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Immaculate Conception - Why Did It Take 1,854 Years to Discover This Doctrine?

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sunlover1

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well ..... cookies ^_^

(and I don't want to get the keyboard sticky)
Oh, LOL.
So really, you are protecting your keyboard,
Maybe he can learn something from you there.
Since rick recently suffered a loss, and I'm
NOt pointing a finger, I'm sure it was a natural
death not due to any neglect of vinegar on his part.

I don't have time to read through this entire thread. Can someone just give me the short version (of the answer to the OP)?

:D
LOL
From the looks of it, you better get
busy reading.
Just read the last few pages,
SPEED read.
:D
 
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Rick Otto

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Immaculate Conception - Why Did It Take 1,854 Years to Discover This Doctrine?

They didn't want it "underbaked"?

Women & eating!
Wherefrom, all man's woes?
Her unrestrained appetite!

(Does this sound like performance anxiety?);)

Now I know why women are banned from the priesthood!:D
 
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Thekla

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Mmmmmm
:swoon:
They smell like you better check em.
finally done :)



Why?
How old is 'too' old?
it is tradition that Mary was about 15, and Joseph (a widower ) was about 70. He kept the Law -- remember, he wanted to "put her away".
It was only when the angel directed him to do otherwise that he did not. These days, that age span would - in our culture- be considered
bordering on abusive.


I agree, but was speaking of this natural use:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men

But we do know what God created woman for.
HE created woman for man.
Neither was the man created for the woman;
but the woman for the man
but Joseph was, we can assume, a moral man. Mary's child was the Son of God; the Jews would not touch the Ark of the covenant (and in Luke's gospel, Elizabeth uses the term of greeting with Mary that is used in the OT to 'greet' the Ark of the Covenant).

a woman carrying the Messiah ? Can you imagine then to father with this woman another child, when the Father of the 1st child is
a. God and
b. not dead ?

not only would this be disrespectful, it would be adultery.
Re-marriage was permitted upon the death of a spouse.

the Church fathers say that the virgin birth was hidden by marriage; the fulfillment of prophecy was revealed to some when God wanted. Certainly the shepherds, the magii and Herod (and others) knew of this miraculous occurrence. But in the Gospels, there is no indication that the coming of the Messiah was widely known by the time Christ began His ministry at 30. I think it unlikely that many knew and then forgot.
This marriage had a 'divine purpose'; Joseph was a protector of the family - Mary and the young Son of God. Marriage hid the virgin birth, the fulfillment of prophecy, until the proper time.





Yeah, and I realise that sex isnt our 'destiny',
but it is a part of marriage, biblically speaking.

15 And did not he make one?
Yet had he the residued of the spirit.
And wherefore one?
That he might seek a godly seed.


15 Didn’t the Lord make you one with your wife?
In body and spirit you are his.*
And what does he want?
Godly children from your union
* Or Didn’t the one Lord make us and preserve our life and breath? or Didn’t the one Lord make her, both flesh and spirit? The meaning of the Hebrew is uncertain.
God the Father, by the Holy Spirit is the Father of the Christ whom Mary bore.
So who was she more 'united to' - Joseph, or the father of her Child ?





Mmmm.
I made spice cake and fudge cupcakes
today otherwise I'd be coveting your
butter cookies lol.
OH okay, so I"m still coveting
:sorry:
wanna swap ?
We'll do a sweets trade :thumbsup:

spice cake sounds really great on a cold rainy night !
 
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sunlover1

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it is tradition that Mary was about 15, and Joseph (a widower ) was about 70. He kept the Law -- remember, he wanted to "put her away".
It was only when the angel directed him to do otherwise that he did not. These days, that age span would - in our culture- be considered
bordering on abusive.
It was common then for men to marry
in their thirties and over to women in
their teens iirc.
but Joseph was, we can assume, a moral man. Mary's child was the Son of God; the Jews would not touch the Ark of the covenant (and in Luke's gospel, Elizabeth uses the term of greeting with Mary that is used in the OT to 'greet' the Ark of the Covenant).
different thread.
I dont know
that I'd ever compare
her to the Ark of the covenant.

a woman carrying the Messiah ? Can you imagine then to father with this woman another child, when the Father of the 1st child is
a. God and
b. not dead ?

not only would this be disrespectful, it would be adultery.
Re-marriage was permitted upon the death of a spouse.
But the Bible does say that Joseph didnt know he
until after Jesus was born.
I think that's giving us all
the information we'd need.
If God told Joseph to marry
Mary, why would he argue it?


