Immaculate Conception - Why Did It Take 1,854 Years to Discover This Doctrine?

[WarriorAngel]

Psalm 69


8 For your sake I bear insult, shame covers my face. 9 I have become an outcast to my kin, a stranger to my mother's children. 10 5 Because zeal for your house consumes me, I am scorned by those who scorn you. 11 I have wept and fasted, but this led only to scorn. 12 I clothed myself in sackcloth; I became a byword for them. 13 They who sit at the gate gossip about me; drunkards make me the butt of their songs. 14 But I pray to you, LORD, for the time of your favor. God, in your great kindness answer me with your constant help.

Apparently Jesus did say in scriptures, a prophet is not believed in His own town...
Just as this alludes to His alienation, it alludes to the town of His people, and not Mary His Mother.

For the 'alledged' idea James and Jude were His brothers...although what would Mary of Alpheaus think...who gave birth to them....
It is in reference to ALL HIS KIN thru the flesh and nothing more.

 

[Thekla]

What are you talking about? I answered an objection with scripture.

scripture plus speculation ; thought thats your objection to RC,EO

EDIT: to clarify -- the scriptures do not state that Christ left Mary in the care of John "because" of one reason or another.

 

[Catholic Christian]

You are wrong about that as well, despite the absurd claims of the Romish Church to the contrary.

from thefreedictionary.com


Rom·ish (r

m

sh)
adj. Offensive ...relating to the Roman Catholic Church

Please Refrain

 

[Catholic Christian]

Hey Terry,

I have one for you.

Is Psalm 69:8 talking about Mary's other children? Have you studied typology?

I don't know but I'll find out and get back to you tomorrow evening. (I have to call "Catholic Answers Live" at 3pm tomorrow.)

 

[Hentenza]

Psalm 69


8 For your sake I bear insult, shame covers my face. 9 I have become an outcast to my kin, a stranger to my mother's children. 10 5 Because zeal for your house consumes me, I am scorned by those who scorn you. 11 I have wept and fasted, but this led only to scorn. 12 I clothed myself in sackcloth; I became a byword for them. 13 They who sit at the gate gossip about me; drunkards make me the butt of their songs. 14 But I pray to you, LORD, for the time of your favor. God, in your great kindness answer me with your constant help.

Apparently Jesus did say in scriptures, a prophet is not believed in His own town...
Just as this alludes to His alienation, it alludes to the town of His people, and not Mary His Mother.

For the 'alledged' idea James and Jude were His brothers...although what would Mary of Alpheaus think...who gave birth to them....
It is in reference to ALL HIS KIN thru the flesh and nothing more.

Hi WA,

The problem is that this Psalm does not say anything about Jesus prophets not being believed in His town. Jesus quoted this Psalm twice. Care to elaborate on which two verses Jesus quotes?

 

[WarriorAngel]

scripture plus speculation ; thought thats your objection to RC,EO

EDIT: to clarify -- the scriptures do not state that Christ left Mary in the care of John "because" of one reason or another.

Now talk about adding onto history and scriptures, eh?

According to the custom of the Jews, IF there were no siblings, then the Son had to make provisions to ensure His mother would be taken care of due to their death or what not.

If Christ were to dismiss His actual siblings who had all rights to this, then he would have usurped the Laws of His religion and would not have been spotless.

Especially since the Law pertained the 4th Commandment of honoring one's parents.
Which is God's own Law and not a man made custom.

Again, what would Mary of Alphaues think about sharing the birth of her sons, James and Jude with another woman..?

Sure it was common place to call cousins, or close kin brothers and sisters, but there comes a apoint when you have to acknowledge that they had a real mom and dad.....Alphaeus and Mary his wife. [Another Mary]

 

[Brennin]

from thefreedictionary.com


Rom·ish (r

m

sh)
adj. Offensive ...relating to the Roman Catholic Church

Please Refrain

Unlike "Papist," or "Popery," "Romish" is not cause for complaint

 

[WarriorAngel]

Hi WA,

The problem is that this Psalm does not say anything about Jesus prophets not being believed in His town. Jesus quoted this Psalm twice. Care to elaborate on which two verses Jesus quotes?

