Immaculate Conception - Why Did It Take 1,854 Years to Discover This Doctrine?

[Catholic Christian]

There's actually biblical support for the trinity and asking Him into your heart.

Well, there's Biblical support for the Immaculate Conception too. So where does that leave us?

 

[mont974x4]

Well, there's Biblical support for the Immaculate Conception too. So where does that leave us?

No, there isn't.

I'm sorry but after studying the original Greek I have to conclude that the passage is twisted to support a false doctine. Mary was a virgin, until after Jesus was born, but she was not sinless.

 

[Catholic Christian]

No, there isn't.

I'm sorry but after studying the original Greek I have to conclude that the passage is twisted to support a false doctine. Mary was a virgin, until after Jesus was born, but she was not sinless.

No doctrine is based on just one passage.

 

[Brennin]

Well, there's Biblical support for the Immaculate Conception too.

Not in the Greek New Testament.

 

[sunlover1]

No doctrine is based on just one passage.

Absolutely, well except for the
peter is the rock passage?

 

[mont974x4]

"No true doctrine is based on a single verse" would be more accurate.

 

[Catholic Christian]

"No true doctrine is based on a single verse" would be more accurate.

okay

 

[Tdigaetano]

Now we're going back to what other men
believed. When I asked, "Shall we take a look",
I meant at the Scripture.

For instance this passage:
What does this mean?

Wherefore,
as by one man sin entered into the world,
and death by sin;
and so death passed upon all men,
for that all have sinned...


So why not this doctrine?
It contradicts the Bible,
according to the above
passage right?

sunlover

This is going back to the theology of original sin. Adams sin entered the world and caused death by this sin. And through this original sin death is passed to all men through the original sin. If you apply the theology you are trying to imply it would also imply that Jesus sinned also are you calling Jesus, Our God who became Man a sinner?

In verse:
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned through one; much more they who receive abundance of grace, and of the gift, and of justice, shall reign in life through one, Jesus Christ.

In baptism we are not baptised by water we are baptised by the holy spirit our sins are forgiven and we are born anew into Christ. Mary recieved this abundance of grace at her conception. Jesus interceeded at her creation and made her perfect from the start in preperation for God to become incarnate.

This seems to be hard for people to understand who thing that Sin is ok and its ok to keep sinning because we have Jesus's "grace" to make us look good to God.

The purpose for Christ was to show his love to us all and open our hearts to the love of our creator, that he was willing to become human and die for this love....

sin
n. 1. A transgression of a religious or moral law, especially when deliberate.
2. Theology a. Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God.
b. A condition of estrangement from God resulting from such disobedience.

3. Something regarded as being shameful, deplorable, or utterly wrong.


To say you are part of the body of Christ and continue to sin is showing that Christ's death for us was in vain. As children of God we are to be obedient to our Lord and not continue to seperate ourselves from him. Christ has opened the gates of heaven for all those that are baptised in the crucifiction of our Lord and continue to reject sin in his name. To be Christian one has to accept Christ as Lord and reject sin. A True Christian can not serve both Christ and Sin.

Mary is the first true Christian because of how God created her for the preperation for the Word to become Flesh.

This doctrine is not from one line in scripture but from several things in scripture.

Yes Luke 1:28 greek wording for Full of Grace is a major part of this doctrine, but also Mary is viewed as the Ark of the New Covenant. The old Ark was made of incorruptible wood as stayed in Deuteronomy 10:3 why would the Ark of the New Covenant not be incorrupt in the same way? In Luke 1:47, Mary proclaims: "My spirit has rejoiced in God my Saviour." This is referred to as Mary's pre-redemption by Christ.

 

[Hentenza]

This is going back to the theology of original sin. Adams sin entered the world and caused death by this sin. And through this original sin death is passed to all men through the original sin. If you apply the theology you are trying to imply it would also imply that Jesus sinned also are you calling Jesus, Our God who became Man a sinner?

In verse:
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned through one; much more they who receive abundance of grace, and of the gift, and of justice, shall reign in life through one, Jesus Christ.

In baptism we are not baptised by water we are baptised by the holy spirit our sins are forgiven and we are born anew into Christ. Mary recieved this abundance of grace at her conception. Jesus interceeded at her creation and made her perfect from the start in preperation for God to become incarnate.

This seems to be hard for people to understand who thing that Sin is ok and its ok to keep sinning because we have Jesus's "grace" to make us look good to God.

