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Importance of the Filioque

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by aChildOfMary, Mar 26, 2015.

  1. AXO

    AXO Latin and Hispano-Mozarabic Rite, Roman Catholic

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    Am I to infer from that statement that the Union of Brest separated from the dogma of the double procession? I do not see any contradiction with it.
     
  2. GoingByzantine

    GoingByzantine Seeking the Narrow Road Supporter

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  3. AXO

    AXO Latin and Hispano-Mozarabic Rite, Roman Catholic

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    Glossing over the indifferentism of the first sentence in your post, I assume you are referring to this part:
    Is that correct?
     
  4. GoingByzantine

    GoingByzantine Seeking the Narrow Road Supporter

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    The Union of Brest allows Ukrainians and Ruthenians the right to retain the Creed in the original Greek form. Why I bring the Union of Brest up is that it contradicts the statement of Pope Benedict XIV in the encyclical Allatae sun.

    Wherein he said:

    "The first question is whether the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son is a dogma of the Faith. This question has always been firmly answered that there is no room for doubting that this procession is a dogma of the Faith and that every true Catholic accepts and professes this."

    The Greek species of "from the father through the son" is also a valid form of the creed, expressed through the writings of the Greek fathers. Benedict XIV's statement infers that those who use "through the son" are not true Catholics. The Greek and Latin versions are both licit, and are complimentary, but Benedict XIV inferred that "and the son" is the only Catholic dogma, which is not the case.

    In the Catechism of the Catholic Church, we see that both forms are valid per paragraph 248.
     
  5. Peter the Roman

    Peter the Roman One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church - Roman

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    No, you are mistaken as you are reading into Pope Benedict XIV's words something he is not saying. Pope Benedict XIV was not saying that. He was simply affirming the dogmatic nature of the filioque, not the wording. Pope Benedict XIV knew very well of the decrees of the Council of Lyon II, Lateran IV and the Council of Florence all which affirm the equivalent formula of the "through the Son". He only seeks to explicitly state that the filioque is a dogma of the faith, nothing more. It's only natural that he expresses himself in western terms using the western formula of "from the father and the son" rather than "from the Father through the Son" since he was a westerner after all.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2015
  6. Tallguy88

    Tallguy88 We shall see the King when he comes! Supporter

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    "the indifferentism of the first sentence in your post"? Wow, that's an awfully judgmental thing to say about a fellow believer. Maybe you should consider the effect your words have on those who legitimately struggle with this issue.
     
  7. aChildOfMary

    aChildOfMary Guest

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    I can't say this being totally honest so I withdraw this statement that I made earlier.
    I do not profess the Filioque neither do I believe in it I'm afraid.
    What I don't do is to outright say it's an error, that I have not enough knowledge about it to do neither do I have any
    authority or anything, but as far as my own faith goes I profess the older version without it.

    I'll of course say it at Mass as GB pointed out that it's a time of unity and fellowship.

    I don't say it's wrong I just can't say that I believe in it without lying...
     
  8. aChildOfMary

    aChildOfMary Guest

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    Agreed.
    I guess we've both had our fair share of flirts with Orthodoxy in the past Tallguy?:p

    I even went to catechese at a Russian parish nearby, but decided to stay where I am.
    sometimes I can't help but to wonder Wether or not I made the right call back then...
     
  9. Tallguy88

    Tallguy88 We shall see the King when he comes! Supporter

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    I keep in touch with the local Orthodox parish, but have decided to stay Catholic for a number of reasons. Hopefully, one day I will live close enough to an EC parish to make that my spiritual home. In the meantime, I'll suck it up going to an RC parish.
     
  10. aChildOfMary

    aChildOfMary Guest

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    Agreed.
    if there was a western rite of Orthodoxy in Norway I could easily see myself commiting the switch, but to attend DL held mostly in Russian, Greek and Slavic every weekend and to have to travel 50 kilometers (as there are no Orthodox Church in my current town) to attend church is a huge barrier.
    Also I hold the Holy See to be the ground of Faith.

    If major changes in doctrine are becoming a reality under the papacy of Francis I may end up reconsider it.

    And yes, I agree that EC seems to be the optimal solution, to bad I don't have a single parish in the entire country :(
     
  11. gurneyhalleck1

    gurneyhalleck1 Reader

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    And some of us actually converted to Orthodoxy and found we were treated like crud, that you replace legalism and liturgical abuse with.....legalism, anti-western obsessions, President Putin is the new Cyrus of Persia temporal savior, America sucks, the closer you are to Russian the better, fasting that pushes you to the limit, bad clergy just like your old church you hoped to get away from, denial about history (aka "the Serbs never committed atrocities toward anyone!) and all sorts of ethnic pandering that gets bizarre.