God the Father, by the Holy Spirit is the Father of the Christ whom Mary bore.
So who was she more 'united to' - Joseph, or the father of her Child ?
But mary wasnt God's wife,
There's no comparison.

wanna swap ?
We'll do a sweets trade :thumbsup:

spice cake sounds really great on a cold rainy night
YES !
ONE butter cookie would do me just fine.
You can have the half a spice cake I have
left.
:thumbsup:
:D
at risk of us being teased again lol
 
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Thekla

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It was common then for men to marry
in their thirties and over to women in
their teens iirc.

I think so (20 yr span, but 50 ?)

different thread.
I dont know
that I'd ever compare
her to the Ark of the covenant.

it could be as well; but the point is that Luke used a term that is otherwise barely used, and never (I'll need to re-check) with a person.

the same with Gabriel's greeting to her in Luke; again a term - never used in the NT with a person (greeting).

Luke quietly (translation doesn't carry the points he makes at all) treats Mary as quite 'different' ... a special case.


But the Bible does say that Joseph didnt know he
until after Jesus was born.
I think that's giving us all
the information we'd need.
If God told Joseph to marry
Mary, why would he argue it?

if you go into TAW -- the Justin Martyr debate subforum, there are more scholarly discussions of the Greek use of the word translated as 'until'. This understanding of the term is not limited to Orthodox koine readers. Short summary -- in Greek, there is no interest in what happened after (and does not indicate, unlike English, a shift in condition or circumstance). The chief 'interest' of the 1st 3 gospels is the fulfillment of prophecy concerning Christ.


But mary wasnt God's wife,
There's no comparison.

well, even in 'modern terms' God was the father of her child. Certainly that knowledge had an impact on Joseph. And it still conveys the idea that to have other children with her is close to adultery. Remember, this is God we're talking about.


YES !
ONE butter cookie would do me just fine.
You can have the half a spice cake I have
left.
:thumbsup:
:D
at risk of us being teased again lol

Hey ! no deal ! I will gladly accept half a spice cake -- you must accept at least 20 kourembiedes (c'mon, they're not that bad ;))
 
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sunlover1

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I think so (20 yr span, but 50 ?)
Yucky huh?
They were pervs back then or we're prudes now.
I think maybe the latter.

it could be as well; but the point is that Luke used a term that is otherwise barely used, and never (I'll need to re-check) with a person.

the same with Gabriel's greeting to her in Luke; again a term - never used in the NT with a person (greeting).

Luke quietly (translation doesn't carry the points he makes at all) treats Mary as quite 'different' ... a special case.
Sorry thekla, I dont know anything about this
stuff so cannot discuss the ark of the covenant/
mary subject right now.


if you go into TAW -- the Justin Martyr debate subforum, there are more scholarly discussions of the Greek use of the word translated as 'until'. This understanding of the term is not limited to Orthodox koine readers. Short summary -- in Greek, there is no interest in what happened after (and does not indicate, unlike English, a shift in condition or circumstance). The chief 'interest' of the 1st 3 gospels is the fulfillment of prophecy concerning Christ.
Interesting, and I will look at that.

well, even in 'modern terms' God was the father of her child. Certainly that knowledge had an impact on Joseph. And it still conveys the idea that to have other children with her is close to adultery. Remember, this is God we're talking about.
Yeah, maybe had I read the same writing you've read
we'd be on the same page.
I've mostly just studied Scripture,
so I dont have any ECF ideas or
other to add to what little is written
about Mary.
So for me, no, I dont see it that way,
but I respect your perspective.

