Immoral Christians

[JGL53]

I am curious as to how Christians could explain the fact of those who clearly believe in god, yet are serial murderers? (BTW, I am an atheist I've never even seriously considered murdering even one person, much less a whole group. I thought god belief was supposedly THE path to being "a better person" and atheism much less so, right?) To wit:

Both John List and the BTK murderer were both regular church goers, year after year. List murdered his entire family, including his mother, wife, and three children, in a well thought-out plan and escaped justice for 18 years before he was caught. He was a church deacon before he murdered his family, and when caught he was a church deacon in a new church and had remarried a women he met at his new church. Everyone who knew him was quite surprised, as he was a hard worker, quiet and shy, and was very kind and considerate.

The BTK killer (BTK = bind -torture-kill) was also a church deacon who murdered about 8 people, including several children, all “in cold blood”. He had attended church the Sunday before he was finally caught. He would have, no doubt, attended church the next Sunday, just as he regularly did, if he had not been arrested and charged with serial murder. Again, he was a pillar of the community type that no one who knew him would ever suspect he was a murderer, since he was so kind and helpful and such a good citizen day-to-day.

Neither of these men just “snapped” and killed once in a rage. Both thought out their murders and escaped detection for years.

So, here are just two modern day examples of how god believers also believe it is “okay” to murder for fun.

And the explanation for this would be…..?

(Other atheists kindly please butt out of this thread – yeah, we all know about the 1300 years of murder and torture perpetrated by Christian god believers in Europe and America, the horror of which is comparable, perhaps even worse in many ways, than any atrocity that Hitler or Stalin ever ordered. I am ONLY asking about the two specific modern day examples listed above. Thank you for your cooperation.)

 

[MethodMan]

The explanation would be that not all people that go to Church are Christians. No Christian is perfect.

 

[dvd_holc]

Yeah, ditto...not everyone who goes to church are Christians. And further, in the history of the world civilization has believed in God or gods; however, this did not prevent people from murdering others.

Simple put, those who follow Jesus are people who want and go about life becoming conformed to what Jesus is. Those who don't change into being like Jesus are not like Jesus. We can't be perfect, but we are consummed with a fire to be loving toward everyone at all times. And the fulfillness of our love would be "If our enemy is hungry we feed him; if he is thirsty, give him a drink." For doing so, we display the love of Jesus for humanity which is the witness of God to the world of His Son. But to those who take the name of Jesus and do not change to be like Jesus...the name of God has become blasphemy because people curse God because they misled the nations away from the purpose of God. God has prepared wrath for those who reject His way, but in this moment God has given mercy that mercy might spread to all the earth for the consulation and redemption of those who struggle to find God.

 

[Kristos]

are you talking to yourself

 

[Thomas35]

The explanation would be that not all people that go to Church are Christians. No Christian is perfect.

Titus 1:16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny Him.
James 2:19 even the demons believe in God.

Their are alot of people who say they are a christian. Some say their a christian because of a church doctrine. When your true christian your life will change. Christians are not perfect, but all christian should strive to be like Christ.

 

[JGL53]

The explanation would be that not all people that go to Church are Christians. No Christian is perfect.

No, I already understand that people can be hypocrites. I understand already that all people who go to church are not Christians, as you would define "Christian". And I understand that no person, atheist, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, Jain, Sikh, animist, or whatever is and never will be perfect in the sense of always acting in a way that we could agree is the kindest and most compassionate way of acting - All have sinned and fallen short, as you would no doubt say.

None of these concerns address my question. I am asking how two men, who both are long term church goers, who were viewed by their fellow church goers as paragons of virtue to the degree that any person can be, that appeared for years to be nice and sweet and kind, nevertheless committed horrible murderers that regular "sinners" like you and I would never even conceive of, much less commit. And the fact that you are a Christian and I am an atheist is besides the point here.

These men have and still are committed believers in god - then and now. You can say they MUST be lying, but why would you say that - other than your commitment to an "if this, then that, in ALL cases" kind of assertion, just based on your prejudices or wishes.

These men sat in church, orthodox Christians churches, for years and years and years. As far as any of their fellow church goers were concerned, they looked, acted, and spoke just like any other less-than-perfect sinner saved by the grace of God.

It turned out they were not. That is the fact. But they did NOT live any kind of an "immoral lifestyle" day to day, which is what I thought is how unrepentant sinners are identified.

