Immaculate Conception - Why Did It Take 1,854 Years to Discover This Doctrine?

[Ormly]

Tdigaetano;42532851
Once Baptized you are a member of Christ's church. Mary was baptized at conception by the Lord. She was able to live her entire life from birth to death with out sin....

"Able" is the operative word here because we are all able. Did you ever read the book of "Job".

Mary was baptized at conception by the Lord

This is conjecture and without fact. There is no reason why that should ever be believed.

Mary is a role model of what a follower of Christ should be.... If anyone took a role like Mary's they too would be sinless....

She isn't needed for that. We have the man Jesus. Not only that but you have insufficient on Mary to follow her anywhere.

Mary's role in salvation is showing that Man can be sinless in christ if we follow what he teaches and obey what he commands. This is the power of faith in Christ not to be helpless and sinful but to be alive and sinless.

That's CC rhetoric. She showed man nothing except her accepted virtue.

Mary is the example of a perfect Christian. She went through her entire life following God. We are called to be baptized and take up the same dedication to follow the Lord.

But you don't seem to be able to make up your own mind who it is we are to follow. I know where Jesus went in His earthly life. I know nothing about where Mary went.

 

[Albion]

"Able" is the operative word here because we are all able.

In fact, we are NOT able. All the rest about Mary aside, there is no reason to think that she lived her entire life without sin when no previous person had done that.

This is conjecture and without fact. There is no reason why that should ever be believed.

I agree with that. The "baptised at conception" idea is quite fanciful and without either Biblical basis or support from Tradition. Put another way, I can't think of any Christian denonination or communion which agrees to this notion.

The odd thing to me is the need to make Mary into a superhuman, sinless, co-worker in salvation with Jesus, etc. etc. when considering her instead to be a wonderful example, dedicated to her Lord, and so on--in the manner of some of the greatest saints from the rest of Christian history--should be sufficient to afford her the veneration and regard that all these Marian Doctrines are supposed to accomplish.

 

[Brennin]

I don't turn Mary into a second Jesus.
I petition Mary to pray to Jesus for my short commings that I may be forgiven and restored to a state of Grace that will help me reject sin and continue to follow Christ.

Jesus does not need a helper.

To reject Mary as one of the Lords most perfect creations is to reject the limitless power of the Lord.

That is RC nonsense, of course.

 

[Ormly]

In fact, we are NOT able. All the rest about Mary aside, there is no reason to think that she lived her entire life without sin when no previous person had done that.

I don't agree. Explain Enoch. Explain Joseph, Elijah, Elisha. Explain Job all who lived 'blameless' lives unto God. Living without commiting sin, though "self" will dig it's heels in at every turn, is nevertheless entirely possible. But it never saved anyone. That is what overcoming in this life is to be about, especially after being born again. . . . Life is in the blood and the Blood needed to be shed that ours be made clean.

The odd thing to me is the need to make Mary into a superhuman, sinless, co-worker in salvation with Jesus, etc. etc. when considering her instead to be a wonderful example, dedicated to her Lord, and so on--in the manner of some of the greatest saints from the rest of Christian history--should be sufficient to afford her the veneration and regard that all these Marian Doctrines are supposed to accomplish.

It is all pointless except to detrack from the true gospel of Jesus Christ which respects no demonination of human reasoning that lords itself over humankind.

 

[Albion]

I don't agree. Explain Enoch. Explain Joseph, Elijah, Elisha. Explain Job all who lived 'blameless' lives unto God. Living without commiting sin, though "self" will dig it's heels in at every turn, is nevertheless entirely possible. . . . but it never saved anyone. Life is in the blood and in the Blood needed to be shed.

I would distinguish between generally righteous living and being sinless. The Bible tells us that the just man -- that's the JUST man -- falls seven times a day, so obviously being just or blameless and being sinless are not identical.

The Bible also tells us that all of us are born in sin.

Moreover, if any of those Old Testament figures were actually sinless as you say, they'd have been admitted to heaven upon death which, as we know, was not possible until Christ's sacrifice.

 

[Rick Otto]

For that matter, how about the teaching that "marriage can exist only between a man and a woman". How come no one recognized that fact until the late 20th Century? No one ever uttered those words until then...

How come no one recognizes scripture?
I opened the Strong's OT search page for the word "marriage". At a glance it is obvious that marriage was ever only male/female, one species. And "forbidden" marriages were a fact even in that "narrow" context!
Take A GLANCE, BRO.

 

[Brennin]

How come no one recognizes scripture?
I opened the Strong's OT search page for the word "marriage". At a glance it is obvious that marriage was ever only male/female, one species. And "forbidden" marriages were a fact even in that "narrow" context!
Take A GLANCE, BRO.

He does not need scripture. He has tradition!

 

[Tdigaetano]

Jesus does not need a helper.

Why did Jesus need the apostles?
To have witnesses to the Turth and to go out and spread the Turth in the name of the One true God.

Why did Jesus need Simon to help carry his Cross?
Because Jesus was still 100% Man and his physical body was weak from torture and hadn't rested.

Why did Jesus ask Peter if he loved him?
Jesus Needed Peter to Love him so he could entrust Peter to care for the Christ's Church on Earth to be a guide to lost souls, so they can go to heaven.

Why did Jesus need Paul?
To aid the Apostles in spreading the truth, and proof even the most sinful of people can convert and reject Sin by Trusting in Jesus Christ.

Why did Jesus need Mary?
Jesus the word of God, needed Mary to be Pure inorder to use her as the Ark of the New Covenant to make the word incarnate. Mary Trusted in God, and through the Power of Christ she was made sinless.

Mary's role didn't end with the Birth of Christ, She had to raise him from a child to an adult. Then after Christ was an adult Mary's role still continued when Christ died for us on the Cross Mary was with him suffering with him as she watched her only son Die for all mankind.

