Importance of the Filioque

aChildOfMary · Mar 26, 2015

I don't believe in the Filioque addition, how decisive is this or should it be for me as Catholic?
To be frank I don't consider it to be very essential for me personally and I also bother little or nothing with this on an spiritual level.

What do you think?
I don't say that it's wrong or anything just that based on my own investigations and understanding I simply believe that the Holy Spirit exceeds from the Father only.

Any advice?

Pax Christi
aChildOfMary

Rhamiel · Mar 26, 2015

it was added at a time when there were serious errors in the Western Church that needed correction

over the years it has become part of the Western tradition
so I think we should keep it
but I also understand why Eastern churches do not have it

gurneyhalleck1 · Mar 26, 2015

I think Rhamiel's point is a decent one. I am attending an Eastern Catholic mission parish. Like my former Orthodox parish, we do not recite the filioque.

But I must say that the more I study what some of the Fathers and saints of the Church said about it, I don't have much of a problem with it these days.

The problem I have with the filioque is the sketchy way it was dealt with in the West. Popes made statements that they wouldn't make it part of the Creed then centuries later...did just that. Is it BAD theology? From the Eastern point of view with the monarchical set up with the Father, they think it is.

I think the filioque at the time was just an excuse for East and West to divorce. It's like two people married who have fallen out of love over stupid things like chick flicks and clipping your toenails on the bed spread! Eventually you need to cook up a "real" reason to divorce in actuality. This is what I see in the East. You have the Massacre of the Latins by the Orthodox, you have the Sacking of Constantinople by the Roman Catholics, one using leavened bread mocking the other one for not doing so and pouring their Host all over the streets defiling them, the Roman Church's legate of the pope excommunicating the Patriarch of Constantinople when the POPE IS ALREADY DEAD!? East and West think very, very differently on church polity and their approach to spirituality. I think the gulf that opened up combined with a language barrier, barbarians in between East and West and Islam on the rise and all sorts of lousy conditions, it was the perfect storm for a mushroom cloud.

Is an Eastern Catholic parish in your area? If so, that's a GREAT option!

But if you wish to stay Roman, I'd start with the papacy. If you feel the Holy Father is in the Petrine Chair and the Church is correct on the Pope's claims and what the catechism teaches about Catholic polity and tradition and theology, then I'd say you just need to accept the filioque and pray, "Lord, help me in my confusion and unbelief." If you absolutely cannot accept it, then you might have issues with the papacy itself. That's when you ask yourself if you're truly Catholic or not? I'd say go EC first as your fall-back and really research the HECK out of the filioque with patristics. Read St. Augustine and the boys!

AXO · Mar 26, 2015

The procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son is a dogma of faith... So you have got a problem. I really recommend the Contra errores Graecorum (Against the errors of the Greeks) by St. Thomas Aquinas, in which the Angelical Doctor deals with all this.

aChildOfMary · Mar 26, 2015

gurneyhalleck1 said:
I think Rhamiel's point is a decent one. I am attending an Eastern Catholic mission parish. Like my former Orthodox parish, we do not recite the filioque.

But I must say that the more I study what some of the Fathers and saints of the Church said about it, I don't have much of a problem with it these days.

The problem I have with the filioque is the sketchy way it was dealt with in the West. Popes made statements that they wouldn't make it part of the Creed then centuries later...did just that. Is it BAD theology? From the Eastern point of view with the monarchical set up with the Father, they think it is.

I think the filioque at the time was just an excuse for East and West to divorce. It's like two people married who have fallen out of love over stupid things like chick flicks and clipping your toenails on the bed spread! Eventually you need to cook up a "real" reason to divorce in actuality. This is what I see in the East. You have the Massacre of the Latins by the Orthodox, you have the Sacking of Constantinople by the Roman Catholics, one using leavened bread mocking the other one for not doing so and pouring their Host all over the streets defiling them, the Roman Church's legate of the pope excommunicating the Patriarch of Constantinople when the POPE IS ALREADY DEAD!? East and West think very, very differently on church polity and their approach to spirituality. I think the gulf that opened up combined with a language barrier, barbarians in between East and West and Islam on the rise and all sorts of lousy conditions, it was the perfect storm for a mushroom cloud.

Is an Eastern Catholic parish in your area? If so, that's a GREAT option!