I dont need to see the psalm, I am going to give you the prophetic outcome of it.

Luke 4
21 And he began to say to them: This day is fulfilled this scripture in your ears. 22 And all gave testimony to him: and they wondered at the words of grace that proceeded from his mouth, and they said: Is not this the son of Joseph? 23 And he said to them: Doubtless you will say to me this similitude: Physician, heal thyself: as great things as we have heard done in Capharnaum, do also here in thy own country.
24 And he said: Amen I say to you, that no prophet is accepted in his own country.

25 In truth I say to you, there were many widows in the days of Elias in Israel, when heaven was shut up three years and six months, when there was a great famine throughout all the earth.
26 And to none of them was Elias sent, but to Sarepta of Sidon, to a widow woman. 27 And there were many lepers in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet: and none of them was cleansed but Naaman the Syrian. 28 And all they in the synagogue, hearing these things, were filled with anger. 29 And they rose up and thrust him out of the city; and they brought him to the brow of the hill, whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong. 30 But he passing through the midst of them, went his way.


Which matters more, the prophecy or the explanation of the prophecy by Christ?

 

[Brennin]

Now talk about adding onto history and scriptures, eh?

According to the custom of the Jews, IF there were no siblings, then the Son had to make provisions to ensure His mother would be taken care of due to their death or what not.

If Christ were to dismiss His actual siblings who had all rights to this, then he would have usurped the Laws of His religion and would not have been spotless.

Especially since the Law pertained the 4th Commandment of honoring one's parents.
Which is God's own Law and not a man made custom.

Again, what would Mary of Alphaues think about sharing the birth of her sons, James and Jude with another woman..?

Sure it was common place to call cousins, or close kin brothers and sisters, but there comes a apoint when you have to acknowledge that they had a real mom and dad.....Alphaeus and Mary his wife. [Another Mary]

That is nonsense, of course. Jesus honored his mother by making sure she was cared for by a believer. There is nothing in the commandment that requires leaving one's mother in the care of another sibling

 

[Brennin]

scripture plus speculation ; thought thats your objection to RC,EO

EDIT: to clarify -- the scriptures do not state that Christ left Mary in the care of John "because" of one reason or another.

I do not elevate my speculation to the level of a doctrinal idol. The only reason I offered that speculation was to counter the anemic argument that if Jesus had brothers, he would not have left his mother in the care of John.

 

[WarriorAngel]

That is nonsense, of course. Jesus honored his mother by making sure she was cared for by a believer. There is nothing in the commandment that requires leaving one's mother in the care of another sibling

WOW...
You really have another Gospel?

First of all, every single reference of his 'brothers and sisters' usually alludes to His cousins, James and Judas [Not Iscariot] so I refer to him as Jude.

And sisters generally were Mary of Magdelene and her sister Martha the sister of Lazareth and so forth.

Basically anyone who He was close to were His brothers and sisters, and that is a fact that they spoke like that.

You will see a reference for cousins in the scriptures as well..however; in that case it was not a close cousin. Whereas Christ grew up in the same town as his kin...cousins and so were called His brothers.

You ahve not a single verse in the entire Bible that shows a geneology lineage of Christ's literal brother and sisters.

Nor do you see any mention of them named when they were in the caravan looking for Him.

You have to create an illusion with todays slang and language to make this up.

Mary of Alphaeus was the rightful mother of James and Jude...and also she was called Mary the mother of Jesus' sister.

So would Mary really have an actual sister named Mary?
Or was she her SIL?

Meaning Jesus' cousins were also His Apostles...if you didnt know.
But anyway, if you want to say they were really His brothers, and they are His Apostles...now what?

They were believers.

 

[Thekla]

I do not elevate my speculation to the level of a doctrinal idol. The only reason I offered that speculation was to counter the anemic argument that if Jesus had brothers, he would not have left his mother in the care of John.

why does Mary the mother of Christ have a sister named Mary ?

