In all sincerity, why doesn't God simply say, "Hi"?

DogmaHunter · Nov 24, 2017

bling said:
God could certainly make His presence known to the greatest skeptic, but would that help or hurt?

It would help, as it would provide a sufficient and rational basis for accepting this deity is real. As it stands now, the only way to accept such is on an insufficient and irrational basis, known as "faith".

Is God just trying to get you to acknowledge His existence?

Considering that it is criteria number 1 to be "saved" / enter heaven, I'm gonna go ahead and state that apparantly this God considers it rather important that people acknowledge his existance.

Would it be even a greater offence to God for you to know for certain He existed and yet refused His help?

Perhaps. But what of it? As it stands now, not acknowledging his existance is apparantly already enough to be condemned to an eternal infinite punishment. So I don't think it can get much worse then "eternal and infinite".

Man has an earthly objective and acknowledge God's existence is not the objective.

Really?
So, according to your theology, can a non-believer enter heaven?
Take me. I'm an atheist. Suppose I die this instance and christianity is true. Where will I end up, being the atheist that I am?

Faith helps man to fulfill man's objective (it is a humbling activity) while "knowledge" tends to puff up the person (be even more self reliant).

Irrational beliefs are man's objective?

You need to understand the objective since everything is driven by the objective.

All the people that supposedly witnessed Jesus's and other prophet's miracles didn't have to rely on faith. Why should we?

Hawkins · Nov 24, 2017

DogmaHunter said:
Wow!

So Moses, isn't saved?

You don't get the point do you? Where's your intelligence?

If God shows up to everyone equally, then no one can be saved in terms of the covenant. If God doesn't show up to anyone at all, then how can humans even know that there's a covenant?

The only way which works is for God to choose a small group of witnesses to record down their testimonies and for the rest to believe with faith. (Actually, at one time Israel as a whole was called to be His witness)

Your question only says that your intelligence is never reliable, continue to use it to make a judgment on the heavenly things, then the same day you eat of it the same day you shall surely, precisely as prophesied couple thousand years ago!

ananda · Nov 24, 2017

DogmaHunter said:
It would provide a rational basis for believing the deity exists.
Without such a "hi", your only option is to hold irrational beliefs, if you are going to believe this deity exists.

(ps: I'm assuming the "hi" in the OP is symbolical speech for having some kind of direct evidence that demonstrates this deity's existance)

Possibly, but my line of thinking was that a "hi" does not prove this deity's almightiness, omnipotence, omniscience, etc. i.e. it could be an impostor.

DogmaHunter · Nov 24, 2017

Hawkins said:
You don't get the point do you?

No, I don't.

How is that not a factual response to what you are saying?
You clearly said that one requires FAITH (as opposed to evidence based belief) in order to be saved. In the sense that if God reveals himself, that one no long requires faith.

But all the "eyewitnesses" to those supernatural miracles ... don't require "faith" - the existance of the supernatural, god himself, was demonstrated to them!

So from that, it logically follows that they can't be saved - since they have evidence and don't require faith.

Where's the flaw?

If God shows up to everyone equally, then no one can be saved in terms of the covenant. If God doesn't show up to anyone at all, then how can humans even know that there's a covenant?

You're not making any sense.

It is precisely the problem: humans can not KNOW that there's a covenant because they have to rely on FAITH. They have to "believe" based on very bad evidence: anecdotes that are the result of an age-old telephone game.

Except for those people that got to witness those incredible miracles.... who are somehow excluded from that rule that says "without faith, no saving".

The only way which works is for God to choose a small group of witnesses to record down their testimonies and for the rest to believe with faith. (Actually, at one time Israel as a whole was called to be His witness)

So an all-powerfull god can't make this work in any other way then to force people to hold irrational beliefs?

It's making lesse and less sense.

Your question only says that your intelligence is never reliable, continue to use it to make a judgment on the heavenly things, then the same day you eat of it the same day you shall surely, precisely as prophesied couple thousand years ago!

No clue what you are saying here.

DogmaHunter · Nov 24, 2017

ananda said:
Possibly, but my line of thinking was that a "hi" does not prove this deity's almightiness, omnipotence, omniscience, etc. i.e. it could be an impostor.

An all-powerfull, all-knowing god would know exactly what kind of "hi" he would have to engage in, in order to rule out the possibility of desception or doubt.