Again, why did belief in god not prevent these men from being murderers, horrible serial murderers? Just to say "Well, a TRUE Christian wouldn't do that, etc." doesn't cut it. The "No True Scotsman" argument is fallacious.

We are not talking about the types of mundane sin that you and I commit on occasion, we are talking about the ultimate sin of murder of your fellow man (excepting blasphemy if you desire).

I am just asking how this can be. Raised as a Christian it has been my understanding that it could not be. And yet it is.

And my question remains unanswered by an Christian. (IS there a reasonable answer, or will "faith" be required as a substitute?)

 

[JGL53]

Yeah, ditto...not everyone who goes to church are Christians. And further, in the history of the world civilization has believed in God or gods; however, this did not prevent people from murdering others.

Simple put, those who follow Jesus are people who want and go about life becoming conformed to what Jesus is. Those who don't change into being like Jesus are not like Jesus. We can't be perfect, but we are consummed with a fire to be loving toward everyone at all times. And the fulfillness of our love would be "If our enemy is hungry we feed him; if he is thirsty, give him a drink." For doing so, we display the love of Jesus for humanity which is the witness of God to the world of His Son. But to those who take the name of Jesus and do not change to be like Jesus...the name of God has become blasphemy because people curse God because they misled the nations away from the purpose of God. God has prepared wrath for those who reject His way, but in this moment God has given mercy that mercy might spread to all the earth for the consulation and redemption of those who struggle to find God.

So your answer is "those who do not believe in god IN THE RIGHT WAY" may commit murder, but not those who do?

OK. Then I can say the same about secular people. Those who commit murder just don't think the right way.

Loggerheads. I am still looking for why god belief is required if there is apparently no evidence that it per se does anything good - i.e., most atheists seem to be law abiding citizens also.

 

[JGL53]

Titus 1:16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny Him.
James 2:19 even the demons believe in God.

Their are alot of people who say they are a christian. Some say their a christian because of a church doctrine. When your true christian your life will change. Christians are not perfect, but all christian should strive to be like Christ.

Ditto to you - see my answer to dvd_holc

Basically, are you saying I CAN'T be a normal moral person UNLESS I believe literally in Christianity, or that I am LESS likely to do so, or what?

What is the proven connection between Christianity and moral behavior? So far, it looks optional to me.

 

[JGL53]

are you talking to yourself

What if I am?

People who talk to themselves may or may not be schizophrenic. People who talk to god and he answers are considered schizophrenic by the psychiatric community.

But they (the psychiatrists) are heavily atheists, so what matters it, huh?

 

[McWilliams]

Who said they're christians?

I can call myself the Queen of Sheba but am I?

God knows them that are His!

Often we are totally unable to ascertain if one is a christian! Scripture tells us to examine ourself, to see if we're in the faith! The book of 1 John gives the test and the criteria.

 

[jad123]

No, I already understand that people can be hypocrites. I understand already that all people who go to church are not Christians, as you would define "Christian". And I understand that no person, atheist, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, Jain, Sikh, animist, or whatever is and never will be perfect in the sense of always acting in a way that we could agree is the kindest and most compassionate way of acting - All have sinned and fallen short, as you would no doubt say.

None of these concerns address my question. I am asking how two men, who both are long term church goers, who were viewed by their fellow church goers as paragons of virtue to the degree that any person can be, that appeared for years to be nice and sweet and kind, nevertheless committed horrible murderers that regular "sinners" like you and I would never even conceive of, much less commit. And the fact that you are a Christian and I am an atheist is besides the point here.

These men have and still are committed believers in god - then and now. You can say they MUST be lying, but why would you say that - other than your commitment to an "if this, then that, in ALL cases" kind of assertion, just based on your prejudices or wishes.

These men sat in church, orthodox Christians churches, for years and years and years. As far as any of their fellow church goers were concerned, they looked, acted, and spoke just like any other less-than-perfect sinner saved by the grace of God.

It turned out they were not. That is the fact. But they did NOT live any kind of an "immoral lifestyle" day to day, which is what I thought is how unrepentant sinners are identified.

Again, why did belief in god not prevent these men from being murderers, horrible serial murderers? Just to say "Well, a TRUE Christian wouldn't do that, etc." doesn't cut it. The "No True Scotsman" argument is fallacious.