The purpose for Christ was to show his love to us all and open our hearts to the love of our creator, that he was willing to become human and die for this love....

sin
n. 1. A transgression of a religious or moral law, especially when deliberate.
2. Theology a. Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God.
b. A condition of estrangement from God resulting from such disobedience.

3. Something regarded as being shameful, deplorable, or utterly wrong.


To say you are part of the body of Christ and continue to sin is showing that Christ's death for us was in vain. As children of God we are to be obedient to our Lord and not continue to seperate ourselves from him. Christ has opened the gates of heaven for all those that are baptised in the crucifiction of our Lord and continue to reject sin in his name. To be Christian one has to accept Christ as Lord and reject sin. A True Christian can not serve both Christ and Sin.

Mary is the first true Christian because of how God created her for the preperation for the Word to become Flesh.

This doctrine is not from one line in scripture but from several things in scripture.

Yes Luke 1:28 greek wording for Full of Grace is a major part of this doctrine, but also Mary is viewed as the Ark of the New Covenant. The old Ark was made of incorruptible wood as stayed in Deuteronomy 10:3 why would the Ark of the New Covenant not be incorrupt in the same way? In Luke 1:47, Mary proclaims: "My spirit has rejoiced in God my Saviour." This is referred to as Mary's pre-redemption by Christ.

Jesus could not and did not sin.
Heb 4:15
15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.

James 1:13
13When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;



There is no scriptural evidence that Mary did not sin. As a matter of fact, Mary said that she needed a savior (Luke 1:46). One needs a savior if one needs to be saved. One needs to be saved because one have sinned. One has sinned because one is human. Mary was human, sinned, and needed a savior to repent.

Christ died for all of us, including his own mother.

 

[Tdigaetano]

Jesus could not and did not sin.
Heb 4:15
15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.

James 1:13
13When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;



There is no scriptural evidence that Mary did not sin. As a matter of fact, Mary said that she needed a savior (Luke 1:46). One needs a savior if one needs to be saved. One needs to be saved because one have sinned. One has sinned because one is human. Mary was human, sinned, and needed a savior to repent.

Christ died for all of us, including his own mother.

I'm not saying Mary didn't need a Savior... Abraham, Moses, David, Soloman, etc... All needed a savior. Every human needs a savior. So of course Mary needed a savior... I was just pointing out the use of scripture where "all men have sinned" is written did Jesus not become man? So if all Men have sinned then would Jesus not have been part of "all men" or is there an exception for some "men".

What the Catholic Church has declaried that Jesus, at the moment of Mary's conception in her mother's womb, wiped away all her sin and filled her with Grace, this is a soul act of the saving power of Jesus Christ before he became flesh and to prepare the way for him.

The problem that I am stateing is today many people who claim to be Christians don't reject sin instead they accept it as part of life and expect to recieve God's free gift of Grace while they continue to live in sin.

 

[sunlover1]

I'm not saying Mary didn't need a Savior... Abraham, Moses, David, Soloman, etc... All needed a savior. Every human needs a savior. So of course Mary needed a savior... I was just pointing out the use of scripture where "all men have sinned" is written did Jesus not become man? So if all Men have sinned then would Jesus not have been part of "all men" or is there an exception for some "men".

And this is certainly something
that we should deal with.
Jesus is God. So would we
say that Jesus died that all
men (including Himself) might
be saved? Or do we just know that
Jesus isnt at all like "all men"?
But we do know that He did indeed
die for all right?

What the Catholic Church has declaried that Jesus, at the moment of Mary's conception in her mother's womb, wiped away all her sin and filled her with Grace, this is a soul act of the saving power of Jesus Christ before he became flesh and to prepare the way for him.

And I can understand how one could come
to this conclusion.
But wiped away all of her sin?
Yes, the blood of Jesus does this.
But it's a spiritual, rather than physical
cleansing.
And it involves the recipient being
cognizant of it, doesnt it?

God is in me. But that doesnt
mean that I've never sinned
while He's in me.

The problem that I am stateing is today many people who claim to be Christians don't reject sin instead they accept it as part of life and expect to recieve God's free gift of Grace while they continue to live in sin.

Not all understand the power of sin,
nor the power of God.
They're maybe 'lukewarm'?

just thinking,
sunlover

 

[Tdigaetano]

And this is certainly something
that we should deal with.
Jesus is God. So would we
say that Jesus died that all
men (including Himself) might
be saved? Or do we just know that
Jesus isnt at all like "all men"?
But we do know that He did indeed
die for all right?

