In a non-denominational church how does the Pastor tithe?

[IisJustMe]

Actually just wanted to point out that He was speaking to the Jews in this case as well. So there is no implication that Christians are even remotely bound to the 10%.

My point was, first, that tithing is mentioned in the New Testament, despite the previous claim that it is not. In addition, the paragraph afterward that you didn't quote explained my reasoning that this verse is applicable to Christians as well.

It’s not leftovers but first fruits or regularly set giving and given of free will as there is need.

Of course it's not "leftovers." I said as much in the post.

 

[Psalms34]

My point was, first, that tithing is mentioned in the New Testament, despite the previous claim that it is not. In addition, the paragraph afterward that you didn't quote explained my reasoning that this verse is applicable to Christians as well.

I don't see tithing in 2 Cor 9. I don't even see specifically money mentioned.
As for Matthew 23, I recognize that to be addressing the Jews and not directly linked to 2 Cor 9 which is written to the Church. Care to expand on your reasoning for this? for tithing being for the Church?

Giving is applicable for the Church, yes, but not compulsory money tithing as was the matter for the Jews and the upkeep of the temple. There are even archaeological discoveries of tablets that recorded the gathering of tithes for temple repairs. I find it strange that the Church is to be a part of that system of temple upkeep by reason of compulsory tithing.

If you want to pay for a building, pay church staff, pay expenses for your missionaries, yes do give and thus share in the rewards, but it's not tithing. We don't even call it tithing, but offering, as we have offering boxes and such.

 

[JoNissi]

I even moved into the Lighthouse to get closer to thick of things regarding the life of the church .....

...I understand this is a serious post, and I'm not trying to make lite... but you are officially my new hero. The first christian to achieve 007 status.

 

[Frisbee]

JoNissi please don't elevate me to any status, there is only One who deserves that place and His name is Jesus!

Also. my time in the Lighthouse is coming to an end as well. There are a lot politics going in our church and in order for me to deal with the issues and the Pastor I can't be in a place where he can bring that up in the context of the talk we're going to have about church leadership. It's not chipped in stone, but it looks like I'll move in another informal church leader at the end of the month. Lord willing I'll be able to move back there someday, but right now it's actually soemthing that I have to put down until we can straighten these other matters out.

 

[drstevej]

Our church teaches grace giving that is not percentage driven. As a pastor I give by writing a check.

 

[Frisbee]

Our church teaches grace giving that is not percentage driven. As a pastor I give by writing a check.

A check to who? Isn't that paying yourself?

I'm serious with the question. I have no issue with giving generously, but I do have an issue with folks who tell others to do so and then they themselves are actually not giving as they told others to give, themselves. Giving to the Lord means giving to the Lord, not giving to yourself. I can see giving to toher people even, in fact I like that a lot! But if your income comes from tithes to your church, how can you tithe by giving to your church?

 

[drstevej]

My check goes to the church's general fund. And it is the same fund that pays salaries. It also supports the ministries and our missionaries through out the world. So it is just as logical to say it pays a missionary's salary as saying it pays my own.

Frankly, I could ask that my salary be reduced and not give and do better on taxes. But the principle of giving exceeds my desire to avoid taxes.

BTW, I have no idea who or how much anyone other than myself gives to our church. And we do not publish salaries. Our Personnel Committee uses the annual church workers compensation publications to evaluate our levels of compensation.

 

[Frisbee]

That all sounds very reasonable to me Pastor. Our church doesn't worl like that and is why I'm asking the questions that I'm asking here. But thanks for your candor!!!

 

[drstevej]

I do have a real problem when the pastor directs the finances. I am a strong believer in accountability. Your former pastor might be able to give you some counsel. I am not familiar with how Calvary Chapel churches function.

 

[Psalms34]

That all sounds very reasonable to me Pastor. Our church doesn't worl like that and is why I'm asking the questions that I'm asking here. But thanks for your candor!!!

You mean whether or not- and how much- he gives? I don’t think that is something regularly published sorta like being a Pharisee standing out on the street corner praying- to be seen? I’m sure it would be given account of in private if asked for good reason. Ultimately, that is between him and the Lord. I would use caution along this line of inquiry, that you not go in with a judgmental heart. I believe that such a thing was in part why Judas fell, he had other ideas of how money ought to be handled (among other things) such as what he would deem as waste like regarding the use of the oil given to Jesus.
Haven’t listened to the audio file yet, just downloaded it and will find time to skim through it within the next 24 hours (wasn’t mentioned any specific time points).

