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We are guided by them because they are divine revelation--and even your own church says this--not because of the process by which we came to recognize what they are.
I wouldn't have asked the questions if I didn't expect an answer.
Mmmmnnnnn, No. All of the books that are in the Bible were already in use in the various churches of the Roman world and were considered by them to be divine revelation.We know it is divine revelation ONLY because the Catholic Church declared it so.
The Early Church Fathers on
The Immaculate Conception
Mmmmnnnnn, No. All of the books that are in the Bible were already in use in the various churches of the Roman world and were considered by them to be divine revelation.
The process of "canonizing" them was merely an administrative procedure.
I don't really consider 500 years or so after Christ to be "early" Christianity. Who would (don't answer that)?
As we see from your own list, the idea of the Immaculate Conception was not of Apostolic origin.
No, early Christians as compared to, say, 70AD. Once we pass the age of the genuinely early church, all sorts of new ideas and corruptions have begun to creep into the church.Early Christians compared to say, 1517 AD, for example.
We don't see that at all.
That isn't the issue and it's not what you claimed. The issue is "Which books ARE God's word?"
They were already accepted. That was your contention--that we'd have no idea what Scripture was except for a church council putting a stamp of approval on certain books--but, in fact, the books that we consider to be divine revelation were ALREADY accepted, known, recognized by the churches.That is the issue. The other books were rejected by the Church while the books of the New Testament were accepted as scripture.
They were already accepted. That was your contention--that we'd have no idea what Scripture was except for a church council putting a stamp of approval on certain books--but, in fact, the books that we consider to be divine revelation were ALREADY accepted, known, recognized by the churches.
It is true.Not true. There was much controversy on the issue.
It is true.
There were disputes about books that are not God's word, but we were discussing how we'd recognize the ones that are. Besides, even the decision made by the 4th century councils didn't hold up; a number of churches around the world--in the Middle East and in Ethiopia, for instance--continue to use a different list up until our own time, and the Roman Catholic Church expelled some of the Bible itself during the "Counter-Reformation" of the 1500s, so we know for a certainty that the argument "You wouldn't know the Bible books except for the decision of the Catholic Church" isn't correct.
Well, that's your problem. I actually DO know history. At least, I'd think that a PhD in History would count. What's your own academic background in this area?I can't make you read history. The truth is out there if you are interested.
The two earliest references from Justin Martyr and Irenaeus simply couch the so-called new Eve (Mary) as sinless in regards to her consent to bear Christ. There's nothing of a much later concept that extends Mary's singular moment in time consent to her whole life, let alone her conception.The Early Church Fathers on
The Immaculate Conception
The Early Church Fathers referred to Mary as the second Eve. Where the first Eve was disobedient by sinning the second Eve (Mary) was obedient by not sinning. This is the natural conclusion to Genesis 3:15 where God says that He would put enmity between Satan and the woman (Mary). If Mary were to sin there would be no enmity or complete separation between her and Satan.
Justin Martyr
[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course that was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied, "Be it done unto me according to your word" (Luke 1:38) (Dialogue with Trypho 100 [A.D. 155]).
Irenaeus
Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, "Behold, 0 Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word." Eve . . . who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband — for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children . . . having become disobedient [sin], was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient [no sin], was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).
Well, that's your problem. I actually DO know history. At least, I'd think that a PhD in History would count. What's your own academic background in this area?
And you are supposed to be an expert on this...why?You don't know the history of the early Church. History from a protestant perspective is less than half the story. You just stated several inaccurate things about the canon of the New Testament.
I can write a history book.I can read a history book.
I can write a history book.
What you mean to say is that you have a computer and can access the "Catholic Answers" website entitled "New Advent." That's it.
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