We are not talking about the types of mundane sin that you and I commit on occasion, we are talking about the ultimate sin of murder of your fellow man (excepting blasphemy if you desire).

I am just asking how this can be. Raised as a Christian it has been my understanding that it could not be. And yet it is.

And my question remains unanswered by an Christian. (IS there a reasonable answer, or will "faith" be required as a substitute?)

You have been given answers you just do not like the answers you were given. These men you speak of obviously did not have the Holy Spirit indwelling in them.

Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruits, nor can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that does not bring forth good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Therefore by their fruits you shall know them.

They were obviously NOT of God but of Satan.

 

[MethodMan]

None of these concerns address my question. I am asking how two men, who both are long term church goers, who were viewed by their fellow church goers as paragons of virtue to the degree that any person can be, that appeared for years to be nice and sweet and kind, nevertheless committed horrible murderers that regular "sinners" like you and I would never even conceive of, much less commit. And the fact that you are a Christian and I am an atheist is besides the point here.

I learned early on in my discipleship to be weary of comparing myself to others in a spiritual way. To those I repsect, I lose. To those I do not, I win. Both are a decsion based on what I know about myself to what I do not know about others.

Matt 7:1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

These men have and still are committed believers in god

- then and now. You can say they MUST be lying, but why would you say that - other than your commitment to an "if this, then that, in ALL cases" kind of assertion, just based on your prejudices or wishes.

I never said any such thing. I can claim however, they are still loved by God the same as you and I. Their ability to receive Grace from God has not deminished in God's eye.

These men sat in church, orthodox Christians churches, for years and years and years. As far as any of their fellow church goers were concerned, they looked, acted, and spoke just like any other less-than-perfect sinner saved by the grace of God.

Yep!

It turned out they were not. That is the fact. But they did NOT live any kind of an "immoral lifestyle" day to day, which is what I thought is how unrepentant sinners are identified.

Seems folks can be fooled.

Again, why did belief in god not prevent these men from being murderers, horrible serial murderers? Just to say "Well, a TRUE Christian wouldn't do that, etc." doesn't cut it. The "No True Scotsman" argument is fallacious.

I look at the Story of King David. Sometimes, our sin nature will get the best of us. Pastors that become addicted to Porn. Priests that molest children in their care. Face it. We live in a sinful world and my place as a Christian does not guarantee perfection while still in the flesh.

We are not talking about the types of mundane sin that you and I commit on occasion, we are talking about the ultimate sin of murder of your fellow man (excepting blasphemy if you desire).

I am just asking how this can be. Raised as a Christian it has been my understanding that it could not be. And yet it is.

And my question remains unanswered by an Christian. (IS there a reasonable answer, or will "faith" be required as a substitute?)

Your Question has in fact been answered. You may not undersatnd it. As long as we are a part of this world, Salvation comes throuhg faith. Sanctification comes through the Spirit. Goes something like this:

The Christian assumes “birth into Christ.”

Which produces a hunger to know more and more about God’s will.

Then prompts a deliberate effort to learn God’s will:
a. through regular worship.
b. through study of his Word.
c. through fellowship with other saints.
d. through prayer.

Results in a broader understanding.

Changes a person’s sense of values.

Increases an awareness of sinfulness and drives the believer closer and closer to Christ.

Increases the awareness of God’s loving kindness.

Increases the believer’s sense of gratitude to God.

Creates a growing responsiveness to God’s will.

Enlarges the believer’s sense of responsibility:
a. in the use of time.
b. in the use of talents.
c. in the use of possessions.
d. for moral and spiritual integrity.

Produces sacrificial involvement whereby life is lived in the role of a servant.

Ends in Christlikeness.




Where you seem to misunderstand is that as a Christian, you can fall anywhere in this process. Still be a Christian.

As far as the 2 gentlemen are conserned, their actions are diplorable Just as the actions of King David. Only God can know their hearts.

 

[Thomas35]

Ditto to you - see my answer to dvd_holc

Basically, are you saying I CAN'T be a normal moral person UNLESS I believe literally in Christianity, or that I am LESS likely to do so, or what?

What is the proven connection between Christianity and moral behavior? So far, it looks optional to me.