Anyway, you never know, you could just order a pizza one evening and discover your Pastor at the door with a Dominoes hat on
It happens, lots of them work during the week doing different things, some are even tradesmen. lol I've gone out on construction jobs with the Pastors and Elders from my previous CC fellowship.

 

[Frisbee]

It was around the 20 to 25 minute mark, sorry about that. Regarding the amounts of money, I wasn't talking about people publishing that. I'm talking about the church budget. What comes in, what goes out and what the current needs are. In all fairness I know that he has stuck his neck out and much of the current situation has roots in that. I'm looking for transparency not to beat anybody up, but because it's the biblical thing to do. The we, the folks of the church, should be taking care of the needs that we become aware of. In our church tithes don't even begin to cover the cost we are told. Most of the funds that make everything work comes from the school and child care center. We're a small and relatively poor church, but have a lot square footage. It's really hard to explain, you'd have to see it. If I started describing it you'd probably not get it because we have way more space than we use or need. The church was started to do outreach concerts, so everything that was built afterwards kind of revolved around making that work.

 

[dies-l]

Tithing is not mentioned in the New Testament. Christians are under the New testament, not the Old. Instead we are told to return as "we have been prospered" (1 Cor 16:1-2). Anyone who states tithing is obligatory is going beyond what the NT states. We are to give cheerfully, realising that if we "sow bountifully" we will "reap bountifully" (2 Cor 9:6-12).
That is it.
Refrus

I would argue that the NT standard goes well beyond obligatory tithing, not the other way around. For example, when Paul speaks of being a cheerful and generous giver (See 2 Cor. 9:6-8), he is talking to people who would have clearly understood the OT concept of tithing. For a person to be generous, in light of this standard, is not to simply give the minimum (i.e., the tithe) and stop there. Rather, generosity implies that one's giving goes above and beyond any established minimum. The idea of giving cheerfully implies that we need also to be mindful of our motivation for giving. We should not give just because we feel that we have to, but rather we should give generously because we want to fully participate with God in what He is doing. And, if we don't want to participate with what what God is doing on such a superficial level as our finances, we need to ask ourselves if we really want to follow Jesus.

When we look at the early church as described in the Acts, we don't see people that are nitpicking about whether or not they should tithe. Instead, we see people for whom tithing is not an issue in the slightest, because they were giving completely of themselves to one another, not only in their finances but in their time and love as well (See Acts 2:42-47). For these early Christians, it seems, the standard was much more than a measly 10% of their income. In this context, where the very fact that a person identified himself as a follower of Jesus subjected him to persecution and danger of execution, giving a tithe was nothing. These people were literally giving 100% and trusting completely in God.

But, modern Western Christians by and large do not have this same sense of sacrificial self-giving and community living, nor do we face the same level of persecution (or any real persecution for that matter). So, for us to take satisfaction in the fact that the NT does not demand a tithe (assuming that this is true) is somewhat misguided. Instead, we should strive to give far more than the 10% demanded by the OT; we should strive to give everything that we are and everything that we have to the Kingdom. But, as most of us (myself included) fall far short of this ideal, it strikes me as completely reasonable to continue to follow the OT standard as an absolute bare minimum of giving and unreasonable to do anything less.

After all, why would you trust God with your soul if you can't trust Him with a tenth of your income? And, why would you trust a church with your spiritual growth if you cannot trust the church with such a small portion of your finances?

 

[Frisbee]

After all, why would you trust God with your soul if you can't trust Him with a tenth of your income? And, why would you trust a church with your spiritual growth if you cannot trust the church with such a small portion of your finances?

I don't believe I've ever heard anyone question whether or not God can be trusted with money, the question is typically centered on the organization that gets it. For example, would you consider it to be a "tithe" if you gave 10% of your income to a televangelist? Maybe you would, but most folks would see that as flushing your money down the drain. The question then is a very valid one where it isn't the amount or the willingness of the person to give, but where it is going to.

How does one give to God? Does God only take checks? Cash? Pay Pal?

 

[dies-l]

I don't believe I've ever heard anyone question whether or not God can be trusted with money,the question is typically centered on the organization that gets it. For example, would you consider it to be a "tithe" if you gave 10% of your income to a televangelist? Maybe you would, but most folks would see that as flushing your money down the drain. The question then is a very valid one where it isn't the amount or the willingness of the person to give, but where it is going to.