Having said that, the exact same "problem" exists today as well. Who's to say that Jesus was not really an "imposter" or "satan in disguise" to lead all of you astray?

Hawkins · Nov 24, 2017

DogmaHunter said:
It's making lesse and less sense.

So you don't even understand the basics. My first question is, if God doesn't contact us, how do you know that there's a God. I make it easier for you to understand the question.

If E.T. doesn't contact us, how do we know that E.T. exists?

The next question is, does E.T. need to contact each and everyone of us in order for us to know its existence?

The answer is NO. E.T. doesn't need to contact each and every humans for us to know its existence. It only needs to contact our media then the whole world will know. It is so because our media is acting as the witness for us to believe that E.T. exists. This is how things work.

ananda · Nov 24, 2017

DogmaHunter said:
An all-powerfull, all-knowing god would know exactly what kind of "hi" he would have to engage in, in order to rule out the possibility of desception or doubt.

Having said that, the exact same "problem" exists today as well. Who's to say that Jesus was not really an "imposter" or "satan in disguise" to lead all of you astray?

I have no idea ... it's one reason why I'm no longer Christian. It's impossible to verify.

ananda · Nov 24, 2017

Hawkins said:
E.T. doesn't need to contact each and every humans for us to know its existence. It only needs to contact our media then the whole world will know. It is so because our media is acting as the witness for us to believe that E.T. exists. This is how things work.

How can you verify that the media is speaking truth, in this case?

DogmaHunter · Nov 24, 2017

Hawkins said:
So you don't even understand the basics. My first question is, if God doesn't contact us, how do you know that there's a God.

Mohammed claimed to be contacted by a different God then you believe in.
So why aren't you a muslim?

I make it easier for you to understand the question.
If E.T. doesn't contact us, how do we know that E.T. exists?

There's actually hundreds, thousands, of people alive TODAY that you can go and talk to that will claim that they were not only contacted by ET, but also taken away on their spaceship.

The next question is, does E.T. need to contact each and everyone of us in order for us to know its existence?

You tell me. Do you "know" that ET contacted humans, based on the claims of those alien-abductees alive today, that you can actually go and talk to?

For reference, the humans that claimed contact with your God, have been dead for 2000 years.

So, do you "know" that ET came to earth and contacted humans?

The answer is NO. E.T. doesn't need to contact each and every humans for us to know its existence.

So you KNOW that ET abducted humans, still alive today that you can go and talk to and who are so sincere that they actually pass lie detector tests, just based on their claims of contact?

It only needs to contact our media then the whole world will know. It is so because our media is acting as the witness for us to believe that E.T. exists. This is how things work.

Here's an article in the media about a couple being abducted by aliens back in 1961. I can pull up hundreds more, if you like:

SHOCK CLAIM: Couple 'surrounded by ten aliens after being abducted onto UFO'

You could not have picked a better analogy, to make my case for me!

Hawkins · Nov 24, 2017

DogmaHunter said:
Mohammed claimed to be contacted by a different God then you believe in.
So why aren't you a muslim?

There's actually hundreds, thousands, of people alive TODAY that you can go and talk to that will claim that they were not only contacted by ET, but also taken away on their spaceship.

You tell me. Do you "know" that ET contacted humans, based on the claims of those alien-abductees alive today, that you can actually go and talk to?

For reference, the humans that claimed contact with your God, have been dead for 2000 years.

So, do you "know" that ET came to earth and contacted humans?

So you KNOW that ET abducted humans, still alive today that you can go and talk to and who are so sincere that they actually pass lie detector tests, just based on their claims of contact?

Here's an article in the media about a couple being abducted by aliens back in 1961. I can pull up hundreds more, if you like:

SHOCK CLAIM: Couple 'surrounded by ten aliens after being abducted onto UFO'

You could not have picked a better analogy, to make my case for me!

You mean if CNN seriously reported that E.T. visited earth, and you refuse to believe?

To me, you are quite clueless about how this reality works.

DogmaHunter · Nov 24, 2017

Hawkins said:
You mean if CNN seriously reported that E.T. visited earth, and you refuse to believe?

It would depend on their evidence. If it's just a claim, like the thousands of alien abductee claims out there (and the claims of religious contact of the supernatural), then off course I would not believe it. Why would I?

Do you simply believe any extra-ordinary claim made, just because the one who makes the claim also believes it?

If so, why aren't you a muslim?
After all, Allah contacted Mohammed some 1500 years ago.