There will be alot of good people going to hell. The bible says believers that go to hell will be worse off than unbelievers.
To make it to Heaven you have to have Faith in Jesus Christ and what He did for you. Faith is believing in something you can't see. Faith comes from hearing the message,and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
The way you live reflects where your faith is. If your doing good just for yourself that means nothing. The bible says even pagans are nice to people who are nice to them. How you treat your enemies tells alot about your faith. You have to do be doing the good for Jesus Christ. You do it out of love for Him.
The word believe is something alot so called christians need to look at very close. There a different levels of belief. Just like the word love in the bible. There are 6 levels of love. In John 3:16 the word believe means you believe so strongly your willing to act on it.
The bible says the luke warm believer he will spit them out of his mouth. To enter through the narrow gates of heaven you must love the Lord with everything you got. Not many so called christains do that. They can't even give 10% of the money they make to the Lord.

 

[JGL53]

Who said they're christians?

I can call myself the Queen of Sheba but am I?

God knows them that are His!

Often we are totally unable to ascertain if one is a christian! Scripture tells us to examine ourself, to see if we're in the faith! The book of 1 John gives the test and the criteria.

OK, fair enough. But I am trying to discern why Christianity, or any supernatural religious system, is necessarily associated with moral behavior, as opposed to secularism.

Aping you, I could say that all sane secularists will understand we are social beings and should respect each other, follow the golden rule, and work together to create a sane society and be law abiding citizens. All those who don't are just not thinking straight and should seek help before they cross the line into criminality and have to pay for their "sins" right here now on earth.

What evident can you present to show YOUR belief system is the either the only way to go, or at a minimum, the BEST way to go, vs. the subject of moral/immoral behavior?

Do you understand what I am asking?

 

[JGL53]

You have been given answers you just do not like the answers you were given. These men you speak of obviously did not have the Holy Spirit indwelling in them.

Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruits, nor can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that does not bring forth good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Therefore by their fruits you shall know them.

They were obviously NOT of God but of Satan.

OK - but see my post above. I still have the question, I guess, of why I need the Holy spirit to be moral. And why these men literally chose to expose themselves for years and years to the Holy Spirit in terms of having it preached right in their faces, yet still decided it was fun to murder? Why didn't they just hang at at bars, drinking and carousing, instead of being good family men - MOST of the time?

That is your question.

 

[JGL53]

I learned early on in my discipleship to be weary of comparing myself to others in a spiritual way. To those I repsect, I lose. To those I do not, I win. Both are a decsion based on what I know about myself to what I do not know about others.

Matt 7:1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."




I never said any such thing. I can claim however, they are still loved by God the same as you and I. Their ability to receive Grace from God has not deminished in God's eye.



Yep!



Seems folks can be fooled.



I look at the Story of King David. Sometimes, our sin nature will get the best of us. Pastors that become addicted to Porn. Priests that molest children in their care. Face it. We live in a sinful world and my place as a Christian does not guarantee perfection while still in the flesh.




Your Question has in fact been answered. You may not undersatnd it. As long as we are a part of this world, Salvation comes throuhg faith. Sanctification comes through the Spirit. Goes something like this:

The Christian assumes “birth into Christ.”

Which produces a hunger to know more and more about God’s will.

Then prompts a deliberate effort to learn God’s will:
a. through regular worship.
b. through study of his Word.
c. through fellowship with other saints.
d. through prayer.

Results in a broader understanding.

Changes a person’s sense of values.

Increases an awareness of sinfulness and drives the believer closer and closer to Christ.

Increases the awareness of God’s loving kindness.

Increases the believer’s sense of gratitude to God.

Creates a growing responsiveness to God’s will.

Enlarges the believer’s sense of responsibility:
a. in the use of time.
b. in the use of talents.
c. in the use of possessions.
d. for moral and spiritual integrity.

Produces sacrificial involvement whereby life is lived in the role of a servant.

Ends in Christlikeness.




Where you seem to misunderstand is that as a Christian, you can fall anywhere in this process. Still be a Christian.

As far as the 2 gentlemen are conserned, their actions are diplorable Just as the actions of King David. Only God can know their hearts.

This does not answer the question of why so many atheists like me are law-abiding citizens, hardly any different in our lifestyles than "church goers", be they receivers of the Holy Ghost, or not.

What do you have to offer me in terms of morality that I don't already have- here on earth, today?

And why do we see SO many church goers turning out to be the WORST type of sinners and SO many atheists just being regular people?

The assertion made most of the time by the pious flies in the face of the facts. That is what I am asking "Why?"

Don't repeat that we are ALL sinners - I understand that. That is not the question.