Hey ! no deal ! I will gladly accept half a spice cake -- you must accept at least 20 kourembiedes (c'mon, they're not that bad ;)
I cant think of much better than butter cookies.
Even when ya give them such a goofy name ;)
But I'm not supposed to eat sugar lol
(just for a season a year or five)
so for me, it's a square deal baby!!
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
 
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Brennin

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Did you even read what you quoted? It says "Offensive".

Man !

Romish
Pronunciation: \ˈrō-mish\ Function:adjective Date:1531 usually disparaging : roman catholic


Romish is not a compliment, certainly, but it is no more or less of a slight than "Arian."
 
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sunlover1

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Romish
Pronunciation: \ˈrō-mish\ Function:adjective Date:1531 usually disparaging : roman catholic


Romish is not a compliment, certainly, but it is no more or less of a slight than "Arian."
How bout heretic, seperated,
different gospel... :swoon:
I just read through this thread.

One thing everyone seems to overlook
is the fact that we do have an actual
enemy of the faith, and it's not flesh
and blood we wrestle. Then we only
get 'flesh' wounds ;)

Then what happens?
We get involved in offense (skandalon)
BAM, GOTCHA (says the enemy)

offence,Strong's Greek #4625
4625 σκάνδαλον [skandalon /skan·dal·on/]
1 the movable stick or trigger of a trap, a trap stick. 1a a trap, snare.
1b any impediment placed in the way and causing one to stumble or fall, (a stumbling block, occasion of stumbling) i.e. a rock which is a cause of stumbling. 1c fig. applied to Jesus Christ, whose person and career were so contrary to the expectations of the Jews concerning the Messiah, that they rejected him and by their obstinacy made shipwreck of their salvation.
2 any person or thing by which one is (entrapped) drawn into error or sin.



So then who's the winner?
Hint: not you or I..

Are we so easily tricked out of what God wants for us?
Our goal is to be men after God's own heart, when we
let the enemy lead our mouths, does God hang around?​
  • Who's part of the "true" church?
    The one who bears the fruit.

    :thumbsup:
 
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poppinskw

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So then who's the winner?
Hint: not you or I..

Are we so easily tricked out of what God wants for us?
Our goal is to be men after God's own heart, when we
let the enemy lead our mouths, does God hang around?​
  • Who's part of the "true" church?
    The one who bears the fruit.

    :thumbsup:

Ahh sunlover, what wise words... sadly sometimes we do allow ourselves to be tricked out of what God wants for us, but the Holy Spirit is always there guiding us onto the right path if we would just listen. I want to bear the right fruit... good post sister :thumbsup:
 
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sunlover1

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Ahh sunlover, what wise words... sadly sometimes we do allow ourselves to be tricked out of what God wants for us, but the Holy Spirit is always there guiding us onto the right path if we would just listen. I want to bear the right fruit... good post sister :thumbsup:

Thanks Mary Poppins! :hug:
You are very much a right fruit bearer!!

He leads us into paths of righteousness
for His name's sake!
:clap:

Back on track,
why DID it take so long
to discover this doctrine
everyone?
 
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sunlover1

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Tdigaetano

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Genesis 13:8
So Abram said to Lot, "Let's not have any quarreling between you and me, or between your herdsmen and mine, for we are brothers.

Genesis 14
14 Which when Abram had heard, to wit, that his brother Lot was taken, he numbered of the servants born in his house, three hundred and eighteen well appointed: and pursued them to Dan.

Genesis 14
16 And he brought back all the substance, and Lot his brother, with his substance, the women also and the people.

Luke 8:21
He replied, "My mother and brothers are those who hear God's word and put it into practice."