Please look at both of my statements, and I think that you will see that I have addressed your concerns. Certainly, I do not believe that followers of Jesus should just give their money to anyone, and I think it is horrible that so many modern televangelists exploit well-meaning people in order to generate income. My argument all along has been that we need to exercise discernment. But, while it is important that we are careful about who we trust with our money, we should be all the more careful about who we trust with our spiritual growth. So, if a person honestly feels that the local church body that she has chosen to be a part of cannot be trusted with something as insignificant as a tithe, that person should ask herself why she feels she can trust that body with her spiritual growth.

Conversely, the point is that if you do trust your local church and you do believe that your church is participating in God's redemptive work, then as a follower of Christ you will want to support that not only with your finances, but with your prayers, your words, your time, and your actions.

How does one give to God? Does God only take checks? Cash? Pay Pal?

One can give to God in a number of ways. When we share what we have with one another out of love for God, we are giving to God. When we choose to spend time loving one another, we are giving to God. When we place our tithe in the offering plate, we are giving to God. When we offer financial support to those who are fighting poverty and injustice, we are giving to God. When we give our time to fight injustice and oppression, we are giving to God. Please, don't think that I am saying that money is the only way to give to God. Just the other day, I was speaking to a friend of mine encouraging him to consider whether he should quit one of his jobs in order to have more time to devote to caring for his wife and children. I believe that even a choice such as this and the sacrifice that ultimately goes along with it (less money for his family and less money to give to the church) is a gift to God.

 

[pastortimothy]

oops. I double posted. sorry.

 

[IisJustMe]

Genesis 14:17-20
Then after his return from the defeat of Chedorlaomer and the kings who were with him, the king of Sodom went out to meet him at the valley of Shaveh (that is, the King's Valley). And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; now he was a priest of God Most High. He blessed him and said, "Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth; and blessed by God Most High, Who has delivered your enemies into your hand." He gave him a tenth of all.

Here we see the purpose of the tithe, and it is important to remember that the writer of Hebrews called Jesus a " ... priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek." (Hebrews 5:6) Abram returned from conquering the enemies of Sodom and Gomorrah, after those same enemies had taken Lot and his family and possessions captive along with all those of the two cities. He give a tenth of everything recovered in his raids to this "high priest of God" because Melchizedek blessed him as a "possessor of heaven and earth." Melchizedek acknowledges -- and not as an inconsequence, asks Abram to acknowledge as well -- that the victory came through God alone. Abram reveals in his refusal to accept payment from the king that he honors no man, but only God.

In that Melchizedek called Abram a "possessor of heaven and earth," he identifies that status in us, through Christ. We too are possessors of heaven and earth because God has blessed us through the death and resurrection of Christ. This is our victory, as surely as Abram's defeat of Chedorlaomer, Tidal, Amraphel and Arioch was his victory. Both are accomplished because God gives the strength to overcome. Are we to do less than Abram? I think this settles the issue once and for all. The tithe is the minimum prescribed level of giving, the least we can do. As Dies has so well said, the standard given in the New Testament requires more of the faithful, not less, than was required of Abram.

 

[dies-l]

Please look at both of my statements, and I think that you will see that I have addressed your concerns. Certainly, I do not believe that followers of Jesus should just give their money to anyone, and I think it is horrible that so many modern televangelists exploit well-meaning people in order to generate income. My argument all along has been that we need to exercise discernment. But, while it is important that we are careful about who we trust with our money, we should be all the more careful about who we trust with our spiritual growth. So, if a person honestly feels that the local church body that she has chosen to be a part of cannot be trusted with something as insignificant as a tithe, that person should ask herself why she feels she can trust that body with her spiritual growth.

Conversely, the point is that if you do trust your local church and you do believe that your church is participating in God's redemptive work, then as a follower of Christ you will want to support that not only with your finances, but with your prayers, your words, your time, and your actions.

One can give to God in a number of ways. When we share what we have with one another out of love for God, we are giving to God. When we choose to spend time loving one another, we are giving to God. When we place our tithe in the offering plate, we are giving to God. When we offer financial support to those who are fighting poverty and injustice, we are giving to God. When we give our time to fight injustice and oppression, we are giving to God. Please, don't think that I am saying that money is the only way to give to God. Just the other day, I was speaking to a friend of mine encouraging him to consider whether he should quit one of his jobs in order to have more time to devote to caring for his wife and children. I believe that even a choice such as this and the sacrifice that ultimately goes along with it (less money for his family and less money to give to the church) is a gift to God.