 

[MethodMan]

This does not answer the question of why so many atheists like me are law-abiding citizens, hardly any different in our lifestyles than "church goers", be they receivers of the Holy Ghost, or not.

Who made the laws? Why were they made? One must be careful of the standard used for judging what is Good. Christ him slef said to the Rich young man,"Why do ask me what is good?" (Matt 19:17) Implication being that it is God that sets that standard, not laws of men.

What do you have to offer me in terms of morality that I don't already have- here on earth, today?

I offer nothing.

And why do we see SO many church goers turning out to be the WORST type of sinners and SO many atheists just being regular people?

I haven't noticed this to be true

The assertion made most of the time by the pious flies in the face of the facts. That is what I am asking "Why?"

Don't repeat that we are ALL sinners - I understand that. That is not the question.

Then you need to clarify your real question.

 

[jad123]

OK - but see my post above. I still have the question, I guess, of why I need the Holy spirit to be moral. And why these men literally chose to expose themselves for years and years to the Holy Spirit in terms of having it preached right in their faces, yet still decided it was fun to murder? Why didn't they just hang at at bars, drinking and carousing, instead of being good family men - MOST of the time?

That is your question.

OK. I believe there are many moral men who are not Christians (Ghandi comes to mind immediately) and I also believe that you can turn your back on God for whatever reason. I do not believe in the OSAS doctrine preached by modern protestants. Not knowing exactly the situation I would offer then IMO that these men at one time new God but chose to turn their backs on the truth of theior salvation that is Jesus Christ. Why? Your guess is as good as anybody here. If you are trying to prove there are immoral Christians I would disagree though.

 

[JGL53]

There will be alot of good people going to hell. The bible says believers that go to hell will be worse off than unbelievers.
To make it to Heaven you have to have Faith in Jesus Christ and what He did for you. Faith is believing in something you can't see. Faith comes from hearing the message,and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
The way you live reflects where your faith is. If your doing good just for yourself that means nothing. The bible says even pagans are nice to people who are nice to them. How you treat your enemies tells alot about your faith. You have to do be doing the good for Jesus Christ. You do it out of love for Him.
The word believe is something alot so called christians need to look at very close. There a different levels of belief. Just like the word love in the bible. There are 6 levels of love. In John 3:16 the word believe means you believe so strongly your willing to act on it.
The bible says the luke warm believer he will spit them out of his mouth. To enter through the narrow gates of heaven you must love the Lord with everything you got. Not many so called christains do that. They can't even give 10% of the money they make to the Lord.

I understand that the pious make "belief in Jesus" or some such a moral question, i.e., rejection of the literal truth of Christianity is considered ipso facto the worse sin.

I see no reason to accept that. I have been using the word "sin" as an accomadation to you Christians, since you prefer that word. But what I am talking about is immoral behavior that ALL sane people recognize as such - e.g., murder, child-molestation, rape, robbing and burglery, cheating an old lady out of her life savings - that sort of thing. Please address yourself to these behaviors that all sane people agree are unacceptable.

Why am I to believe that Christian belief is a necessity for understanding we should be kind to one another?

Put aside your witnessing to me about accepting Jesus, etc. That is beside the point, it has no bearing on my question, it detracts us all from the actual question, and it ain't gonna happen anyway (I was raised by Southern Baptists - you think you actually have something new to run by me on that particular concern?).

The question is morality, as normally defined - which excluded the question of religious "truth". You can argue that issue with the Muslims, if you wish. I am not interested in that issue, and that is not my question here.

 

[JGL53]

Who made the laws? Why were they made? One must be careful of the standard used for judging what is Good. Christ him slef said to the Rich young man,"Why do ask me what is good?" (Matt 19:17) Implication being that it is God that sets that standard, not laws of men.



I offer nothing.



I haven't noticed this to be true



Then you need to clarify your real question.

You seem rather ethnocentric. Are you not aware of religious traditions in the east, existing for thousands of years and have billions of followers, who have no concept of a creator god, or an immortal human soul - yet they have organized political systems that prevent anarchy, haven't been any more authoritarian historically than those in the west, and have citizens who are just as moral on average as we in the west are?

You were not aware of this? Well, it is true. Thus, my questioin remains, why do I need Christian belief to be moral? Where is the proof of this? (your own personal testimony means nothing particular - I can counter it with my own).