    For every negative you give up in one church, you'll get a new negative to take its place...


     
  12. GoingByzantine

    GoingByzantine Seeking the Narrow Road Supporter

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    Few Churches are blood free, thats for sure. Maybe the Copts idk.
     
  13. AXO

    AXO Latin and Hispano-Mozarabic Rite, Roman Catholic

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    You are falling into the terrible fallacy of exclusion. In no way Benedict XIV says that a Catholic professing the procession of the Spirit from the Father through the Son (a Patre per Filium) is not a true Catholic. Peter the Roman, whom I give thanks, has already pointed it out to you.
     
  14. GoingByzantine

    GoingByzantine Seeking the Narrow Road Supporter

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    Then I am in error, and I apologize.

    I guess I worked from a negative bias since he said that the Latin Rite should be preferred above all other rites.
     
  15. aChildOfMary

    aChildOfMary Guest

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    Seing how history has treated the Eastern Catholic Churches no wonder easterners are a bit sceptical towards certain popes and winds flying through the Vatican.

    Pope Pius XI forcing eastern clergy to be celibate which resulted in lots of eastern parishes turning to the Orthodox Church (no wonder).
    This ignorant act remained active until Pope JP II lifted it in the nineteenths.

    Latinisation of the eastern rites are not only a total lack of respect, but a great shame.
    Uniformity as pope Francis calls it isn't necessary and shouldn't even be the ultimate goal.

    I'm totally with the Pope on this one.
    At this point he is much better than his predecessors.
     
  16. GoingByzantine

    GoingByzantine Seeking the Narrow Road Supporter

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    To my knowledge, every Pope since Pius XI has been very supporting of the East and its autonomy.

    Pope Pius XI wrote an encyclical on the events Chełm called Omnem Sollicitudinem, and he also authored a encyclical to the Armenian episcopacy titled Quartus Supra. I have not have a chance to read either, but I am guessing they would illuminate his views on the East.

    Pope Leo XIII who actually thought quite highly of Benedict XIV, wrote an encyclical entitled Orientalium Dignitas, this document was revolutionary, and it set the stage for more autonomy and protection for Eastern Catholics.
     
  17. Erose

    Erose Newbie

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    Well then you have nothing to worry about. Pope Francis isn't changing Doctrine. Maybe some practices and/or approach; but doctrine he isn't changing. He doesn't have the authority, and contrary to the hopes of progressive Catholics and the media, he truly knows that this is so.
     
  18. Erose

    Erose Newbie

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    This only occurred in areas within the Patriarchate of Rome. Having dioceses and eparchates within the same territories is really a fairly new concept. People thinking that everything would be perfect from the get go and their wouldn't be some figuring out along the way, doesn't know humanity.
     
  19. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    Depends on who you ask, honestly. I don't think any church is perfect in terms of its individual members (obviously), though I guess it does 'help' that the COC only knew peace from the authorities for about 140 years of its entire history (the time between the end of Maximinus II's rule in 313 and the Chalcedonian fallout in 451). It's hard to be too oppressive when the pagans are replaced by hostile Christians who are subsequently replaced by hostile Muslims who have yet to be replaced. If there is one good thing that can be said about the COC relative to other churches it is that we are famously anti-establishmentarian, which has worked to the advantage of the Church historically and is probably the one political factor that does more to ensure its survival than any other. The times when we have been at our lowest ebbs have been also times when we were most closely tied to the government (leading to, e.g., the 1957 bylaws for the election of the Pope, which everyone agrees are a mess and symptomatic of a turbulent era that still affects us to this day; they were supposed to be rewritten upon the election of the most recent Pope, and HE Metropolitan Pakhomious received promises from all the papal candidates to that effect, but then the MB took over Egypt and Christians were displaced from their villages, churches were destroyed and the Cathedral was attacked and...well, life happened).
     
  20. paul becke

    paul becke Regular Member Supporter

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    I don't think it at all surprising that even in its broadest outline, the nature/supernature of the Most Holy Trinity should retain impenetrable mystery.

    The further even physicists go today, the more they run into paradoxes, good old-fashioned 'mysteries', as we call them. How much more so, the ultimate truth containing and governing all.
     
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