Gen 2:24 yet rejecting it as referring to a unity in Deut 6:4 most vehemently.

Perhaps if/when you acquire a few semesters of Hebrew you might posses the requisite knowledge and expertise to make these kinds of determination. Having a Strong's does NOT make anyone an expert. I have already presented the best sources available, LXX and JPS you blew them off as if your unsupported opinion proves them wrong.
 
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TedT

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There is NOT one single verse which states that a fetus has knowledge and awareness in the womb Therefore this vs. is figurative.

Ps 51:6 Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb;
you taught me wisdom in that secret place.


Both faithfulness and wisdom depend upon knowledge and awareness...

Now I get to challenge you: quote one verse that makes our pre-conception existence impossible or which even hints it to be impossible.

Since you quoted the Jews, so will I: they are not so completely against our pce as you think...

Judaism
In rabbinic literature, the souls of all humanity are described as being created during the six days of creation (Book of Genesis). When each person is born, a preexisting soul is placed within the body. (See Tan., Pekude, 3). Tan., Pekude, 3 is not fully available to me except for this reference: The Legends of the Jews

Catholicism:

The Wisdom of Solomon 8:20 As a child, I was born to excellence and a noble soul fell to my lot; or rather, I myself was noble, and I entered into an unblemished body ......
OR

(JB) I was a boy of happy disposition. I had received a good soul as my lot, or that, being good, I had entered an undefiled body.

While Catholics accept the Wisdom of Solomon as cannon, they tend not to quote this verse very much since it contradicts their preconceptions.
 
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TedT

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Perhaps if/when you acquire a few semesters of Hebrew you might posses the requisite knowledge and expertise to make these kinds of determination. Having a Strong's does NOT make anyone an expert. I have already presented the best sources available, LXX and JPS you blew them off as if your unsupported opinion proves them wrong.

You are right - I only had two years of Hebrew but that was enough to help me to decide that the rabbis were wrong in their interpretation of the Messiah and could be wrong in many other things.

The mere fact that the translators were reading their own language is NOT proof they had their spiritual interpretation of the language used in these verses on straight.

False equivalency perhaps...
 
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TedT

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Some of you never had to write a paper backed by credible sources and peer- reviewed research... and it absolutely shows.

Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;

Sometimes scholarly endeavours meet with little success. It depends upon the person studying, not their human ability or connections, sigh.

1 Corinthians 2:7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.

Anyone not sure if being too scholarly can interfere is true should google "Higher criticism of the Bible" and get a laugh!
 
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