But if you wish to stay Roman, I'd start with the papacy. If you feel the Holy Father is in the Petrine Chair and the Church is correct on the Pope's claims and what the catechism teaches about Catholic polity and tradition and theology, then I'd say you just need to accept the filioque and pray, "Lord, help me in my confusion and unbelief." If you absolutely cannot accept it, then you might have issues with the papacy itself. That's when you ask yourself if you're truly Catholic or not? I'd say go EC first as your fall-back and really research the HECK out of the filioque with patristics. Read St. Augustine and the boys!

I agree with you Gurney in your presumptions that the split was growing and I find your Marrige analogy to be very describing.

As I said I dont hold it to be VERY important as for which of the two communions I belong to (Orthodox or Catholic), Its not like the Filioque would push me into Orthodoxy or anything so I will stay Catholic.

I find Catholicism to be cultural satisfying and also I believe that the Pope is the rock which the house of faith should be based upon.
The chair of Saint Peter and its universial jurisdiction is one of my firmest belifs so Im sure Ill always stay Catholic unless something changes drastically (like SSM and so on).

Ive always found the infallible dogma very challenging, but accepted it beacuse I can live with it due to my belief in the role of the Bishop of Rome.

Staying Roman is of less importance for me to be perfectly honest so in many ways Eastern Catholicism would be perfect for me, to bad we dont have one single parish in the entire country...
Ive also been to DL in my nearest Russian church and Wow!

gurneyhalleck1 · Mar 26, 2015

Yeah, a lot of people told me "hey, gurney, you sound like you want to stay Catholic but you're in love with so much about Orthodoxy! Try Eastern Catholic!" I would roll my eyes and say, "dang it, we DON'T HAVE ONE anywhere near here!!!" hissing.

Then after the MELT-DOWN drama garbage absurdity that has taken place at my Orthodox parish and all the ethnic junk and anti-Western stuff, I just left. Can't take it anymore. The worship of Serbia and Russia makes me need Dramamine at times.

And lo and behold what happened when I left my Orthodox life---an Eastern Catholic parish POOF! Pops up out of nowhere! So this has been a whirlwind Lent for me. I have prayed at my Roman parish the Stations of the Cross, prayed my rosary, but also have attended 1 Mass and 4 EC Divine Liturgies! I'm still full of scar tissue from my Orthodox experience and extremely raw and hurt, but healing.....SLOOOOOWLY!

aChildOfMary said:
I agree with you Gurney in your presumptions that the split was growing and I find your Marrige analogy to be very describing.

As I said I dont hold it to be VERY important as for which of the two communions I belong to (Orthodox or Catholic), Its not like the Filioque would push me into Orthodoxy or anything so I will stay Catholic.

I find Catholicism to be cultural satisfying and also I believe that the Pope is the rock which the house of faith should be based upon.
The chair of Saint Peter and its universial jurisdiction is one of my firmest belifs so Im sure Ill always stay Catholic unless something changes drastically (like SSM and so on).

Ive always found the infallible dogma very challenging, but accepted it beacuse I can live with it due to my belief in the role of the Bishop of Rome.

Staying Roman is of less importance for me to be perfectly honest so in many ways Eastern Catholicism would be perfect for me, to bad we dont have one single parish in the entire country...
Ive also been to DL in my nearest Russian church and Wow!

Fish and Bread · Mar 26, 2015

gurneyhalleck1 said:
You have the Massacre of the Latins by the Orthodox

I'm not familiar with that incident. Or if I knew it at one time, I've forgotten about it. Where can I find out more about it?

mark46 · Mar 26, 2015

Fish and Bread said:
I'm not familiar with that incident. Or if I knew it at one time, I've forgotten about it. Where can I find out more about it?

Massacre of the Latins - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

mark46 · Mar 26, 2015

gurneyhalleck1 said:
Yeah, a lot of people told me "hey, gurney, you sound like you want to stay Catholic but you're in love with so much about Orthodoxy! Try Eastern Catholic!" I would roll my eyes and say, "dang it, we DON'T HAVE ONE anywhere near here!!!" hissing.

Then after the MELT-DOWN drama garbage absurdity that has taken place at my Orthodox parish and all the ethnic junk and anti-Western stuff, I just left. Can't take it anymore. The worship of Serbia and Russia makes me need Dramamine at times.

And lo and behold what happened when I left my Orthodox life---an Eastern Catholic parish POOF! Pops up out of nowhere! So this has been a whirlwind Lent for me. I have prayed at my Roman parish the Stations of the Cross, prayed my rosary, but also have attended 1 Mass and 4 EC Divine Liturgies! I'm still full of scar tissue from my Orthodox experience and extremely raw and hurt, but healing.....SLOOOOOWLY!