Matthew 1
25 And he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Bible Commentary:
25 "Till she brought forth her firstborn son"... From these words Helvidius and other heretics most impiously inferred that the blessed Virgin Mary had other children besides Christ; but St. Jerome shews, by divers examples, that this expression of the Evangelist was a manner of speaking usual among the Hebrews, to denote by the word until, only what is done, without any regard to the future. Thus it is said, Genesis 8. 6 and 7, that Noe sent forth a raven, which went forth, and did not return till the waters were dried up on the earth. That is, did not return any more. Also Isaias 46. 4, God says: I am till you grow old. Who dare infer that God should then cease to be: Also in the first book of Machabees 5. 54, And they went up to mount Sion with joy and gladness, and offered holocausts, because not one of them was slain till they had returned in peace. That is, not one was slain before or after they had returned. God saith to his divine Son: Sit on my right hand till I make thy enemies thy footstool. Shall he sit no longer after his enemies are subdued? Yea and for all eternity. St. Jerome also proves by Scripture examples, that an only begotten son, was also called firstborn, or first begotten: because according to the law, the firstborn males were to be consecrated to God; Sanctify unto me, saith the Lord, every firstborn that openeth the womb among the children of Israel, etc. Ex. 13. 2.

Luke 2
31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all peoples: 32 A light to the revelation of the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel. 33 And his father and mother were wondering at those things which were spoken concerning him. 34 And Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary his mother: Behold this child is set for the fall, and for the resurrection of many in Israel, and for a sign which shall be contradicted; 35 And thy own soul a sword shall pierce, that, out of many hearts, thoughts may be revealed.

Prophecy of Jesus's death and Mary suffering along with Jesus.
 
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Brennin

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Genesis 13:8
So Abram said to Lot, "Let's not have any quarreling between you and me, or between your herdsmen and mine, for we are brothers.

Genesis 14
14 Which when Abram had heard, to wit, that his brother Lot was taken, he numbered of the servants born in his house, three hundred and eighteen well appointed: and pursued them to Dan.

Genesis 14
16 And he brought back all the substance, and Lot his brother, with his substance, the women also and the people.

Luke 8:21
He replied, "My mother and brothers are those who hear God's word and put it into practice."

Matthew 1
25 And he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Bible Commentary:
25 "Till she brought forth her firstborn son"... From these words Helvidius and other heretics most impiously inferred that the blessed Virgin Mary had other children besides Christ; but St. Jerome shews, by divers examples, that this expression of the Evangelist was a manner of speaking usual among the Hebrews, to denote by the word until, only what is done, without any regard to the future. Thus it is said, Genesis 8. 6 and 7, that Noe sent forth a raven, which went forth, and did not return till the waters were dried up on the earth. That is, did not return any more. Also Isaias 46. 4, God says: I am till you grow old. Who dare infer that God should then cease to be: Also in the first book of Machabees 5. 54, And they went up to mount Sion with joy and gladness, and offered holocausts, because not one of them was slain till they had returned in peace. That is, not one was slain before or after they had returned. God saith to his divine Son: Sit on my right hand till I make thy enemies thy footstool. Shall he sit no longer after his enemies are subdued? Yea and for all eternity. St. Jerome also proves by Scripture examples, that an only begotten son, was also called firstborn, or first begotten: because according to the law, the firstborn males were to be consecrated to God; Sanctify unto me, saith the Lord, every firstborn that openeth the womb among the children of Israel, etc. Ex. 13. 2.


Genesis was originally written in Hebrew. The New Testament was not, and there is a word for cousin in Greek that appears therein. Also, Matthew 1:25 does not allow for the interpretation the Romish and Eastern Churches would like to force upon it.
 
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Tdigaetano

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Back on track,
why DID it take so long
to discover this doctrine
everyone?

This Doctrine is very Old goes back to the beginning of Christianity. It's was never put down as official dogma because it was rarely ever disputted. When the Pope had established this Dogma it was either to silence some heresies or it was that the Pope decided there was enough research done and decided to declare it.

The feast of the Immaculate Conception, celebrated on December 8, was established as a universal feast in 1476 by Pope Sixtus IV.

The Immaculate Conception was solemnly defined as a dogma by Pope Pius IX in his constitution Ineffabilis Deus, on December 8, 1854.

So almost 400 years after the declaration of the Feast did the dogma finaly get defined.

But it goes back further then that....