So, do you believe the thousands of alien abductee claims of contact?

Why not?

Hawkins · Nov 24, 2017

DogmaHunter said:
It would depend on their evidence. If it's just a claim, like the thousands of alien abductee claims out there, then off course I would not believe it.

So, having said that, care to actually comment on the points made in the post?

So, why aren't you a muslim?
After all, Allah contacted Mohammed some 1500 years ago.

So, do you believe the thousands of alien abductee claims of contact?

Why not?

Gees. You examine each piece of news in order to believe. China has a president, do you need him to contact you for you to believe what the news say about him?

Like I said, you don't know how this reality works.

DogmaHunter · Nov 24, 2017

Hawkins said:
Gees. You examine each piece of news in order to believe.

No. Instead, how "believable" a claim is, is in direct proportion to how extra-ordinary it is.

If you tell me that you saw a movie with Jessica Alba last night, I wouldn't have a reason to doubt it.
Movies exist.
Jessica Alba is an actress that had done plenty of movies.
People watch movies.

I myself, have seen movies starring Jessica Alba.

Now, if you would go on to claim that 30 minutes after the start of the movie, Jessica Alba crawled out of the TV screen, made love to you and then crawled back into the TV screen to finish the movie.... That's where I will no longer believe you.

To say that aliens visited the planet is a very extra-ordinary claim. It's not something I can just accept at face value. It is also something YOU would not accept at face value. You would require MORE then just the claim to believe it as well. And please don't pretend otherwise.

China has a president, do you need him to contact you for you to believe what the news say about him?

China exists.
Countries have presidents.
Nothing extra-ordinary about that.

Like I said, you don't know how this reality works.

Uhu. It seems like your version of how reality works is "believe whatever people tell you".

Oncedeceived · Nov 24, 2017

UnI said:
I want to know God exists in the same way that I know my mother exists. God has revealed Himself in the past, yet He no longer appears. Why?

Knowing God is real would most certainly help the human condition. All religious wars and bickering over the 'true God' would instantaneously cease. Less people would burn in hell for eternity because not believing in God would be as delusional as not believing you are reading these exact words right at this moment.

I mean, I don't even have super all powerful gifts and yet you believe in me. How hard would it be for an omni-all God to make itself known?

He does.

I understand the concept of 'faith in things unknown' like one's faith in their ability to do the work at a new job. But screw faith, I rather know the Christian God is real. Afterall, kids have faith in Old Saint Nick who has the ability to bring them gifts each Christmas.

My point is knowing is better than believing - in the context of religion. After all, what a pitifully pathetic situation we'd both be in if it turns out the Muslims were right all along.

You have it there. What is belief without knowing. That is exactly where I began. I always wondered how people "knew". It is a mystery until God does reveal Himself. When He did, I knew and once you know you never doubt.

Imagine that, a Christian and a Pantheist burning in agony side-by-side for eternity simply for not choosing the 'correct' God. At least you 'believed' in something. Right!?

Forget that, I'd rather know.

God personally introducing Himself to me - or you - would be a great start to a potentially fantastic relationship.

Wouldn't you agree?

This is the problem, God reveals Himself to "you" or "me" or Dave or Joe and you can't know unless HE reveals Himself to you personally. You can't experience another's experience.

DogmaHunter · Nov 25, 2017

Oncedeceived said:
You have it there. What is belief without knowing. That is exactly where I began. I always wondered how people "knew". It is a mystery until God does reveal Himself. When He did, I knew and once you know you never doubt.

Christians "know" Jawhe exists.
Muslims "know" Allah exists.
Hindu's "know" Shiva exists.
Vikings "know" Odin exists.
Romans "know" Mars exists.
Greeks "know" Zeus exists.

You can't all be correct. But you can all be wrong.

This is the problem, God reveals Himself to "you" or "me" or Dave or Joe and you can't know unless HE reveals Himself to you personally. You can't experience another's experience.

Certainly. But what we observe is that people's religious "experiences" of contact with their particular deity of choice, are mutually exclusive.

This is a problem.

Tolworth John · Nov 25, 2017

DogmaHunter said:
Not a matter of obeying or listening.
It's a matter of having an actual rational basis for accepting this deity exists.

As it stands now, this God, if he exists, demands his subjects to have irrational beliefs "or else".

As it stands now, this God, if he exists, rewards gullibilty and punishes rationality.

A rational basis for believing that God exists.