For what it is worth, I would like to add a bit of personal testimony to this discussion. The past year has been one of most financially difficult years of my life. Except for a few months of temp work, I have been unemployed for about 12 months now. My wife and I both have racked up huge debts from before our marriage, and my wife's income would barely be enough to take care of one person, let alone two people with a huge debt load. During this time, we felt that God was leading us to stop our cycle of debt and to begin to make whatever efforts were possible to begin to pay back our debts. So, in short, using credit cards to pay our monthly expenses was not an option for us, and failing to pay minimum balances was certainly not an option. And, here, I have to admit that it was quite tempting to me to stop tithing so that we could use the money to pay back debt. For my wife, this was not an option, and I am grateful that I allowed her to take the lead in this.

Our decision about what we do with our money at times like these, I think reveals what we believe about God. When I considered not tithing as an option to deal with our financial struggles, I was essentially saying that I did not trust God to take care of our needs and that I did not believe Jesus when He said, "Seek first the Kingdom of God and all these things will be given to you." Fortunately for us, my wife did trust God, and I believe that we have both been made stronger for it.

First, we have gotten to see that God can accomplish with our finances what appears to be impossible on paper. I don't know how it is that we have not only been able to pay minimum balances, but we have been able to make fairly sizable payments towards our debt, all while taking care of our physical needs. All I can say is that this is something that has happened on God's power rather than our own.

Second, we have gotten to experience what it is to be a part of God's people. One of the reasons that we have been able to get by is because of the love of people that we go to church with. In small things, people shared what they had with us, knowing that we are struggling and knowing that we will cheerfully do the same for others when our times are better.

Thirs, and perhaps most importantly, we have learned to judge what is really important. We have had to make decisions about how to spend our money over the past several months. We have become aware of how much money we waste on things that give only momentary pleasure. In response, we have cut back on needless things like entertainment, convenience eating (i.e., fast food and dining out), and so forth. And, we have learned that these things, which we had previously taken for granted, have no impact whatsoever on our contentment or our happiness.

I am convinced that these blessings are a direct result of choosing to give to God more than we could comfortably give, and I am convinced that having experienced times like these, I have grown to better understand what it is to trust God and these lessons will lead us to greater generosity i the future.

 

[Frisbee]

That is a good argument IisJustMe, but it is still taking things from the Old Covenant and applying it to the New Covenant. I agree that we are required to give more now, but money is not what is lacking in the body Christ, servants are.

It goes back to an earlier discussion about what exactly the church is. I've argued before that it is not a denomination or a building, both of those are the constructs of man, albeit with good intentions most of the time. The body of Christ, the gathering of the called out ones, requires very little material resources. We don't have a Temple, a priesthood or professional clergy. Well, actually we do, but the point is that the body of Christ doesn't depend on any of those.

Jesus is the head of the church and no man or organization has the right or authority to add to the church that Jesus built. If we give money to help underwrite the costs of a building that the local gathering of called out ones meet, then fantastic! If the need can warrant a full-time shepard, then that's fine too. The rub is that when folks flip that around and require the building and full-time paid clergy to start the church, then we have it exactly backwards. Conversely I would love to see a church become a center for Christian life that is much more tangible to the needs of the flock. A place where we came together to eat, to live and love, and to truly minister to each other's needs eyeball to eyeball. I'd give everything I possibly could to that in particular.

So what is it that you propose that we are funding with a tenth of our income? If it is just the building and it's steward, I'm not on board with that. If it is to minister to the needs of the body of Christ, then I am all for that. There's a difference between the two, and giving to God in my humble opinion is about giving to God's people, not the church's person and building.

 

[Frisbee]

Dies3l that is what I'm talking about!!!

I just wrote that in it's basic form to IisJustMe, and there you have it...

Giving to God is God's people loving each other, helping each other and making it (the local area chruch) work! In your case wouldn't a job have been better than if they just pooled money and gave it to you? I've been there and I know exactly what you're talking about. In the end a Christian brother gave me a job, and that job led to me not just getting out of the pickle I was in, but also to grow in the Lord. It brought me to the church I am currently in and it taught me to love the people in the church, not the building.

 

[IisJustMe]

That is a good argument IisJustMe, but it is still taking things from the Old Covenant and applying it to the New Covenant.

There is no "old covenant." There is God's covenant with Israel, in which He makes specific promises that are for Israel alone. What is called the New Covenant is nothing more than plainly stated salvation through Christ, whereas the Old Testament concealed the salvation by grace alone through faith as coming through Jesus. The only think "new" is that Christ is the vehicle of salvation. Also, Abram predated the Law, and you appear to be confusing it with the Abrahamic, Mosaic, and Davidic Covenants.