Immoral Christians

[Mayflower1]

Morality is predestined... you really can't do anything about it. What your morals are mostly are the way God predestined them to be.

 

[jad123]

I didn't start this thread to be preached at - I was asking a question about the alleged connection between religiosity and morality.

But thanks for your concern.

That is far from preaching but I would be happy to share the gospel and the love of Christ with you.

 

[Thomas35]

Sorry I was in a hurry. I'm not perfect. I 'm a follower of Jesus Christ He forgives me.
Where do you get your morals from???????

 

[dvd_holc]

I disagree. All that is not an actually argument, it's all just unsubstantiated opinion. I have one of my own, but thanks for offering yours.

Einstein averred that morality is a purely human matter that can be understood with no reference to the supernatural. I just happen to agree - argument from authority means nothing (especially in religion) but I just enjoy the idea that Einstein was smart enough to have the same insight as I. LOL. On the other hand, Pat Robertson agrees with you. LOL.

Ok, then we are done.

 

[JGL53]

That is far from preaching but I would be happy to share the gospel and the love of Christ with you.

No thanks, being exposed to 20 years of such sharing was plenty.

But thanks again for your concern. Sincerely is probably half of it - so, if this were baseball, you'd be batting .500! Wow!

 

[JGL53]

Sorry I was in a hurry. I'm not perfect. I 'm a follower of Jesus Christ He forgives me.
Where do you get your morals from???????

I'll let my late buddy Albert Einstein clue you in:

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death"

This particular quote is listed about #48, I think, here:

http://rescomp.stanford.edu/~cheshire/EinsteinQuotes.html

 

[JGL53]

Ok, then we are done.

Done. And done.

 

[Mayflower1]

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23

"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23

"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." Romans 11:29

 

[JGL53]

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23

"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23

"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." Romans 11:29

I see you've gone back on automatic. LOL.

Have a nice day.

 

[jad123]

I'll let my late buddy Albert Einstein clue you in:

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeeded be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death"

This particular quote is listed about #48, I think, here:

http://rescomp.stanford.edu/~cheshire/EinsteinQuotes.html

Einstein quotes, I like those, a brilliant man. While he was not Christian he at least admitted the truth of God.

"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind."

"When the solution is simple, God is answering."

"I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details."

 

[Mayflower1]

I see you've gone back on automatic. LOL.

Have a nice day.

 

[BelindaP]

Here's my view. There are immoral people in every society--both the Christian society and the athiestic society.

Serial killers are typically socialpaths. Science does not yet understand how they are created, or if they are born. It just knows that a certain percentage of the population are that way. My estimate is that the same percentage of athiests are sociopaths as are Christians. However, since there are vastly more Christians than athiests in this country, you don't hear of that many athiestic sociopaths.

Besides, it's not news if an sociopath turns out to be an athiest. That's what people tend to expect (my apologies for people's expectations of athiests BTW). However, a God-fearing, family-man kind of sociopath. Now, that's a man-bites-dog kind of story. The media love that kind of story.

Sociopaths tend to be charming individuals. They also crave power and attention. An easy climate to rise quickly in influence and attention is a church. Being involved in a church also gives the appearance of respectability. For a sociopath, this is ideal because he can take care of two birds with one stone.

Now, as far as child molesters, rapists and the like. Again, I think that the percentages are probably fairly even. I just don't think that people take note of the athiestic offenders as much as those who are "good, Christian people", though.

 

[JGL53]

Einstein quotes, I like those, a brilliant man. While he was not Christian he at least admitted the truth of God.

"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind."

"When the solution is simple, God is answering."

"I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details."

Einstein used religious words like "spiritual" and "god" in analogous ways. He stated that he had no belief in a personal god - on that judges, gives us morality, etc., and he state he did not believe in personal immortality- he said such is for the weak-minded.

This quotes are not on the site I linked, but if you want a reference I can find one for you.

A person calling himself an "atheist" is a choice, maybe even an affectation. Einstein avoided the word atheist for several reasons - one being he did not want to be seen as a "communist" or a "subversive" and secondly because a lot of atheists are militantly anti-religion and Einstein was mild-mannered and just wanted everyone to get along.

Both Einstein and Spinoza, who he greatly admired, both qualified as atheists, in the strict sense of the word, meaning not having any recognized supernatural beliefs, certainly not of a person god or of human immortality.

I know religionists really REALLY want to claim Einstein as one of their own, but the facts say otherwise. I

n any case you believe Einstein is in hell right now, barring a death bed confession we don't know of), right?

Well, I think THAT is certainly an insult to his memory, if nothing else, my friend.

 

[JGL53]

Here's my view. There are immoral people in every society--both the Christian society and the athiestic society.

Serial killers are typically socialpaths. Science does not yet understand how they are created, or if they are born. It just knows that a certain percentage of the population are that way. My estimate is that the same percentage of athiests are sociopaths as are Christians. However, since there are vastly more Christians than athiests in this country, you don't hear of that many athiestic sociopaths.

Besides, it's not news if an sociopath turns out to be an athiest. That's what people tend to expect (my apologies for people's expectations of athiests BTW). However, a God-fearing, family-man kind of sociopath. Now, that's a man-bites-dog kind of story. The media love that kind of story.