Rather there is a need for a rational basis for believing that there is no God.

Can you give a rational explanation for why there is anything rather than nothing?

Can you give a rational explanation for Jesus?

The bible gives rational explanations for both, but you will not accept them.

xianghua · Nov 25, 2017

UnI said:
False equivalency. A watch is a mechanical (not alive) technology made by man while nature builds living organisms with a combination of physics, chemistry, and biology over the course of time.

true. but i talking now about a self replicating watch that made from organic components. so what you will conclude in such a speciel case?

bling · Nov 25, 2017

UnI said:
I want to know God exists in the same way that I know my mother exists. God has revealed Himself in the past, yet He no longer appears. Why?

Knowing God is real would most certainly help the human condition. All religious wars and bickering over the 'true God' would instantaneously cease. Less people would burn in hell for eternity because not believing in God would be as delusional as not believing you are reading these exact words right at this moment.

I mean, I don't even have super all powerful gifts and yet you believe in me. How hard would it be for an omni-all God to make itself known?

I understand the concept of 'faith in things unknown' like one's faith in their ability to do the work at a new job. But screw faith, I rather know the Christian God is real. Afterall, kids have faith in Old Saint Nick who has the ability to bring them gifts each Christmas.

My point is knowing is better than believing - in the context of religion. After all, what a pitifully pathetic situation we'd both be in if it turns out the Muslims were right all along.

Imagine that, a Christian and a Pantheist burning in agony side-by-side for eternity simply for not choosing the 'correct' God. At least you 'believed' in something. Right!?

Forget that, I'd rather know.

God personally introducing Himself to me - or you - would be a great start to a potentially fantastic relationship.

Wouldn't you agree?

Do you know for certain the person you think is your “mother” is really your mother?

My knowledge of God existence is greater than my assured believe in my own mother.

Know God is real does not save you and if you were to “know” God exists and were a poor example of a “believer” would that example helping others?

Israel after crossing the Red Sea would have had enough to “know” God exists, but were they a very poor example of a believer?

The Pharaoh and the Egyptians had plenty of reason to believe the Hebrew God existed, yet they fought to their death against God, so why would you think knowledge of God’s existence would bring forth peace?

The question is not with God’s ability to make Himself known to the skeptic, but what is best for those that are willing to accept God’s charity?

Faith is not the end objective, but the beginning requirement since it is a humbling activity with enough humility to allow the person to accept pure charity.

Knowing does not generate or require humility and can do just the opposite.

God/Christ living in and through others has allowed me to have personal contact with Deity and now Deity has made His Home inside of me.

brinny · Nov 25, 2017

In all sincerity, why doesn't God simply say, "Hi"?

UnI said:
It's been many moons since I've been here, but I'm back in part for nostalgic reasons and, in part, to maybe help others along the way as they have helped me. I'm still seeking truth wherever it may lie so all commentary is welcome!

To the point. If the Christian God is a personal, loving, all-powerful being who has - according to the Bible - created the universe with all its complexities, miracles, and wonders then surely this God understands and can communicate the simplicities of the English language. Yet, no one on Earth - aside from the Biblical perspective - has heard His voice?

Simply put, why can't God simply say, "Hi" to us?

Simply put, why can't God simply say, "Hi" to us?

Ummmmm i don't mean no harm, but this comes to mind, just from the title of this thread:

Just Who IS El Elyon, the Most High, holy, and One True living God?

"Bubbles" the clown?

Oncedeceived · Nov 25, 2017

DogmaHunter said:
Christians "know" Jawhe exists.

We know because we have had a personal experience with Him

Muslims "know" Allah exists.
Hindu's "know" Shiva exists.
Vikings "know" Odin exists.
Romans "know" Mars exists.
Greeks "know" Zeus exists.

Out of all of these there is only one that is considered knowable in some personal way and that is Allah of the Islamic faith. They do not receive communication from Allah directly or personally. They receive all communication by the Quran and believe that sometimes it happens in dreams.

You can't all be correct.

True.

But you can all be wrong.

Or we are right and all the rest are wrong. You can not know Allah, Shiva, Odin, Mars or Zeus exist because none of them communicate or reveal themselves personally to their followers.

Certainly. But what we observe is that people's religious "experiences" of contact with their particular deity of choice, are mutually exclusive.

This is a problem.

That is why it is a choice, why God allows you to determine that all are wrong.

In all sincerity, why doesn't God simply say, "Hi"?

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