Eadmer, or Edmer (1060–1124), was an English historian, theologian, and ecclesiastic. Eadmer's theological works include the "De conceptione Sanctae Mariae", a tract of much importance for the development of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception

It goes all the way back to the Early Church Fathers after him. As far back as 150 A.D.

Justin Martyr [100-165 A.D.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapters 48

[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course which was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceivedthe word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death.But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy Onebeing born of her is the Son of God. And she replied 'Be it done unto me according to your word' [Luke 1:38](Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 100 [A.D. 155])

Yes this letter was written back in 155 A.D. Here Justin Martyr compairs Mary to Eve. Mary by many of the Early Church fathers viewed her as the new Eve. They Compare Mary to Eve before Eve was lead into sin.

Irenaeus of Lyons [120-180 AD] Adversus Haereses Book III
"Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient,saying, 'Behold, O Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.' Eve, however, was disobedient, and, when yet a virgin, she did not obey. Just as she, who wasthen still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband-for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for,having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children, and it was necessary that they first come to maturity before beginning to multiply; having become disobedient, was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but never the less still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the
obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith" (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189])

In 189 A.D. we have Irenaeus of Lyons going into further detail on Mary and her obedience to the Lord again compairing her with Eve.

St. Ambrose did some studies on De institutione virginis et sanctae Mariae virginitate perpetua ad Eusebium (On the Birth of the Virgin and the Perpetual Virginity of Mary)

When it comes down to Dogma and Doctrine The church compares every new idea or reworked ideas to scripture and tradition and then after enough research is done on a topic it is deemed as a heresy or dogma. The church has almost 2000 years of history of great theologians that dedicated their entire lives to studing every aspect of the Christian Faith. There is no need to rediscover the wheel only to futher define the truth as it is revealed to us through out the ages.
 
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Tdigaetano

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Genesis was originally written in Hebrew. The New Testament was not, and there is a word for cousin in Greek that appears therein. Also, Matthew 1:25 does not allow for the interpretation the Romish and Eastern Churches would like to force upon it.

Then whose interpretation should be forced upon it?
 
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Brennin

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It goes all the way back to the Early Church Fathers after him. As far back as 150 A.D.

Justin Martyr [100-165 A.D.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapters 48

[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course which was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceivedthe word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death.But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy Onebeing born of her is the Son of God. And she replied 'Be it done unto me according to your word' [Luke 1:38](Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 100 [A.D. 155])

Yes this letter was written back in 155 A.D. Here Justin Martyr compairs Mary to Eve. Mary by many of the Early Church fathers viewed her as the new Eve. They Compare Mary to Eve before Eve was lead into sin.

I don't see anything about Mary being immaculately conceived.
 
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Tdigaetano

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No interpretation should be forced on it. Your "tradition" mucks up an otherwise straightforward statement.

Well since it was my "tradition" that formed the bible I think I'll listen to how it explains the scripture and what they mean.

Anyway Back to Mary.....

Ambrose, St [340-397 A.D.] Concerning Virginity (Book II)

"Mary's life should be for you a pictorial image of virginity. Her life is like a mirror reflecting the face of chastity and theform of virtue. Therein you may find a model for your own life. . . showing what to improve, what to imitate, what to holdfast to" (The Virgins 2:2:6 [A.D. 377]).

"The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater [to teach
by example] than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose? What more chaste than she who bore a body without contact with another body? For why should I speak of her other virtues? She was a virgin not only in body but also in mind, who stained the sincerity of its disposition by no guile, who was humble in heart, grave inspeech, prudent in mind, sparing of words, studious in reading, resting her hope not on uncertain riches, but on the prayer of the poor, intent on work, modest in discourse; wont to seek not man but God as the judge of her thoughts, toinjure no one, to have good will towards all, to rise up before her elders, not to envy her equals, to avoid boastfulness, to follow reason, to love virtue.

When did she pain her parent seven by a look? When did she disagree with her neighbors? When did she despise the lowly? When did she avoid the needy? Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through yourservants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a virgin not only undefiled, but a virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin" (Commentary on Psalm 118:22–30 [A.D. 387])
 
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