Welcome home, and may the Holy Spirit guide you in this time of transition.

Erose · Mar 26, 2015

aChildOfMary said:
I don't believe in the Filioque addition, how decisive is this or should it be for me as Catholic?
To be frank I don't consider it to be very essential for me personally and I also bother little or nothing with this on an spiritual level.

What do you think?
I don't say that it's wrong or anything just that based on my own investigations and understanding I simply believe that the Holy Spirit exceeds from the Father only.

Any advice?

Pax Christi
aChildOfMary

i would recommend you read St. Augustine's "On the Trinity". Probably the best treatise on God's persons ever written.

gurneyhalleck1 · Mar 26, 2015

Thank you, Mark. When I got chrismated Orthodox, I had many Orthodox walk up to me, "welcome home." Oh how ironic and crazy life has been for me! I've gone from home to home to home!

Thanks for the kind words. People have been extraordinarily thoughtful to me. I think for the people who know what happened to me in my old parish, there is genuine empathy and warmth from everyone I've spoken to.

Honestly I just don't know what the future holds. For all I know I could go back and stick with Orthodoxy. It's deeply ingrained in my heart. But I just feel 'pulled' toward this Eastern Catholic parish, and there is always a place in my heart for the West. Not sure where I'll go, but I'm just putting my hope and GPS in God's hands to show me the way.

Thanks again

mark46 said:
Welcome home, and may the Holy Spirit guide you in this time of transition.

GlockMeister · Mar 27, 2015

I don't feel strongly about it. I say it at Mass and don't say it in the rare instances I'm at a Divine Liturgy.

aChildOfMary · Mar 27, 2015

GlockMeister said:
I don't feel strongly about it. I say it at Mass and don't say it in the rare instances I'm at a Divine Liturgy.

Don't you feel dishonest when saying it at mass?
I've said it at mass until recently and as I did I felt dishonest, now I stay quite for that single sentence of the Creed while being at mass.
When praying the Rosary or any other private prayer I use the version without the Filioque as I feel like it's honest.

But of course I much like you don't Botter with it to much.
it's details as far as I consern

Antoninus · Mar 27, 2015

I was raised Roman Catholic, spent some time at a Byzantine Catholic parish, was chrismated Orthodox, left the Orthodox Church and started attending a diocesan parish that celebrates the traditional Latin Mass for a few years. They changed the time of the Mass to a more inconvenient one, so now I am going to a Ukrainian Catholic parish that has an English Divine Liturgy. The people at the UC parish are the friendliest of any parish Catholic or Orthodox I have ever been to. Sometimes I get tempted to go back to the Orthodox Church, but I truly believe the Catholic Church has the fullness of the Faith and despite problems in some segments in Catholicism, there are also many problems in Orthodoxy. When I was Orthodox the people at coffee every Sunday would rip into the Catholic Church. I never was comfortable with that. At all the Catholic parishes I have been to they never speak negatively of Orthodox, actually they don't say anything about then. We speak about regular every day things at coffee hour like sports or what we did for the week.

gurneyhalleck1 said:
Thank you, Mark. When I got chrismated Orthodox, I had many Orthodox walk up to me, "welcome home." Oh how ironic and crazy life has been for me! I've gone from home to home to home!

Thanks for the kind words. People have been extraordinarily thoughtful to me. I think for the people who know what happened to me in my old parish, there is genuine empathy and warmth from everyone I've spoken to.

Honestly I just don't know what the future holds. For all I know I could go back and stick with Orthodoxy. It's deeply ingrained in my heart. But I just feel 'pulled' toward this Eastern Catholic parish, and there is always a place in my heart for the West. Not sure where I'll go, but I'm just putting my hope and GPS in God's hands to show me the way.

Thanks again

AXO · Mar 27, 2015

aChildOfMary said:
Don't you feel dishonest when saying it at mass?
I've said it at mass until recently and as I did I felt dishonest, now I stay quite for that single sentence of the Creed while being at mass.
When praying the Rosary or any other private prayer I use the version without the Filioque as I feel like it's honest.

But of course I much like you don't Botter with it to much.
it's details as far as I consern

The Tradition is unanimous. The heresy of the only procession comes with the 9th-century heretic and schismatic Photius of Constantinople. The symbol with the filioque clause is part of the tradition of the Latin church. Why would you feel dishonest? I will be writing an apologetical blog about a point on this soon.

GlockMeister · Mar 27, 2015

AXO said:
The Tradition is unanimous. The heresy of the only procession comes with the 9th-century heretic and schismatic Photius of Constantinople. The symbol with the filioque clause is part of the tradition of the Latin church. Why would you feel dishonest? I will be writing an apologetical blog about a point on this soon.