Yes he did Die for all, but not all accept his teachings.

And I can understand how one could come
to this conclusion.
But wiped away all of her sin?
Yes, the blood of Jesus does this.
But it's a spiritual, rather than physical
cleansing.
And it involves the recipient being
cognizant of it, doesnt it?

Why does the recipient have to be cognizant of it? People that suffer from mental illnesses or other lack of being able to understand does Jesus reject them because they lack the ability to understand? When God created Adam and Eve did they understand God's saving grace? Why did Jesus tell his apostles to go out and baptize in the name of the father son and holy spirit?

God is in me. But that doesnt
mean that I've never sinned
while He's in me.


Not all understand the power of sin,
nor the power of God.
They're maybe 'lukewarm'?

just thinking,
sunlover

Since God is in you and you sin how do you think that makes God feel? inadequate?

The point is God is very adequate it is we who are inadequate and we need to trust in the Lord and move away from sin...

We need to seperate ourselves from sin not for fear of hell but for fear that we will be cast into the shadows away from God's limitless love.

Mary did just this she was given God's Full Grace at her Conception and lived her entire life in God's limitless Love, she didn't sin because she knew that if she did she would be sperated from the Love of God. This faithfulness bestowed onto Mary from God allowed her to bring into this world our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Sin is us seperating ourselves from the Love of God not God seperating himself from us.

 

[Rhamiel]

Tdigaetano and sunlover, you are bring about some very interesting points, thank you

 

[Ormly]

Yes he did Die for all, but not all accept his teachings.

In actuality, they don't accept His teachings because they don't accept Him. It can't be any other way.

"And why call me, Lord, Lord, and do not do the things which I say?" Luke 6:46 (KJV)

 

[Tdigaetano]

In actuality, they don't accept His teachings because they don't accept Him. It can't be any other way.

"And why call me, Lord, Lord, and do not do the things which I say?" Luke 6:46 (KJV)

?

So one can accept the Lord and reject his teachings and be ok?

Instead of

One can accept his teachings and reject the Lord and not be ok?

Both of these are not Ok you can't reject his teachings and be ok.... you can't reject him and be ok... You have to accept both inorder to be ok. You can't choose the part of Christ you like the best and ignore the other parts and be ok.

There are three different types of Law mentioned in the Bible... One being the Law of Moses, One being the Law of what ever government you live under, and One the Law of God.

Luke 16:16-17
16"The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. 17It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

The Law of Moses Jesus explains to have been written because of the hardend hearts of the Jews.

Or mayby you refute Luke 16:16-17 with Matthew5: 17-19

Matthew 5:1719
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

You look at the phrase until everything is accomplished to mean mean when Jesus died on the cross and said "its finished" to mean the Law had been fullfilled and we are not bound by it.

This phrase is refering to the end of everything. When Heaven and Earth disapper and are recreated and combined in the second ressurection of the Dead where all who died in Christ will be risen to enternal life.

By "its finished" Jesus before he assended to heaven told his apostles in Luke 24:44

Luke 24:44
44He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."

Jesus had fulfilled the Law about the Messiah. Jesus did not do away with the Law only completed the part about the comming of a Savior. This was to show that there will be no other Messiah because Jesus is the Christ.

 

[lionroar0]

Christians?? You mean Catholics, don't you?

No, I mean also the EOC and the OO in addition to Catholics.
For now 2000yrs+ billions of christians have had their intercessions answered when asking Saints to pray with and for them.

It is illogical to ignore their witness.

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

Not outrageous, just the truth. Mary's assistance in prayer is not needed, has never been needed, and never will be needed.

What is illogical is to dismiss the witness of billions of christians for now 2000yrs+ years that contradict your position.

The truth is quite obvious when honestly looking at the facts.

Peace

 

[mont974x4]

2000 years is a long time to be wrong. Good thing God is longsuffering.

 

[lionroar0]

What is outragious is the unbiblical worship/veneration of a person, attributing honor and glory to her that belongs to Christ alone.

I agree.

Peace

 

[Brennin]

What is illogical is to dismiss the witness of billions of christians for now 2000yrs+ years that contradict your position.

The truth is quite obvious when honestly looking at the facts.

Peace

More like 1600+ years. The thing about false doctrine is that it does not improve with age. Nor does it improve with the number of adherents.