Mary is in no way a god... Mary is one of the most devout followers of Christ and all Generations will call Her Blessed.

 

[Ormly]

[

quote=Albion;42545294]

I would distinguish between generally righteous living and being sinless. The Bible tells us that the just man -- that's the JUST man -- falls seven times a day, so obviously being just or blameless and being sinless are not identical.

where does it say that and what then is blameless-ness to be about?

The Bible also tells us that all of us are born in sin.

Not relevant to what I wrote or the issue of man's capability to live sinlessly/righteously.

Moreover, if any of those Old Testament figures were actually sinless as you say, they'd have been admitted to heaven upon death which, as we know, was not possible until Christ's sacrifice.

How about re-reading my post

 

[Brennin]

Jesus does not need a helper.

Why did Jesus need the apostles?

Because he started a Church on earth. He does not need a helper to hear prayers in heaven.

Why did Jesus need Mary?
Jesus the word of God, needed Mary to be Pure inorder to use her as the Ark of the New Covenant to make the word incarnate. Mary Trusted in God, and through the Power of Christ she was made sinless.

Mary's role didn't end with the Birth of Christ, She had to raise him from a child to an adult. Then after Christ was an adult Mary's role still continued when Christ died for us on the Cross Mary was with him suffering with him as she watched her only son Die for all mankind.

All believers are made "sinless" through Christ, who was Mary's firstborn, not only, child.

 

[Albion]

where does it say that

Poverbs 24:16

and what then is blameless-ness to be about?

Then we'll have to discuss that. But we know that it isn't to be sinless.

How about re-reading my post

You asked about a list of OT personalities you considered sinless. I covered them in my answer.

 

[Albion]

All believers are made "sinless" through Christ, who was Mary's firstborn, not only, child.

NO. All believers are forgiven, not made sinless.

 

[Ormly]

Poverbs 24:16

Thats a stretch to make it mean sin. Sorry. Error in judgement doesn't necessarilly carry with it sin to be the cause. Abraham comes quickly to mind.

Then we'll have to discuss that. But we know that it isn't to be sinless.

We know no such thing.

You asked about a list of OT personalities you considered sinless. I covered them in my answer.

And I don't agree. We'll have to leave it at that.

 

[Brennin]

NO. All believers are forgiven, not made sinless.

I used scare quotes for a reason. I was trying to make a point using the same language as the poster to whom I responded.

 

[Ormly]

All believers aren't born again. . . . or maybe it is all confessors aren't born again. I get it confused which ones are and which ones aren't sometimes

 

[Albion]

Thats a stretch to make it mean sin. Sorry. Error in judgement doesn't necessarilly carry with it sin to be the cause.

When scripture speaks of falls or falling, it doesn't mean I'd have been better off taking the later bus. It means sin. But it also helps to know what sin is. As the Bible also teaches, ANY falling short of perfection is sin, even small slips.

We know no such thing.

I've just shown it by several Bible verses. Ignore them if you wish; I just wanted to show what the Bible's teaching on sin is.

 

[Albion]

All believers aren't born again. . . . or maybe it is all confessors aren't born again. I get it confused which ones are and which ones aren't sometimes

When we use the term believer in this kind of discussion, it means those who have been born again, not one who affirms Christ as a nice teacher, great moralist, or anything else that makes the 'believer' short of being a disciple in the real sense.

 

[Ormly]

When scripture speaks of falls or falling, it doesn't mean I'd have been better off taking the later bus. It means sin. But it also helps to know what sin is. As the Bible also teaches, ANY falling short of perfection is sin, even small slips.

Again, you don't see it. Falling short of perfection was always a result of sins penalty, not necessarilly sins commited, as I stated earlier that you didn't read properly. The penalty that forbid access to God was payed by Jesus making possible the way of perfection unto the Father as Jesus demonstrated by His life as a pattern for us to follow and by His shed Blood enabling us to what the OT saints could never have arrived at by living sinlessly, i.e., the actual presence of God upon their death.

I've just shown it by several Bible verses. Ignore them if you wish; I just wanted to show what the Bible's teaching on sin is.

You arrogance I can do with out. You have demonstrated you don't understand the distinctions clearly enough that must be made to understand the complete message of salvation.

 

[Tdigaetano]

Because he started a Church on earth. He does not need a helper to hear prayers in heaven.

Your right he doesn't need a helper to hear prayers in heaven, but he is more inclined to respond to the prayers of a righteous person then an unrighteous person. When we pray to Mary or the Saints we are asking them to pray with us to Jesus along with us.

You might argue that people in heaven can't hear you... I would ask how do you know that... When we die we don't fall asleep, we don't vanish, We are either brought back to life by holding on to our Faith in Christ or we are cast into hell by rejecting our faith in Christ.

All believers are made "sinless" through Christ, who was Mary's firstborn, not only, child.

That is the purpose of baptism to be made sinless through Christ, but a believer can still fall away from Christ by falling into sin.

But Jesus is Mary's only Child. If Mary did have other children then Jesus would not have given custody to John to take care of her. Unless Jesus ment to insult his brothers...but Jesus wouldn't have done that. If your looking at translation of previous passages in the Gosples about brothers and sisters of Christ. These could just be close followers of Christ or even close family out side of the western look of the nuclear family of Mom, dad, brothers and sisters.

 

[Ormly]

Your right he doesn't need a helper to hear prayers in heaven, but he is more inclined to respond to the prayers of a righteous person then an unrighteous person. When we pray to Mary or the Saints we are asking them to pray with us to Jesus along with us.

How do you know who is righteous and who isn't that you can say only dead saints are righteous enough; more righteous than the living ones?