Sociopaths tend to be charming individuals. They also crave power and attention. An easy climate to rise quickly in influence and attention is a church. Being involved in a church also gives the appearance of respectability. For a sociopath, this is ideal because he can take care of two birds with one stone.

Now, as far as child molesters, rapists and the like. Again, I think that the percentages are probably fairly even. I just don't think that people take note of the athiestic offenders as much as those who are "good, Christian people", though.

If I ever begin to fear I am turning into a psychopath or sociopath, I will make a bee-line to the nearest church.

In the meantime, I will be content with my assessment that religion and morality have no necessary connection whatsoever.

Fair enough?

 

[JGL53]

Gotta take a break.

Please keep all Christian-oriented replies as concise as possible and free from preaching, if you all will. LOL.

Later.

 

[BelindaP]

I agree with you on that. Both athiests and Christians strive to be as good as they can be. They just have different motivations and methods.

 

[BelindaP]

Anyone who believes for sure that Einstein is in hell should go back and read their bibles a little more closely. Who goes to hell is up to God, not us. God's mercy is infinite, so we should not judge.

 

[jad123]

Einstein used religious words like "spiritual" and "god" in analogous ways. He stated that he had no belief in a personal god - on that judges, gives us morality, etc., and he state he did not believe in personal immortality- he said such is for the weak-minded.

This quotes are not on the site I linked, but if you want a reference I can find one for you.

A person calling himself an "atheist" is a choice, maybe even an affectation. Einstein avoided the word atheist for several reasons - one being he did not want to be seen as a "communist" or a "subversive" and secondly because a lot of atheists are militantly anti-religion and Einstein was mild-mannered and just wanted everyone to get along.

Both Einstein and Spinoza, who he greatly admired, both qualified as atheists, in the strict sense of the word, meaning not having any recognized supernatural beliefs, certainly not of a person god or of human immortality.

I know religionists really REALLY want to claim Einstein as one of their own, but the facts say otherwise. I

n any case you believe Einstein is in hell right now, barring a death bed confession we don't know of), right?

Well, I think THAT is certainly an insult to his memory, if nothing else, my friend.

Well I do not claim to know if Einstein is in hell or not. I leave matters of salvation to God. As for his beliefs, I guess it depends on what you listen to. As you say religionist really want to claim Einstein and conversely atheists can not imagine an intelligent man such as Einstein believing in God.

 

[PhilosopherD]

I am curious as to how Christians could explain the fact of those who clearly believe in god, yet are serial murderers? (BTW, I am an atheist I've never even seriously considered murdering even one person, much less a whole group. I thought god belief was supposedly THE path to being "a better person" and atheism much less so, right?) To wit:

Both John List and the BTK murderer were both regular church goers, year after year. List murdered his entire family, including his mother, wife, and three children, in a well thought-out plan and escaped justice for 18 years before he was caught. He was a church deacon before he murdered his family, and when caught he was a church deacon in a new church and had remarried a women he met at his new church. Everyone who knew him was quite surprised, as he was a hard worker, quiet and shy, and was very kind and considerate.

The BTK killer (BTK = bind -torture-kill) was also a church deacon who murdered about 8 people, including several children, all “in cold blood”. He had attended church the Sunday before he was finally caught. He would have, no doubt, attended church the next Sunday, just as he regularly did, if he had not been arrested and charged with serial murder. Again, he was a pillar of the community type that no one who knew him would ever suspect he was a murderer, since he was so kind and helpful and such a good citizen day-to-day.

Neither of these men just “snapped” and killed once in a rage. Both thought out their murders and escaped detection for years.

So, here are just two modern day examples of how god believers also believe it is “okay” to murder for fun.

And the explanation for this would be…..?

(Other atheists kindly please butt out of this thread – yeah, we all know about the 1300 years of murder and torture perpetrated by Christian god believers in Europe and America, the horror of which is comparable, perhaps even worse in many ways, than any atrocity that Hitler or Stalin ever ordered. I am ONLY asking about the two specific modern day examples listed above. Thank you for your cooperation.)

Possible Answer 1 : Both individuals that you describe above have, or had, malfunctioning minds. There is nothing in the N.T. stating that belief in God will somehow prevent or cure deep psychological disturbances.

Possible Answer 2 : Both individuals used religion as a pretext to cover their psychopathic actions. The N.T. is replete with examples of the "NO True Scotsman." (i.e. "You will know them by their fruits") ...thus, profession + good fruit = authentic, BUT profession + bad fruit = fake

 

[s_gunter]

"You do not need to be a Christian to be moral by Man's standards."

Now that I think about it, I should never have started this thread. OF COURSE that is the way it is - when a Christian used the word "moral" it means something different than how a mere humam, such as myself, uses the word.

This is the answer to my question. Christians and others have no basis to understand what the other is talking about regarding the subject of moral vs. immoral behavior. Secularists are only concerned with the life we know we have and the problems we must deal with now - Christians are focused on some other world, doing whatever it is they must do, and avoiding whatever they must not do, to get on the right side of the Man behind the curtain.

OK then. Sorry I asked.

Moderater - please close this thread - my question has been effectively answered.

highlighting done by me.

Thread closed per OP request
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