 

[Brennin]

WOW...
You really have another Gospel?

First of all, every single reference of his 'brothers and sisters' usually alludes to His cousins, James and Judas [Not Iscariot] so I refer to him as Jude.

And sisters generally were Mary of Magdelene and her sister Martha the sister of Lazareth and so forth.

Basically anyone who He was close to were His brothers and sisters, and that is a fact that they spoke like that.

You will see a reference for cousins in the scriptures as well..however; in that case it was not a close cousin. Whereas Christ grew up in the same town as his kin...cousins and so were called His brothers.

You ahve not a single verse in the entire Bible that shows a geneology lineage of Christ's literal brother and sisters.

Nor do you see any mention of them named when they were in the caravan looking for Him.

You have to create an illusion with todays slang and language to make this up.

Mary of Alphaeus was the rightful mother of James and Jude...and also she was called Mary the mother of Jesus' sister.

So would Mary really have an actual sister named Mary?
Or was she her SIL?

Meaning Jesus' cousins were also His Apostles...if you didnt know.
But anyway, if you want to say they were really His brothers, and they are His Apostles...now what?

They were believers.

That is nonsense, of course. There is a word for cousin ([FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]aneyiov[/FONT]) It was not used of Jesus' brothers because they were actually his brothers, the other gospel of your church notwithstanding.


[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva])))[/FONT]

 

[Brennin]

why does Mary the mother of Christ have a sister named Mary ?

Who cares?

 

[Thekla]

Who cares?

if we care about the term brother, why not the term sister ?

 

[Hentenza]

I dont need to see the psalm, I am going to give you the prophetic outcome of it.

Luke 4
21 And he began to say to them: This day is fulfilled this scripture in your ears. 22 And all gave testimony to him: and they wondered at the words of grace that proceeded from his mouth, and they said: Is not this the son of Joseph? 23 And he said to them: Doubtless you will say to me this similitude: Physician, heal thyself: as great things as we have heard done in Capharnaum, do also here in thy own country.
24 And he said: Amen I say to you, that no prophet is accepted in his own country.

25 In truth I say to you, there were many widows in the days of Elias in Israel, when heaven was shut up three years and six months, when there was a great famine throughout all the earth.
26 And to none of them was Elias sent, but to Sarepta of Sidon, to a widow woman. 27 And there were many lepers in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet: and none of them was cleansed but Naaman the Syrian. 28 And all they in the synagogue, hearing these things, were filled with anger. 29 And they rose up and thrust him out of the city; and they brought him to the brow of the hill, whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong. 30 But he passing through the midst of them, went his way.


Which matters more, the prophecy or the explanation of the prophecy by Christ?

The prophetic outcome of this Psalm has nothing to do with Luke 4.

Hint: Look at John 15:25 and John 2-16-17.

 

[Brennin]

if we care about the term brother, why not the term sister ?

I don't care if Mary had seven sisters, all named Mary (No doubt that would please the RCs.) The fact remains that there is ample scriptural evidence that Mary had marital relations with Joseph and that those relations produced children.

 

[Hentenza]

I don't care if Mary had seven sisters, all named Mary (No doubt that would please the RCs.) The fact remains that there is ample scriptural evidence that Mary had marital relations with Joseph and that those relations produced children.

Well, considering the fact that both Joseph and Mary brought Jesus to Jerusalem when He was 12, I would say that either Joseph and Mary were properly married or I cringe at the alternative.

 

[Thekla]

I don't care if Mary had seven sisters, all named Mary (No doubt that would please the RCs.) The fact remains that there is ample scriptural evidence that Mary had marital relations with Joseph and that those relations produced children.

there is no proof that they did have 'relations'

further, if Mary had a sister named Mary, there is an implication that sibling terms could be applied to those who were not full-blood siblings.

 

[Thekla]

Well, considering the fact that both Joseph and Mary brought Jesus to Jerusalem when He was 12, I would say that either Joseph and Mary were properly married or I cringe at the alternative.

then where the mention of the younger "siblings" ?