If not using the Filioque is heresy, why are the ECs allowed to not use it?

AXO · Mar 27, 2015

GlockMeister said:
If not using the Filioque is heresy, why are the ECs allowed to not use it?

If you read my message, you'd see that I wrote the Latin church. The Eastern churches do not include the clause in the symbol, anyway that does not mean they do not believe in it whatsoever.

By the way, I feel compelled to say that this is a dogma of faith. The denial of it is an error of faith, and the reiteration of that denial after being corrected leads to heresy (ergo, latae sententiae excommunication; cf. CIC can. 751, 1364 §1).

dzheremi · Mar 27, 2015

AXO said:
The Tradition is unanimous. The heresy of the only procession comes with the 9th-century heretic and schismatic Photius of Constantinople. The symbol with the filioque clause is part of the tradition of the Latin church. Why would you feel dishonest? I will be writing an apologetical blog about a point on this soon.

Apparently Photius is celebrated liturgically as a saint in the Melkite Greek Catholic Church: Photios of Constantinople - An Eastern Catholic Saint? - Catholic Answers Forums

gurneyhalleck1 · Mar 27, 2015

Yes. You'll hear a TON of anti-Western stuff at coffee hours in Orthodoxy in my area. They're caught up in trashing Catholics, do a little beating up of the Protestants here and there, and I don't think it has been good for me at all. And you're correct---all the Catholics I know hold Orthodox Christians in VERY high regard! They admire them and only say and see good things in them. They have all this hope for reunion and this brotherly angle. The Orthodox have ZERO desire for such things. An ecumenist is a sell-out.

One thing I used to buy into when I first went Orthodox was the "we never had a bunch of rebels, break-offs, no Reformation in the East! No need! We're perfect!" But after you look into all the break-off weirdos--Old Calendarists, the "World" Orthodox, "True" Orthodox, and a long list of other non-canonical Orthodox groups, you realize that there is a lot of division. At my parish (now former), it's Serbian. They mock the Greeks down the street. Why? Their icons are "funny-looking" and they "USE AN ORGAN" with their music. Plus they sit down a couple times during the Divine Liturgy.

It's weird.

But what is LOVELY about Orthodoxy is, no matter who the priest is, where you go--- NO LITURGICAL ABUSE! I do love that.

But yeah, your post spoke to me. Kindred spirits I think, you and I, in our crazy journeys!

Antoninus said:
I was raised Roman Catholic, spent some time at a Byzantine Catholic parish, was chrismated Orthodox, left the Orthodox Church and started attending a diocesan parish that celebrates the traditional Latin Mass for a few years. They changed the time of the Mass to a more inconvenient one, so now I am going to a Ukrainian Catholic parish that has an English Divine Liturgy. The people at the UC parish are the friendliest of any parish Catholic or Orthodox I have ever been to. Sometimes I get tempted to go back to the Orthodox Church, but I truly believe the Catholic Church has the fullness of the Faith and despite problems in some segments in Catholicism, there are also many problems in Orthodoxy. When I was Orthodox the people at coffee every Sunday would rip into the Catholic Church. I never was comfortable with that. At all the Catholic parishes I have been to they never speak negatively of Orthodox, actually they don't say anything about then. We speak about regular every day things at coffee hour like sports or what we did for the week.

GlockMeister · Mar 27, 2015

AXO said:
If you read my message, you'd see that I wrote the Latin church. The Eastern churches do not include the clause in the symbol, anyway that does not mean they do not believe in it whatsoever.

By the way, I feel compelled to say that this is a dogma of faith. The denial of it is an error of faith, and the reiteration of that denial after being corrected leads to heresy (ergo, latae sententiae excommunication; cf. CIC can. 751, 1364 §1).

From what I've heard, a lot of them disbelieve the Filioque. Not that I'm speaking for them, we have a few here and they can speak for themselves. I'm just repeating what I've heard.

As for myself, it's not an issue upon which hangs salvation. The older form was decided by full Ecumenical Council: Nicea/Constantinople. As far as I've read, the new way was just an addition to a particular Church (Spanish) as a way to combat Arianism. The Pope's even faught against it during Charlemagne's time. But eventually it became universal in the Latin Church.

So since I have reservations about it, due to my Eastern leanings, I just leave it out in my private devotions, but say it at Mass since Mass is a communal act and I shouldn't alter it to suit my private devotions.

Importance of the Filioque

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